askandanswer

Conclusions from D&C 132: 16 - 17?

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16  Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

17  For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.

 (Doctrine and Covenants | Section 132:16 - 17)

 

Do the following conclusions flow from the above verses, and how firm or tenuous is the support for these conclusions?

1. You can be disobedient to God’s law and still be an angel living in heaven in a saved, but not exalted condition.

2. If the type of angels referred to in these verses did live with God, that would be inconsistent with the two well supported ideas that to disobey God’s law results in a form of uncleanness, and that no unclean thing can dwell in the presence of God. If those two ideas are both true, then we can conclude that this particular type of angel does not live with God.

3. There is a place referred to as heaven, where these angels are said to be appointed to, but God does not dwell there.

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5 hours ago, askandanswer said:

 

16  Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

17  For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.

 (Doctrine and Covenants | Section 132:16 - 17)

 

Do the following conclusions flow from the above verses, and how firm or tenuous is the support for these conclusions?

1. You can be disobedient to God’s law and still be an angel living in heaven in a saved, but not exalted condition.

2. If the type of angels referred to in these verses did live with God, that would be inconsistent with the two well supported ideas that to disobey God’s law results in a form of uncleanness, and that no unclean thing can dwell in the presence of God. If those two ideas are both true, then we can conclude that this particular type of angel does not live with God.

3. There is a place referred to as heaven, where these angels are said to be appointed to, but God does not dwell there.

By definition an angle is a messenger (minister) sent by G-d with power and authority.  As I understand - marriage is required to obtain the glory of G-d.  Without marriage the best that one can hope for is to be a ministering angel overseen by a g-d.  And that a marriage as defined - must be performed in this mortal life.  This is why marriage is performed for the dead.

 

The Traveler

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13 hours ago, askandanswer said:

 

16  Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

17  For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.

 (Doctrine and Covenants | Section 132:16 - 17)

 

Do the following conclusions flow from the above verses, and how firm or tenuous is the support for these conclusions?

1. You can be disobedient to God’s law and still be an angel living in heaven in a saved, but not exalted condition.

2. If the type of angels referred to in these verses did live with God, that would be inconsistent with the two well supported ideas that to disobey God’s law results in a form of uncleanness, and that no unclean thing can dwell in the presence of God. If those two ideas are both true, then we can conclude that this particular type of angel does not live with God.

3. There is a place referred to as heaven, where these angels are said to be appointed to, but God does not dwell there.

1.  You can be disobedient to the Law in mortality, BUT still be saved in a Kingdom of Heaven after death.  This is why there is the atonement.  As long as one accepts the Lord and does not deny his atonement, they can be saved from death and hell, but this does not necessarily mean that they will get the Highest reward.  In heaven there are many mansions/houses and various degrees of reward depending on the events of this life.  As sins are wiped away and we are wiped clean, we are then pure and without sin in heaven, but the tendencies we may have had which led us to sin may still lie with in us.  Therefore, we are limited in the power and ability we receive and in as much, in many instances certain abilities for certain drastic sins are removed as well as the desire to sin is no longer something that drives us. 

2.  Even the most dire of murderers that have sinned are cleaned by the atonement as long as they accept it. The power of the atonement is infinite and eternal and though one's sins be as scarlet, their robes can be pure.  Without the atonement they would be unable to be in heaven, and no one on this earth could make it to live there.  The atonement's power enables us to repent and be saved though some will not do so until the next life.  However, the desire we had to achieve certain rewards are shown by our actions in this life and the spirit world, and as we have shown our desires, thus we will be rewarded.  Only those who have been cleansed by the atonement can live in the Kingdom of Heaven, from those whose desires showed them wishing to live a Telestial life to those whose actions and desires showed them wishing to live a Celestial eternity.

3.  The Spirit of the Lord lives throughout all of heaven.  There are locations which they have designated for people who may not wish to be in their presence and where these people can reside, but the Kingdom of Heaven is still under the jurisdiction and control of our almighty Father.  There is no place where he is not able to go if he wishes it, but because he is merciful those who chose to live a life where much of his influence was absent are not subjected or forced to live in a manner which they would not want to in the next life.  They still can be visited by Angels and messengers, or others can still be visited by the Son, while those who truly did all they could to live with their Father in his abode and receive his greatest reward will also be granted their desires.  Not everyone will get exaltation, but all will be clean by the power of the atonement who choose to live in the Kingdom of Heaven.

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On 1/2/2021 at 3:39 PM, askandanswer said:

 

16  Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

17  For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.

 (Doctrine and Covenants | Section 132:16 - 17)

Do the following conclusions flow from the above verses, and how firm or tenuous is the support for these conclusions?

1. You can be disobedient to God’s law and still be an angel living in heaven in a saved, but not exalted condition.

2. If the type of angels referred to in these verses did live with God, that would be inconsistent with the two well supported ideas that to disobey God’s law results in a form of uncleanness, and that no unclean thing can dwell in the presence of God. If those two ideas are both true, then we can conclude that this particular type of angel does not live with God.

3. There is a place referred to as heaven, where these angels are said to be appointed to, but God does not dwell there.

The law here, I think, is the law of marriage sealing. God resides, or God's presence is manifest or accommodated, in both the Celestial and Exalted kingdoms.

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Everyone will inherit a kingdom with a glory equal to the law a person is willing to live. If an otherwise righteous individual chooses not to live the law governing celestial marriage then they will be rewarded with a righteous person's inheritance less the blessings that come by obedience to the marriage covenant. Apparently that is within the Celestial Kingdom but not the higher degree of that kingdom. This person will not be considered disobedient because that law is not required of them. This is to my understanding how all the kingdoms of glory will operate and why their number are like the stars in the heavens.

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On 1/2/2021 at 1:39 PM, askandanswer said:

Do the following conclusions flow from the above verses, and how firm or tenuous is the support for these conclusions?

1. You can be disobedient to God’s law and still be an angel living in heaven in a saved, but not exalted condition.

2. If the type of angels referred to in these verses did live with God, that would be inconsistent with the two well supported ideas that to disobey God’s law results in a form of uncleanness, and that no unclean thing can dwell in the presence of God. If those two ideas are both true, then we can conclude that this particular type of angel does not live with God.

3. There is a place referred to as heaven, where these angels are said to be appointed to, but God does not dwell there.

It's a lesser degree of glory, still glorious but with a limited level of Godliness.  

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Do the following conclusions flow from the above verses, and how firm or tenuous is the support for these conclusions?

You can be disobedient to God’s law and still be an angel living in heaven in a saved, but not exalted condition.

The verses support that the sons and daughters of God are able to be disobedient and still be saved and not exalted. This coincides with the three degrees of glory along with the three divisions in the Celestial kingdom. All are "saved" except the true sons of perdition. I would say support is 100%.

If the type of angels referred to in these verses did live with God, that would be inconsistent with the two well supported ideas that to disobey God’s law results in a form of uncleanness, and that no unclean thing can dwell in the presence of God. If those two ideas are both true, then we can conclude that this particular type of angel does not live with God.

This type of angel is consistent with the teaching that no unclean thing can dwell with God. Remember the "unclean" would be those who did not repent and accept Christ. Those who accept Christ (Oath and Covenant -- his Church, his Kingdom) will live in the Celestial kingdom.

If we have a brother who held a temple recommend, but -- due to fear -- never married we have a brother who by all accounts would be covered by the atonement and would receive a Celestial inheritance. The verse "may" be applied here (as I don't want to make an eternal judgement thus "may" emphasized) as this brother served faithfully in all callings, was worthy of a temple recommend, and kept all other commandments.

So, no we are not able to conclude with confidence that if both ideas are true that this brother (angel) would not live with God. I would say, it would be safer to conclude that the Lord would still plead for this brother before the Father.

We are "all" unclean without the Savior. The real question, was their sacrifice sufficient to be covered by the atonement, and if so, then according to verse and commandment he would live with God -- clean through the Savior, but chose (even if out of fear) to be single -- his choice -- his reward.

There is a place referred to as heaven, where these angels are said to be appointed to, but God does not dwell there.

If they have been received in the Celestial kingdom, all sons and daughters in the Celestial kingdom are able to be ministered unto by the Father. So, this would not have much support according to the verses provided.

EDIT: the thought though would be accurate for those who are Telestial or Terrestrial bodies.

Edited by Anddenex

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21 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Look carefully at the word "abide".

Could you elaborate on this please Carb, I'm not sure what you're getting at? I'm thinking that to not abide by a law would mean the same, and have the same result as, not obeying the law?  I looked again at D&C 132:17 and there is no footnote next to abide. 

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1 hour ago, askandanswer said:

Could you elaborate on this please Carb, I'm not sure what you're getting at? I'm thinking that to not abide by a law would mean the same, and have the same result as, not obeying the law?  I looked again at D&C 132:17 and there is no footnote next to abide. 

Quote

1. To wait for; to be prepared for; to await.

Bonds and afflictions abide me. Acts 20:23.

2. To endure or sustain.

To abide the indignation of the Lord. Joel 2:11.

3. To bear or endure; to bear patiently. 'I cannot abide his impertinence.'

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Here are a few things I have learned about the degrees of glory that await the children of God in the next life:

The celestial kingdom has three degrees inside of it.  Nothing has been revealed about the second degree inside the celestial kingdom.

Nothing has been revealed about any different degrees inside the terrestrial kingdom.  In my own opinion there are different degrees inside the second heaven as there are different degrees inside both of the other kingdoms of glory.  (Reading Abraham chapter 3 verse 19 may open up some other thoughts:  "And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all." )

The telestial kingdom has many degrees of glory in it according to my understanding of the scriptures.  ". . . as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world."  -- Doc. & Cov. 76:98

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On 1/2/2021 at 3:39 PM, askandanswer said:

 

16  Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

17  For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.

 (Doctrine and Covenants | Section 132:16 - 17)

 

Do the following conclusions flow from the above verses, and how firm or tenuous is the support for these conclusions?

1. You can be disobedient to God’s law and still be an angel living in heaven in a saved, but not exalted condition.

2. If the type of angels referred to in these verses did live with God, that would be inconsistent with the two well supported ideas that to disobey God’s law results in a form of uncleanness, and that no unclean thing can dwell in the presence of God. If those two ideas are both true, then we can conclude that this particular type of angel does not live with God.

3. There is a place referred to as heaven, where these angels are said to be appointed to, but God does not dwell there.

Your notion that it’s only those who obtain the fullness of  exaltation in the celestial kingdom who are going to be cleansed from their sins is not true. Even the very lowest inhabitant of the post-resurrection telestial kingdom will have to be cleansed of his sins before he can have the right to occupy even that lowliest of all states of salvation. Doctrine and Covenants 76 makes it clear that it’s only the sons of perdition who are not going to eventually be redeemed by the, glory, power and triumph of Christ. Why else do you think it is that the inheritors of the telestial mansion of glory are going to enjoy the presence of the third Personage of the Godhead and be visited and ministered to by angels from the celestial kingdom?

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On 1/3/2021 at 10:22 PM, Anddenex said:

The verses support that the sons and daughters of God are able to be disobedient and still be saved and not exalted. This coincides with the three degrees of glory along with the three divisions in the Celestial kingdom. All are "saved" except the true sons of perdition. I would say support is 100%.

I read verse 16 - "Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; 
but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are 
worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory
".

Will the telestials be saved and be appointed as angels in heaven even though they continued in their
sins and did not repent?  The Plan of Salvation defines this group as such.

Matteo

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There are so many mysteries that have yet to be revealed or that we will not know until we are in the next life.  It is not a kingdom I ever wish to dwell in, but I wonder what the lowest degree of the telestial kingdom is like compared to the highest part of that kingdom of glory.  Can one advance from the lowest degree of the first heaven and get to the top degree of the telestial kingdom?

I think one of the worst parts of damnation in the next life will be advancing as far as you can in progression and then being stopped and unable to progress any further.  Being stuck in progression for eternity would be terrible in my opinion.  Stars, black holes and galaxies would eventually come and go over eons of time but many resurrected beings will be stopped in their progression forever.

Edited by Still_Small_Voice

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On 1/9/2021 at 9:32 AM, romans8 said:

I read verse 16 - "Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; 
but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are 
worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory
".

Will the telestials be saved and be appointed as angels in heaven even though they continued in their
sins and did not repent?  The Plan of Salvation defines this group as such.

Matteo

I am not aware of anything written anywhere that says that the "Telestials" are "angels".  Can you provide a reference?  (I did not see that in The Plan of Salvation pamphlet).

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On 1/16/2021 at 10:02 AM, Carborendum said:

I am not aware of anything written anywhere that says that the "Telestials" are "angels".  Can you provide a reference?  (I did not see that in The Plan of Salvation pamphlet).

That pamphlet defines the Telestial kingdom as "Those who continue in their sins and do not
repent will receive a place in the telestial kingdom
".

I will include the Terrestrials too as it may be relevant in the context of 132:16-17.  "People who
refuse to accept the gospel of Jesus Christ but who live honorable lives will receive a place in the
terrestrial kingdom
".

Are these inhabitants "appointed angels in heaven, to minister for those who are worthy of a far
more weight of glory
"  ?

Matteo

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On 1/9/2021 at 9:32 AM, romans8 said:

Will the telestials be saved and be appointed as angels in heaven even though they continued in their
sins and did not repent?  The Plan of Salvation defines this group as such.

On 1/16/2021 at 9:02 AM, Carborendum said:

I am not aware of anything written anywhere that says that the "Telestials" are "angels"Can you provide a reference? 

2 hours ago, romans8 said:

Are these inhabitants "appointed angels in heaven, to minister for those who are worthy of a far
more weight of glory
"  ?

On 1/16/2021 at 9:02 AM, Carborendum said:

I am not aware of anything written anywhere that says that the "Telestials" are "angels". 

 

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I'm so off topic but I have to ask.

What is the LDS doctrinal explanation of Angels?

Can a human become an Angel in Heaven?

Sorry if I sound like an uneducated idiot or if this has been asked before!

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1 hour ago, marge said:

I'm so off topic but I have to ask.

What is the LDS doctrinal explanation of Angels?

Can a human become an Angel in Heaven?

Sorry if I sound like an uneducated idiot or if this has been asked before!

I believe that a human that dies and has their soul go to heaven can become an Angel.  Those who are resurrected after can also be Angels.

In fact, in our religion, we believe in those who were righteous and died becoming angels as a core idea.

One of the angels we believe in is called the Angel Moroni.  He was an individual who we believe lived over 1500 years ago.  He later returned and talked to Joseph Smith and through him came key ideas regarding our gospel which we believe in today.  Because of his work in giving us our gospel, we see him as the angel mentioned in revelations that is seen flying, and have thus put statues of him on many of our Temples (church buildings that have a significant importance to us).

Angels do not necessarily need to be humans who have lived and died on this earth previously, but those who were righteous and good people who died and went to heaven are some of those who we feel are angels today.

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On 1/23/2021 at 12:00 PM, Carborendum said:

I am not aware of anything written anywhere that says that the "Telestials" are "angels".

Are the people who are appointed angels in verses 16-17 members of the telestial and terrestrial
kingdoms or are they solely members of the two lower divisions of the celestial?

Matteo

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11 hours ago, marge said:

I'm so off topic but I have to ask.

What is the LDS doctrinal explanation of Angels?

Can a human become an Angel in Heaven?

Sorry if I sound like an uneducated idiot or if this has been asked before!

Here is the entry under the term "Angels"  from the Bible dictionary of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. This is part, maybe most, of the LDS doctrinal explanation of Angels. And the short answer to your second question about whether a human can become an Angel in Heaven, as indicated in the doctrinal explanation below is yes.

Its nice to see another Aussie on here - there are not many of us around on this discussion board. :) 

 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bd/angels?lang=eng

Angels

These are messengers of the Lord and are spoken of in the epistle to the Hebrews as “ministering spirits” (Heb. 1:14). We learn from latter-day revelation that there are two classes of heavenly beings who minister for the Lord: those who are spirits and those who have bodies of flesh and bone. Spirits are those beings who either have not yet obtained a body of flesh and bone (unembodied) or who have once had a mortal body and have died and are awaiting the Resurrection (disembodied). Ordinarily the word angel means those ministering persons who have a body of flesh and bone, being either resurrected from the dead (reembodied), or else translated, as were Enoch, Elijah, etc. (D&C 129).

There are many references to the work of angels in the Old Testament. In some passages the “angel of the Lord” speaks as the voice of God Himself (Gen. 22:11–12). The word angel is also sometimes used to designate a human messenger, as in JST Gen. 19:15 (Appendix), and may have some application also in Matt. 13:39–42. There is evidence of nonmortal beings who serve God in heaven (1 Kgs. 22:19; Alma 36:22) and also of some who do God’s will and minister to men on the earth (Gen. 28:12; 32:1; 2 Sam. 24:16; 1 Kgs. 19:5–7; 2 Kgs. 1:15; 19:35; Ps. 91:11).

We find angels mentioned by name in Dan. 8:16; 9:21; 10:13, 21; 12:1; Luke 1:19, 26. In latter-day revelation we learn that the angel Michael is Adam, and the angel Gabriel is Noah (HC 3:386).

In the New Testament there are many references to the ministry of angels but no clear statement as to their nature or their relation to mankind in general. Angels attended on our Lord throughout His life on earth (Matt. 1:20; 2:13, 19; 4:11; 28:2–8; Luke 1:11–20, 26–30; 2:9–15; 22:43). Jesus often spoke of angels (Matt. 13:14–30, 37–41; 16:27; 18:10; 22:30; 24:36; Luke 15:10, etc.). The Sadducees did not believe in supernatural beings, but the Pharisees believed in both angels and spirits, which fact Paul used to his advantage when brought before the Sanhedrin (Acts 23:7–9). Other New Testament references are Acts 7:53; 1 Cor. 4:9; 6:3; 11:10; Gal. 1:8; 3:19; Col. 2:18 (where we are warned against worship of angels), and throughout the Revelation of John. There are references to fallen angels in 2 Pet. 2:4 and Jude 1:6.

The scriptures speak of the devil’s angels. These are those spirits who followed Lucifer and were thrust out in the war in heaven and cast down to the earth. See Rev. 12:1–9; D&C 29:36–38; Moses 4:1–4; Abr. 3:27–28; and as alluded to by Peter and Jude cited above.

Latter-day revelation contains much about the nature, ministry, and identification of angels. See 2 Ne. 32:2–3; Alma 12:28–29; 13:24–26; Moro. 7:29–31; D&C 7:6–7; 13; 27:16; 76:21; 110:11–16; 128:21; 129; 132:16–18. Angels do not have wings (HC 3:392).

The word angel is used in various ways. A person who is a divine messenger is called an angel. Thus Moroni, John the Baptist, Peter, James, John, Moses, Elijah, and Elias all ministered to Joseph Smith as angels. These all shall be exalted and inherit celestial glory. The scriptures also speak of another class of persons who, because of failure to obey the gospel, will not be exalted and will become angels in eternity. These are spoken of as angels in Matt. 22:29–30 and D&C 132:16–18. This latter designation should not be confused with the use of the term angels having reference to the heavenly messengers sent forth to minister to the inhabitants of the earth.

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More stupid questions!

So if Angels and demons can be human spirits or angelic spirits, can demons also be angelic (not human) spirits?  

Were all the demons 'chosen' (bad term I know! English escapes me right now, apologies) at the fall or can a really bad human spirit (or angelic spirit) become a demon due to bad choices in free will?

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On 2/6/2021 at 10:12 AM, romans8 said:

Are the people who are appointed angels in verses 16-17 members of the telestial and terrestrial
kingdoms or are they solely members of the two lower divisions of the celestial?

Matteo

In this context, it seems to me "angels" means a resurrected person, and all of any kingdom beneath "a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory." will be appointed as ministering servants in some capacity.

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5 hours ago, marge said:

More stupid questions!

So if Angels and demons can be human spirits or angelic spirits, can demons also be angelic (not human) spirits?  

Were all the demons 'chosen' (bad term I know! English escapes me right now, apologies) at the fall or can a really bad human spirit (or angelic spirit) become a demon due to bad choices in free will?

I'm not positive I understand the question, but will attempt to answer it.

'Demons' as you put it can be spirits who followed the devil and are part of his host.  When he rebelled in heaven he took 1/3 of the host of heaven with him.  These are his angels or as we could say, 'demons' of who are opposed to the designs of the Lord.

In addition, mortal individuals who choose to follow the adversary could go to hell after this life.  If they choose to follow the devil they will become his followers, not only in spirit, but if they are ever resurrected and regain a body as well.

A Prime example that probably falls in this camp is Judas Iscariot who was called a Son of Perdition by the Lord.  If he is such, it is probable he is going to follow the devil as his master and thus in his death became a 'demon' as you would put it, or an angel of hell. 

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