Brigham Young statue vandalized

[Jamie123]

4 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I think I know what you mean.  But if you believe the rioters today have any semblance of sufficient historical knowledge to put that together or enough self-control to guide themselves by such knowledge, I think you give them too much credit.

You may be right there. Once a statue comes down, everyone wants to "do one".

[Still_Small_Voice]

When I saw them hang a statue on a pole that was tore down in North Carolina after dragging it through the street I thought:  "This is a foreshadowing of what these mobs would do to people that disagree with them if they had absolute power."

I think these small violent demonstrations will die out and this will not spread.  Most people in America still have some good sense.

[Midwest LDS]

1 hour ago, Jamie123 said:

I don't understand about Lincoln either. Perhaps it was because his emancipation proclamation gave a free pass to the Northern slave states. Or perhaps because of what he said about freeing slaves vs. preserving the Union. (I can't quote exactly but I'm sure you know what I mean.)

Sorry thread jack real quick. Lincoln opposed slavery on a personal level for most of his life. You can find writings as far back as the 1840's mentioning his distate for the system. Lincoln, however, was also a strong believer in the Constitution. At the time, the Constitution gave him no authority to unilaterally end slavery. The quote he made was made at the start of the war, when he believed it would be short and when he had very little political support to end slavery. Ironically it was the rebels themselves who gave him the political capital to end slavery, and if you study his political decisions closely, you can see an almost undeviating course towards ending slavery, which he correctly believed had caused the war in the first place. First by compensated emancipation in the vital border states, then by freeing slaves held by the Confederacy, then by using all of his political clout to pass the Thirteenth Amendment abolishing slavery right before his death. Here's a quote from him on the subject, less famous than his preserve the Union quote, but more relevant "

"I am naturally anti-slavery. If slavery is not wrong, nothing is wrong. I can not remember when I did not so think, and feel. ... And yet I have never understood that the Presidency conferred upon me an unrestricted right to act officially upon this judgment and feeling."

Rioters don't have the historical knowledge to understand this. All they see is "he said something that sounds bad from a 21st century perspective so he's bad". It's why I will never trust a mob to make an intelligent decision.

Edited June 23, 2020 by Midwest LDS

[Guest MormonGator]

49 minutes ago, Midwest LDS said:

Sorry thread jack real quick. Lincoln opposed slavery on a personal level for most of his life. You can find writings as far back as the 1840's mentioning his distate for the system. Lincoln, however, was also a strong believer in the Constitution. At the time, the Constitution gave him no authority to unilaterally end slavery. The quote he made was made at the start of the war, when he believed it would be short and when he had very little political support to end slavery. Ironically it was the rebels themselves who gave him the political capital to end slavery, and if you study his political decisions closely, you can see an almost undeviating course towards ending slavery, which he correctly believed had caused the war in the first place. First by compensated emancipation in the vital border states, then by freeing slaves held by the Confederacy, then by using all of his political clout to pass the Thirteenth Amendment abolishing slavery right before his death. Here's a quote from him on the subject, less famous than his preserve the Union quote, but more relevant "

"I am naturally anti-slavery. If slavery is not wrong, nothing is wrong. I can not remember when I did not so think, and feel. ... And yet I have never understood that the Presidency conferred upon me an unrestricted right to act officially upon this judgment and feeling."

Rioters don't have the historical knowledge to understand this. All they see is "he said something that sounds bad from a 21st century perspective so he's bad". It's why I will never trust a mob to make an intelligent decision.

@Midwest LDS, did Lincoln hold troubling views on race? Was he a man of his time?   

[Midwest LDS]

13 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

@Midwest LDS, did Lincoln hold troubling views on race? Was he a man of his time?   

Yes. He believed that the white race was superior to the black race and by our standards he would be viewed as a racist, although his beliefs were far from uncommon at the time. It's not surprising given that many prominent scientists around the world during that period of history believed and taught the same thing. They were wrong of course, but they didn't know that then.

However, he believed blacks should still be treated as human beings. One of the reasons he despised slavery is because he believed a man who worked hard had a right to be paid for that work and that it was fundamentally immoral to deprive him of that wage. For his time, he was more egalitarian than many others in the country.

Edited June 23, 2020 by Midwest LDS

[Guest MormonGator]

26 minutes ago, Midwest LDS said:

For his time, he was more egalitarian than many others in the country.

Oh I agree totally, I was strictly curious. I know you don't like history much-how did you find the answer? 

[Midwest LDS]

3 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Oh I agree totally, I was strictly curious. I know you don't like history much-how did you find the answer? 

It's a magic oracle device I believe is called Google. You make a sacrifice of an Apple to the gods, and ask your question of the glowing rock and the words magically appear in bold letters before your very eyes😃.

[Guest MormonGator]

3 minutes ago, Midwest LDS said:

You make a sacrifice of an Apple to the gods

Can you ask the gods if we can sacrifice @mirkwood instead? 

[Carborendum]

3 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

You may be right there. Once a statue comes down, everyone wants to "do one".

Is that like "doing The Dew"?  Or is it more like doing "The Twist"?

[priesthoodpower]

Parents should teach their kids self-discipline and respect for others property.

 

Edited August 10, 2020 by priesthoodpower

[Guest MormonGator]

6 minutes ago, priesthoodpower said:

Parents need to teach the FULL history of the church and not just the good stuff. It is irresponsible to only teach the good stuff and let your kids hear the bad stuff from anti-Mormons. Had the person that vandalized the B.Y. statue heard about Brighams racists events from a compassionate parent or even church leader they wouldnt have had so much anger built up, chances are they heard it from anti-Mormon sources.

 

Perfectly said. I've spoken to missionaries who haven't been told the entire truth by their parents so when they find out this fact or that fact-it rocks them and shakes them to the core. It's a massive problem, actually. 

And I can actually think of 4 or 5 missionaries that have spoken to me about this very issue. Two have left the church over it. 

Edited June 24, 2020 by MormonGator

[Vort]

27 minutes ago, priesthoodpower said:

Parents need to teach the FULL history of the church and not just the good stuff. It is irresponsible to only teach the good stuff and let your kids hear the bad stuff from anti-Mormons. Had the person that vandalized the B.Y. statue heard about Brighams racists events from a compassionate parent or even church leader they wouldnt have had so much anger built up, chances are they heard it from anti-Mormon sources.

Or perhaps characterizing Brigham Young as "racist" is yet another absurd example of the mindless presentism so common among the under-40 crowd. I refuse to believe that today's generation is significantly stupider than my own. They should be able to figure this out.

[Jedi_Nephite]

25 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Perfectly said. I've spoken to missionaries who haven't been told the entire truth by their parents so when they find out this fact or that fact-it rocks them and shakes them to the core. It's a massive problem, actually. 

And I can actually think of 4 or 5 missionaries that have spoken to me about this very issue. Two have left the church over it. 

Shakes them to the core? That sounds a little dramatic. People in the Church who leave over things like that, do so as a way to justify their wanting to leave. These same type people also tend to stop going to church altogether, not just the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Either way, that’s why it’s important to have a testimony of the truthfulness of the gospel. When the Spirit testifies, it doesn’t matter what “facts” one can twist to try to make the Church look bad. People of today may not like what Brigham Young had to say back then, but it doesn’t make it any less true. 

[Guest MormonGator]

5 minutes ago, Jedi_Nephite said:

Shakes them to the core? That sounds a little dramatic.

Well, saying it 'slightly bothers' them isn't really accurate.

The heartbreak (Whoops. Too dramatic?) I've seen from some of these missionaries who learn this and that about the church is just crushing. 

Edited June 24, 2020 by MormonGator

[Jedi_Nephite]

On 6/22/2020 at 11:48 AM, anatess2 said:

Tons of people want it to stop but nobody is going to do anything to stop it.  You know why?  Because the time to stop it was when these people were born - 20 or more years ago.  That's when their PARENTS could have raised them properly.

So, you want to do something about it?  RAISE YOUR KIDS PROPERLY.

Exactly.

I’ve noticed that the youth and young adults in the Church who are in support of LGBQT, BLM, and socialist/communist ideas and policies have parents who are also passive on these issues. They don’t seem to take a firm stance on anything, or are on the wrong side of the issue. That’s not always the case, but it is a pattern.

[Midwest LDS]

2 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Well, saying it 'slightly bothers' them isn't really accurate.

The heartbreak (Whoops. Too dramatic?) I've seen from some of these missionaries who learn this and that about the church is just crushing. 

I believe you. Sometimes though it's hard for me to wrap my head around. Most of the stuff that typically gets people upset (everything from polygamy to how Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon) I remember learning in seminary. Even the stuff I didn't learn about there (the Mountain Meadows Massacre for one) I learned more about by reading the Institute manuals on my mission and I don't consider myself especially different from anyone else in the church. The information is readily available from the church, so I've never understood how so many people seem to not find it.

I will add though that I recognize my obsession with history helped me out here. I like researching things that puzzle me, so whenever it's happened I tend to go straight to the source. I won't judge someone who doesn't have that as a strength and I hope the missionaries you mentioned were able to find some peace in their lives.

[Guest MormonGator]

5 minutes ago, Midwest LDS said:

he information is readily available from the church, so I've never understood how so many people seem to not find it.

I actually agree with you on this, more or less. The church has been getting more open with history-releasing the essays, funding the Joesph Smith papers, etc. I'm strictly relating the experiences that I have had. 

[Midwest LDS]

7 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I actually agree with you on this, more or less. The church has been getting more open with history-releasing the essays, funding the Joesph Smith papers, etc. I'm strictly relating the experiences that I have had. 

And I appreciate that. It's important to recognize that while we may not struggle with an issue others do, and try to reach out to them and point them in the direction of resources that answer their questions rather than just dismissing their concerns.

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, Midwest LDS said:

while we may not struggle with an issue others do,

That's part of the problem (a big part, actually)-too many of us lack empathy. 

Too many of these kids can't address issues with their parents, or their bishops. So they can't get the answers they need because they are afraid to ask the questions. It's sad. It's costing the church a lot of people. 😞 

Edited June 24, 2020 by MormonGator

[priesthoodpower]

46 minutes ago, Midwest LDS said:

The information is readily available from the church, so I've never understood how so many people seem to not find it.

I will add though that I recognize my obsession with history helped me out here. I like researching things that puzzle me, so whenever it's happened I tend to go straight to the source. I won't judge someone who doesn't have that as a strength and I hope the missionaries you mentioned were able to find some peace in their lives.

I have a co-worker that is a few years younger then me (late 30's). I walked by his office one day and saw he was on the local newspaper website. I asked him "oh, I didn't know you have a paid subscription to the newspaper!", he replied "I don't, I just glance at all the article headings!"

This generation even more so is dealing with information overload and the way we teach our youth needs to adapt.

Don't bash me for saying this but I get all my church history information from the Saints Unscripted you tube channel. Its short sweet and entertaining. 

[Plein Air]

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Edited August 2, 2020 by Plein Air

[Jamie123]

I may well be digging a hole for myself, but here goes:

I accept everything Vort says about the early LDS suffering at the hands of a mindless mob. That was totally wrong, and what's has been happening (to statues etc.) across the US and the UK is totally wrong too.

Having said that, there are a lot of statues I would have been sadder to have seen dumped in the River Avon. Edward Colston waxed fat on the misery of thousands of black people, bought from African slave traders, shipped across the Atlantic under terrible conditions. Those who survived the voyages were sold as chattels in the New World, so that England could grow rich. Those slaves may not have been my ancestors (or even their neighbours) but they were human beings. Even compared to what happened to LDS in Ohio and Missouri, this has to count for something.

Had it been John Newton I would have been deeply saddened: though once a slave trader, he repented and became an abolitionist. (He later wrote the hymn Amazing Grace; "how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me".) Colston as far as I know stayed a slave-trader all his life. Sure, he did a lot of charitable work, but only for white people.

If I had my way, that statue would still be on its plinth, so that the people of Bristol could decide democratically what was to be done with it. I'd suggest putting it in a museum, so people could still see and appreciate an important - though flawed - figure of Bristol's history. (That's actually what's happening btw, now the statue has been fished out of the water.)

So please excuse me for taking a certain grim satisfaction in what happened. If Vort can be forgiven for lacking sympathy, I think I can be too for having a little too much.

[Midwest LDS]

2 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

So please excuse me for taking a certain grim satisfaction in what happened. If Vort can be forgiven for lacking sympathy, I think I can be too for having a little too much

You are ok my friend. I also took some satisfaction watching Confederate statues removed throughout the South. I've always considered them traitors, who tried to destroy this country to maintain the horrific system of slavery. To be blunt they don't deserve to be honored. But I really hate mobs. I'm okay with statues of Robert E. Lee or Edward Colston being removed but I want it done through proper channels, otherwise we risk those mobs destroying monuments of people who do deserve to be honored like Ulysses S. Grant or John Newton.

[Guest MormonGator]

The Confederate monuments should come down, but I'm going to blunt. Tearing them down will do absolutely nothing in terms of race relations or abuses against minorities. This is done so that white people can feel good about themselves and talk about how wonderful and tolerant they are, pat themselves on the back, and then go back to their daily lives. 

[Midwest LDS]

11 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

The Confederate monuments should come down, but I'm going to blunt. Tearing them down will do absolutely nothing in terms of race relations or abuses against minorities. This is done so that white people can feel good about themselves and talk about how wonderful and tolerant they are, pat themselves on the back, and then go back to their daily lives. 

Agreed 100%