Word of Wisdom question

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

One of my kids thinks that is alright to put coffee in baked items. I feel it is against the word of wisdom, but my wife thinks it is ok. I have spent my entire 47 years avoiding coffee, tea and alcohol.

Any thoughts?

[Vort]

I agree with you. Since the phrase "hot drinks" was officially interpreted as referring to coffee and tea, in my mind I replace "hot drinks" with "coffee and tea". That would seem to disallow consumption of those products, whatever their final form.

I don't see it as a huge deal, but if there are spiritual blessings associated with keeping the Word of Wisdom—which obviously I think there are—finding an excuse to "eat" coffee instead of drinking it would not help to secure those blessings.

[Fether]

Makes sense. I smoke cigars through my nose to avoid breaking the word of wisdom

[scottyg]

I do not think it is okay at all. Similar to what Vort said, many people try to find ways around commandments, and focusing in on the "drink" aspect of section 89 is one way that can occur. What if I decided to pour rum on my pancakes in the morning? I'm not "drinking" it...so it must be okay right? Hypothetically, even if it isn't wrong, I choose to avoid the appearance of evil. Many larger sins and misdeeds have come from a path that started with less. To me, rationalization is one's way of making reality fit their desired narrative.

[Just_A_Guy]

There is a story of President McKay being served rum cake and indulging enthusiastically, to the consternation of his entourage; whereupon he declared that the WoW prohibited *drinking* alcohol, not *eating* it.

Those who know me know I’m not typically a fan of using such legalistic gnat-straining when discussing which Gospel-relates behavioral standards one might be justified in ignoring.  As for me personally, I choose not to eat coffee or alcohol.  But given the conflicting precedent, I have a hard time getting too offended when I see another Church member eating rum cake, or Flemish stew, or mocha ice cream.

Edited March 17, 2019 by Just_A_Guy

[Guest MormonGator]

My first time visiting a members house I was shocked that they had a full bottle of Jack Daniels in their kitchen. It was used to add flavor to the steaks they were making. I didn't care, but it was so surprising. This was the RS president and the husband was on the bishopric! 

[unixknight]

There's a reason we don't have an explicit list of every possible circumstance.  It's up to us, individually, to do the best we can to follow the WoW sincerely.  If somebody's using legalistic technicalities, that just means that on some level they feel  they probably shouldn't do it but are looking to justify it.  Meanwhile, someone else might sincerely believe it's fine.  Which do you supposed would be judged more sternly? 

I personally know where I draw the line, but somebody else may draw it either more permissively or less.  It doesn't make either of us more spiritual than the other, assuming we're both honestly doing our best according to our understanding.

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

29 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

My first time visiting a members house I was shocked that they had a full bottle of Jack Daniels in their kitchen. It was used to add flavor to the steaks they were making. I didn't care, but it was so surprising. This was the RS president and the husband was on the bishopric! 

https://whatscookingamerica.net/Q-A/AlcoholEvap.htm

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

26 minutes ago, unixknight said:

There's a reason we don't have an explicit list of every possible circumstance.  It's up to us, individually, to do the best we can to follow the WoW sincerely.  If somebody's using legalistic technicalities, that just means that on some level they feel  they probably shouldn't do it but are looking to justify it.  Meanwhile, someone else might sincerely believe it's fine.  Which do you supposed would be judged more sternly? 

I personally know where I draw the line, but somebody else may draw it either more permissively or less.  It doesn't make either of us more spiritual than the other, assuming we're both honestly doing our best according to our understanding.

Yeah, I told them not to expect me to eat any of it.

[Guest MormonGator]

34 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

https://whatscookingamerica.net/Q-A/AlcoholEvap.htm

Tell them, not me. I was the innocent, naive two-weeks-in-the-church young pup. They corrupted me! 

[niyr]

1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

There is a story of President McKay being served rum cake and indulging enthusiastically, to the consternation of his entourage; whereupon he declared that the WoW prohibited *drinking* alcohol, not *eating* it.

Those who know me know I’m not typically a fan of using such legalistic gnat-straining when discussing which Gospel-relates behavioral standards one might be justified in ignoring.  As for me personally, I choose not to eat coffee or alcohol.  But given the conflicting precedent, I have a hard time getting too offended when I see another Church member eating rum cake, or Flemish stew, or mocha ice cream.

A - it's a story

B - alcohol cooks out, so he wouldn't have been ingesting any alcohol. 

[Just_A_Guy]

30 minutes ago, niyr said:

A - it's a story

B - alcohol cooks out, so he wouldn't have been ingesting any alcohol. 

The notion of alcohol cooking out is certainly popular, but it is scientifically unsupported. The alcohol content does reduce over time, but it would take much more time to cook off entirely than most foods actually spend in the oven or in the stovetop.

Edited March 17, 2019 by Just_A_Guy

[Fether]

2 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

There is a story of President McKay being served rum cake and indulging enthusiastically, to the consternation of his entourage; whereupon he declared that the WoW prohibited *drinking* alcohol, not *eating* it.

My natural response to when someone begins their response with “there is a story of...” is What is the source?

Brigham young has been quoted saying many things... some of the most popular are fabrications.

[Just_A_Guy]

1 minute ago, Fether said:

My natural response to when someone begins their response with “there is a story of...” is What is the source?

Brigham young has been quoted saying many things... some of the most popular are fabrications.

I believe this anecdote with McKay turns up in Mary Jane Woodger’s biography of him, published by Covenant Books around 2003-2004.

Edited March 17, 2019 by Just_A_Guy

[Fether]

1 minute ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I believe this anecdote with McKay turns up in Mary Jane Woodger’s biography of him, published by Covenant Books around 2003-2004.

Found it!

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/373460.David_O_McKay_and_the_Rise_of_Modern_Mormonism

[Just_A_Guy]

2 minutes ago, Fether said:

Found it!

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/373460.David_O_McKay_and_the_Rise_of_Modern_Mormonism

Prince has it as well, and most of the online refs I see cite him.  But my recollection is that the first exposure I had with the story came via Woodger; I was interning at Covenant in 2004 and was involved in preparing her manuscript for publication.  

Then again, that was fifteen years ago . . . (Good gravy, I’m getting old!)

[Vort]

34 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Prince has it as well

Gregory Prince is an ax-grinder. I would not accept any LDS historical detail on his word alone.

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

1 hour ago, niyr said:

A - it's a story

B - alcohol cooks out, so he wouldn't have been ingesting any alcohol. 

 

1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

The notion of alcohol cooking out is certainly popular, but it is scientifically unsupported. The alcohol content does reduce over time, but it would take much more time to cook off entirely than most foods actually spend in the oven or in the stovetop.

https://whatscookingamerica.net/Q-A/AlcoholEvap.htm

[Maureen]

4 hours ago, scottyg said:

...What if I decided to pour rum on my pancakes in the morning?...

You'ld have very soggy pancakes.

M.

[Just_A_Guy]

21 minutes ago, Maureen said:

You'ld have very soggy pancakes.

M.

But why is the rum gone?

[Traveler]

5 hours ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

One of my kids thinks that is alright to put coffee in baked items. I feel it is against the word of wisdom, but my wife thinks it is ok. I have spent my entire 47 years avoiding coffee, tea and alcohol.

Any thoughts?

Often we judge others by standards we make for ourselves.  I once ordered a mocha flavored desert - after the first bite I remarked it tasted horrible when someone informed it that it contained coffee.  I did not take another bite and to be honest I do not understand why anyone would like a coffee flavor unless they were addicted to the drug.

My personal covenant includes caffeine in sodas but I would not drink any flavored soda in the first place and I do not understand why anyone would.  Even though my wife loves diet Coke.  I believe I have been blessed for keeping my W of W covenants.   I am in my 70's and can still draft and keep up with young semi-pro cyclists which is interesting because just about every other cyclists I know of, that has competed, uses caffeine for energy and competition - I do not and never have.  I never earned gold - but I have earned bronze when I was much younger.  And I believe that my health at my age is because of my W of W covenant.  I would not be surprised if President Nelson has a similar W of W covenant that contributes to his health.

I am not concerned about anyone else's W of W covenant - just whatever it is that they remain faithful throughout their entire life.  In general I believe discipline and covenant go hand in hand - and if someone is interested in increasing their wisdom that they first consider increasing their personal discipline concerning any covenant.  My experience and observations is that those that decrease their discipline concerning any covenant - is that their wisdom seems to get seriously derailed corresponding directly to their decrease in discipline. 

 

The Traveler

[Maureen]

25 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Often we judge others by standards we make for ourselves.  I once ordered a mocha flavored desert - after the first bite I remarked it tasted horrible when someone informed it that it contained coffee.  I did not take another bite and to be honest I do not understand why anyone would like a coffee flavor unless they were addicted to the drug....

That is ridiculous. Coffee is not the only kind of food that is bitter; brussel sprouts, cabbage, walnuts, cranberries fall into the bitter category. A person's taste buds are usually what determine if a person will like a bitter tasting food.

M. 

Edited March 18, 2019 by Maureen

[WandererO]

I think the word of wisdom is one of the hardest standards to truly understand. It requires us to define what "hot drink" is and many other forms of things in this world that now COULD possibly just maybe qualify. There is alcohol in vanilla and I for one love cookie dough but what to do about not baking out the vanilla? I have had young women leaders that have drank herbal tea all their lifes, only to hear of ones opinion on it being coffee and tea in any form that is bad and they begin to doubt their ability to drink herbal. Some teas are medical, some are very very cultural which makes it hard to teach why it should be taken out of an individuals diet. I have been told by different bishops some very different things. Which isn't hard to imagine because the guidelines are so difficult to find clear cut answers that makes sense for all things. What most of it has boiled down to is to seek guidance for yourself through prayer and other divine sources if your course of action is following the standard. If you get the impression that your medical herbal tea is fine then continue to drink it. If you feel through study that it would be best to stay on the safe side then avoid any form that could be breaking the word of wisdom.. even if it does mean giving up vanilla in your no-bake cookies 😢    lol   

In summary, none of us are going to have clear cut answers. Hopefully, personal inspiration helps.

[CV75]

15 hours ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

One of my kids thinks that is alright to put coffee in baked items. I feel it is against the word of wisdom, but my wife thinks it is ok. I have spent my entire 47 years avoiding coffee, tea and alcohol.

Any thoughts?

I personally would avoid it but if the quantity is so small there is no direct effect (as with drinking a cup), and if it is necessary for the recipe, I don't see any disobedience. Like having a drizzle of creme de menthe on ice cream. I think it is far worse to justify a small sip of a cup because you miss it.

[scottyg]

15 hours ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

https://whatscookingamerica.net/Q-A/AlcoholEvap.htm

Yeah, most people mistakenly assume that all of the alcohol cooks out when it is heated for cooking. Not true. I also agree with what others have said. We all know where to draw the line, and if in doubt, pray about it. What is it in coffee that makes it bad? Many in the church have their own thoughts, but perhaps we shouldn't ingest it simply because the Lord has asked us not to.