Vort

It's hard to stay non-partisan in a heavily polarized environment

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Guest MormonGator
Just now, Just_A_Guy said:

Knock yourself out.  :D 

But the one thing you can’t honestly say, is that I refused to answer the question. 

All of my indiscretions are public. I'll freely admit them, and I'm proud of most of them. 😉

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Guest MormonGator
1 minute ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Including Budapest, 1997?

Especially Budapest. 

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2 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Especially Budapest. 

WHAT?! With the blood of all those orphans...?

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Guest MormonGator
20 minutes ago, Vort said:

WHAT?! With the blood of all those orphans...?

I thought he was talking about my spring break years. Not my genocide years. @Midwest LDS, you aren't doing a good job of keeping my war crimes private. I need a new propaganda minster. @mirkwood, take him to the guillotine!   

Edited by MormonGator

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8 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I thought he was talking about my spring break years. Not my genocide years. @Midwest LDS, you aren't doing a good job of keeping my war crimes private. I need a new propaganda minster. @mirkwood, take him to the guillotine!   

Hey you were the one who insisted you needed  to try to conquer Russia. I pointed out that you weren't a Mongol and that everyone else has a bad track record with that goal but you insisted. Don't expect me to testify at your Hague trial.

Edited by Midwest LDS

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8 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I thought he was talking about my spring break years. Not my genocide years. @Midwest LDS, you aren't doing a good job of keeping my war crimes private. I need a new propaganda minster. @mirkwood, take him to the guillotine!   

Meh. To be fair, it wasn't your fault that all those terrorists were orphans, and the fact that they were all donating blood isn't really relevant. Remark withdrawn.

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2 minutes ago, Midwest LDS said:

Don't expect me to testify at your Hague trial.

I don't expect you to testify at all, son. 

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2 minutes ago, Vort said:

Meh. To be fair, it wasn't your fault that all those terrorists were orphans, and the fact that they were all donating blood isn't really relevant. Remark withdrawn.

See, I was told that the orphans were all zombies.  Just goes to show, with some people . . .

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Guest MormonGator
4 minutes ago, Vort said:

Remark withdrawn.

Execution orders withdrawn. 

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Guest MormonGator
16 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

Crap, four hours too late.

It's a death row pardon, two minutes too late. 

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On 4/4/2020 at 11:23 PM, Vort said:

Longtime TH members will perhaps remember how NOT pro-Trump I was four years ago. I believe the best thing I had to say about the man was that he was a much less evil choice than Hillary Clinton. Damning by faint praise, indeed.

That was then. This is now. What a difference four years can make.

Not that I'm a huge Donald lover. While I do not find him nearly as repulsive as I did four years ago, I can't pretend he's my top choice. He's vulgar, he's intentionally divisive, he talks and acts like a junior high school wannabe bully. Frankly, he has invited much of the media criticism he gets. And he cannot possibly pretend to fiscal conservatism when he doesn't care a whit about budget concerns or a crushing deficit that, if we started right now working toward reducing it, our great-grandchildren would pay off.

But Trump has done some good and even remarkable things. He has shown some real leadership, at times at least. If he doesn't portray the statesman as well as Obama sometimes did, perhaps that's because he's less fundamentally dishonest than Obama is.

Certainly no reasonable person can pretend that the mainstream media has not taken a decisive stand against him, to the point that they no longer even have a pretense of objectivity in their reporting. In their eyes, Trump is Hitler, and the media is doing their patriotic duty in slandering him at every turn, shamelessly propagandizing even worldwide disasters, and with no scruples about misrepresenting and outright lying about things if it furthers their holy agenda.

My extreme distaste for the media and those who run that monster machine actually pushes me into Trump's camp, a thing I might not have believed possible four years ago. This is not because Trump is so virtuous, but because his haters are so unbelievably vile. I think I'm at least as resistant to kneejerk reactionism as the average American, and probably quite a bit more than average. If I find myself being polarized by the bitter hatred of society (read: the political left, primarily), what hope is there that the American people as a whole can rise above it?

Maybe what we need is a really good, deadly epidemic to stop all our squabbling. But when I look at what the media stands for and the fact that they're puppets of the political left, how do I stop "squabbling" with those who actively seek to undermine marriage and literally kill babies? How do you compromise with Satan or with those who openly preach his version of good news?

Is there another way of viewing these events and our situation that bypasses this conclusion? Real question.

I've been a big fan of Trump for 20 years.  I dealt with him on a deal in New Jersey where he now has one of his country clubs.  We thought we were pretty sophisticated and had looked at all the deal points.  When Donald Trump got involved he made so many observations that we hadn't considered that I felt way out of his league.  He made the deal far better than it was before.  He's always been critical of the way this country has been run.  Watch old footage of him speaking about immigration, trade, federal spending - way back in the 80's.  He has been completely consistent.  How anyone could vote for Hillary or whichever dufus the Democrats put up this time is beyond me.

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I have struggled mightily with the OP topic, in ways I'm not going to go into.

Overall, I think politics and our LDS membership are bad combinations. It is highly inappropriate to discuss politics in church - you will certainly offend someone, and nothing will drive the Spirit away faster.

I think we should realize that politics is a worldly thing. We should rise above the mere philosophies and ideologies of the world. We can think higher than that - our gospel has shown us the way. 

There is good in most or all parties. Most people who follow a certain ideology or party do so because it focuses on things they think are the priorities. We all want basically the same end-goals - a safe, free, prosperous world. We just differ on how to get there.

I'm certain that if people sat down, left their ideologies at the door, and practiced Steven Covey's principles (seek first to understand, etc.) - then most reasonable people could arrive at constructive compromises and pragmatic solutions to problems.

Besides ideological us vs them thinking, I think the biggest problem now is that people are poorly informed about issues, or only hear one side of the arguments.

Also, the media and many of our leaders are actively trying to divide us and encourage partisan fighting. Here is an excellent book about that: 

Hate Inc.: Why Today's Media Makes Us Despise One Another, by Matt Taibbi. https://www.amazon.com/Hate-Inc-Todays-Despise-Another/dp/B0854P6WHH/.

A fascinating interview with the author: 
How The Press Makes Us Hate Each Other, https://radiowest.kuer.org/post/how-press-makes-us-hate-each-other

As far as the media in general:

Graph: How Biased is Your Favorite News Source? 
https://bigthink.com/politics-current-affairs/media-bias-chart

Edited by tesuji

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On 4/11/2020 at 10:31 AM, tesuji said:

I have struggled mightily with the OP topic, in ways I'm not going to go into.

Overall, I think politics and our LDS membership are bad combinations. It is highly inappropriate to discuss politics in church - you will certainly offend someone, and nothing will drive the Spirit away faster.

I think you need to differentiate between politics and partisan politics.  Politics is a highly appropriate and very important church discussion.  After all, the Book of Mormon stories especially that of King Benjamin is a lot about politics and so is most of the Bible.  The Church encourages its members to be actively involved in the decisions of governance, applying their gospel-centered morality (informing our ideology) into secular living - "be in the world but not OF the world".

Partisan politics is where the Pharisees fell on - that is a completely different discussion than politics.  Trump vs. Biden is not an appropriate church discussion.  How to avoid War, how to conduct Trade, how to maximize Free Will without falling into anarchy... These are very important Church topics that inform how we choose to be governed.  And that's why we discuss things such as Mosiah 2 in Sunday School.

 

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Here is an interesting development that I've been thinking a lot about.  Trump is declaring houses of worship as providing "essential services."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFG6Gr0Fow0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPZceV5RR5Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sRweFK5LzQ

It's funny how CNN decides to point out that this is "unenforceable" rather than "faith friendly."  Why?  Because they want to drive a wedge between the faith community and Trump.

The more I'm thinking about this, the more I see Trump as Darius (of Daniel and the Lion's den).  Not Nebuchadnezzar.  Not Morianton.  Not Charlemagne.

Darius never did "convert" to the Law of Moses.  History says he eventually became Zoroastorian.  But there was no question that he was an ally of Daniel and all the Jews.  We can point to the fact that he declared that all people worship him (Darius) for a day.  And we can point to throwing Daniel in the Lion's den.  We could probably point to many things that he did in his life that were certainly against the laws of God.  But at the end of the day, he was a man with the power. And he used that power to protect the covenant people.

SIDE NOTE about Persia: It is sad that the story of the 300 Spartans depicts the Persians as the evil empire.  The truth is that Persians had many very forward thinking practices.  They were the first major world power to outlaw slavery.  They allowed women the right to own and control property.  They could represent themselves and their husbands at court.  A Persian Queen (Pourandokt) may have been one of the first female monarchs in history.

The point is:  It is very difficult to see from the outside and determine who a man (or woman) is on the inside.  What we can do is judge their actions.

The problem with Trump is that his actions in his private life (adultery, bully behavior, and adolescent speech) show one side, where his public actions (policies, proposed legislation, judicial appointees, defunding Planned Parenthood, general rhetoric supportive of Christians...) tell a very different side.  He's also taken a very federalist position on many policies.  He's been very respectful of states rights.  He's done what he can to get us out of wars and conflicts.  He even reversed his decision to attack Iran because he realized it there was insufficient cause to put G.I.s in danger.  He is an interesting character to say the least.

Looking at that profile, you know what political category I'd put him in?  Libertarian.

Edited by Carborendum

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Guest MormonGator
2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

The problem with Trump is that his actions in his private life (adultery, bully behavior, and adolescent speech) show one side, where his public actions (policies, proposed legislation, judicial appointees, defunding Planned Parenthood, general rhetoric supportive of Christians...) tell a very different side. 

Liberals love to point out the dichotomy between Trumps private life and the support he's gotten from Christians, but Bill Clinton was a rapist and got a ton of his support from feminists. So.... 

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Good hypocrisy test to see if you're letting your sense of right and wrong be colored by your political beliefs.  If this is you, you might want to rethink things:

BidenRapevsTrumpGrab.thumb.png.55ab3844484cdf02776a5f50af8b97a0.png

 

Also, if you've never even heard of Reade or her allegation, that's evidence that you might want to re-think how you get your news about politics. 

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9 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Good hypocrisy test to see if you're letting your sense of right and wrong be colored by your political beliefs.  If this is you, you might want to rethink things:

BidenRapevsTrumpGrab.thumb.png.55ab3844484cdf02776a5f50af8b97a0.png

 

Also, if you've never even heard of Reade or her allegation, that's evidence that you might want to re-think how you get your news about politics. 

When I was 18-24ish I thought everyone who agreed with me was noble, decent, and highly moral. And anyone who disagreed with me had to be an immoral scumbag. Eventually, I grew up and realized how wrong I was. Someone can be an absolute dirtbag and agree with me on most issues. And, on the flip side, someone can be highly decent and moral and yet have political/religious beliefs that are totally different than mine. Sadly, some people never outgrow how I thought when I was much younger.  

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19 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Good hypocrisy test to see if you're letting your sense of right and wrong be colored by your political beliefs.  If this is you, you might want to rethink things:

BidenRapevsTrumpGrab.thumb.png.55ab3844484cdf02776a5f50af8b97a0.pngSo wi

 

Also, if you've never even heard of Reade or her allegation, that's evidence that you might want to re-think how you get your news about politics. 

So which pervert Chihuahua Rat dog do we vote for?  

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3 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

So which pervert Chihuahua Rat dog do we vote for?  

You mistake the meaning of the dog.  The dogs aren't representations of the candidates.  They are representations of the people reacting to the candidate.  In this case, it's how the left reacts to the two incidents.  Hate orange man, give Biden a pass.  

Hypocrisy.  Lack of consistency in outrage.  #HashtagBelieveWomen, but throw Reade under the bus for the greater good.  Shame, shame, SHAME on anyone who reacts like this dog.

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