NeuroTypical

President Nelson vaccinated

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1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

That makes sense - you're using your imagination, instead of understanding how vaccines are developed and tested before being released into the general population.

FYI: The vaccine has already been tested on old people, both in good health and poor health.  Like, back in August.  They didn't die of being vaccinated.

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

Yep.  The only things we're certain of right now, is the vaccines are 90+% effective for at least 6 months, with no indication of any horrible things happening.

Did you not read the article?  There ARE old people who have already died from the effects of the vaccine.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-18/what-to-know-about-vaccine-related-deaths-allergies-quicktake

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5 hours ago, person0 said:

Did you not read the article?  There ARE old people who have already died from the effects of the vaccine.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-18/what-to-know-about-vaccine-related-deaths-allergies-quicktake

*sigh*.   Ok, person0, let's quote directly from your link.

Quote

 Those who died were all in the “75 years +” bracket and they included terminally ill patients anticipated to have only weeks or months to live. After a review, the WHO Global Advisory Committee on Vaccine Safety said that the fatalities “are in line with the expected, all-cause mortality rates and causes of death in the sub-population of frail, elderly individuals.”

Quote

 In its report, it said the deaths were probably due to the patients’ underlying diseases including carcinomas, kidney deficiencies and Alzheimer’s, not the inoculation.

So again, here's where ignorance about mortality and control groups and double-blind studies and whatnot, really do a number on someone's ability to understand what's truth and what isn't.

No really - put 30,000 people in one room and give 'em the shot, put another 30,000 people in another room and don't give them any shot.  Track everyone's health, symptoms, and deaths.   The 30k unvaccinated folks have about the same amounts of deaths, syndromes, cancer, rotting teeth, erectile dysfunction, and cell phone reception as the 30k who got the shot.   So when we hear that someone got the shot and died, we ask why, and we hear "yep, they were sick and at death's door already.  Nothing to do with the vaccine."

Can you understand that, person0?

Edited by NeuroTypical

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12 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

*sigh*.   Ok, person0, let's quote directly from your link.

So again, here's where ignorance about mortality and control groups and double-blind studies and whatnot, really do a number on someone's ability to understand what's truth and what isn't.

No really - put 30,000 people in one room and give 'em the shot, put another 30,000 people in another room and don't give them any shot.  Track everyone's health, symptoms, and deaths.   The 30k unvaccinated folks have about the same amounts of deaths, syndromes, cancer, rotting teeth, erectile dysfunction, and cell phone reception as the 30k who got the shot.   So when we hear that someone got the shot and died, we ask why, and we hear "yep, they were sick and at death's door already.  Nothing to do with the vaccine."

Can you understand that, person0?

Sure, BUT there are is a known risk of severe side effects from mRNA vaccines.   A search of VAERS shows there to be death and injury associated with the vaccine.  The Norwegian Health Ministry released a warning regarding it.    People have died as a result of being vaccinated.  

It's sad to see people picking and choosing when "underlying conditions" matter and when they don't, depending on their bias.

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2 hours ago, Grunt said:

Sure, BUT there are is a known risk of severe side effects from mRNA vaccines.   

There is?   Who knows this?   What is your source?  I hope you're not talking about the VAERS database, because no, it does not show any known risk of any severe side effects.   If you think it does, I'd suggest you go to the VAERS website and browse through their learning tools, especially their third YouTube video on strengths and limitations of the VAERS data

 

Quote

A search of VAERS shows there to be death and injury associated with the vaccine. 

I'm confused.  I thought you responded to my post with the word "Sure".   Did that not indicate you understood and accepted the points I was making?   I'm confused, because if you understand and accept the points I was making, you would understand why the list of stuff in the VAERS database isn't sufficient to know whether a vaccine is safe or not.

Again, my point is when you compare the vaccinated people against their control group, they have similar rates of "death and injury".   

Again, I'd suggest you go to the VAERS website and browse through their learning tools, especially their third YouTube video on strengths and limitations of the VAERS data. Especially this slide and why it's there:

image.png.33edf869abe5beb0a9858e46980fcc67.png

If you don't understand why that last bullet point is there, you can't hope to have an accurate or valid opinion on what the VAERS website can and can't tell us about vaccine safety.

 

Quote

The Norwegian Health Ministry released a warning regarding it.   

Are you referring to this news item?   Ok, I just read it through.  It's an article about how some terminally ill people have died after getting the vaccine, right?  Again, if you understand the points I'm raising about data and control groups and mortality rates, why are you bringing up this news item?  Is it because you somehow believe it indicates the vaccine is causing people to die more often, than if they had not received it?  I don't mean to sound dismissive or rude, and I'm trying to put this question in the most charitable light possible, but you do understand what it means to be "terminally ill", right?  Perhaps ushering two parents through the terminally ill phase of their lives gives me a little insight you may not have.  But terminally ill people, well, they die.  It's sort of in the dictionary definition of the phrase.   And yes, mild or moderate reactions to a vaccine can kill someone in this state.  So can eating food, or a strong breeze, or taking the medication they need to stay alive, or even a slammed door.

Again, before you can have a valid opinion about COVID vaccine deaths in terminally ill people, you have to know how many terminally ill people die with the vaccine, and how many die without it.  Again, the article you quoted addresses that, Germany, for example, seems to get it.   Do you?  Again, that "learning tools" section of the VAERS website may help you.

 

Quote

People have died as a result of being vaccinated.  

They are?  According to who?  What's your source?  Because if your source is the VAERS database, or the Norwegian Health Ministry warning article, then, well, you don't have a source.  

 

Quote

It's sad to see people picking and choosing when "underlying conditions" matter and when they don't, depending on their bias.

Oh, I totally agree.  Do you think I'm "people"?  I try hard not to be.   Or, to put it more accurately, I try hard to be biased towards sound scientific methods and understanding reality before I begin having opinions or trusting sources.   I'm far from any sort of professional when it comes to virology or vaccine testing, but I did get an A grade in my college statistics class, and an A- in my symbolic logic class, which have been invaluable in helping me sort facts from crap in all walks of life.  And when the difference between anecdotes and data finally became clear to me, I realized how much crap I used to believe was facts, was actually crap.

 

 

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Here's another way to think about VAERS data.   

You know what we'd have if there were zero deaths listed under the COVID vaccine?  We'd have an indication that the COVID vaccine makes people immortal.  Either that, or it would be indicative of a data failure.  (Probably the second one, but a guy can hope!  People take a shot and stop dying?  Where do I sign up!)

Edited by NeuroTypical

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3 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Here's another way to think about VAERS data.   

You know what we'd have if there were zero deaths listed under the COVID vaccine?  We'd have an indication that the COVID vaccine makes people immortal.  Either that, or it would be indicative of a data failure.  (Probably the second one, but a guy can hope!  People take a shot and stop dying?  Where do I sign up!)

No, that's not true at all.  False equivalency.   What we'd have if there were zero deaths associated with COVID vaccine is that there were ZERO deaths attributed to COVID vaccine.   

I'm not sure if you make long posts because you believe they support your argument or if you do it in hopes that it will confuse people reading it.  This site is merely a collection site of related deaths and issues.   This report, now over a week old, directly attributes deaths to vaccination symptoms.

I'm not sure why some of you (yes, including you specifically) spend so much time downplaying verifiable facts.  Saying the VAERS database isn't a source is nonsense.   You can attempt to prove it isn't a reliable source, but you can't do that.  

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1 hour ago, Grunt said:

What we'd have if there were zero deaths associated with COVID vaccine is that there were ZERO deaths attributed to COVID vaccine.   

Huh.  Perhaps here is the issue:  Hey Grunt - if someone gets the covid shot, and then they get hit by a car and dies, do they end up in VAERS as a death?  I believe they do.   I'm thinking you believe they don't.  Here's why I believe it: I am part of the phase III trial for the Moderna vaccine.  I got my shots back in August.  I am now enrolled in a 5-year health tracking program.  Every two weeks, I fill out a report on any health changes I have experienced.   

Now, here's the part I'm thinking you don't get: It doesn't matter whether any of my health changes are related to COVID or not.  I report them regardless.  If I die from car crash, my death data will be entered into the database of things that have happened to vaccinated people.   

1 hour ago, Grunt said:

 This report, now over a week old, directly attributes deaths to vaccination symptoms.

Well, I can't think of any better way to address it, than how I did above.   I'm sticking with my opinion that there are things that you don't understand, that if you did, you'd get it.   Germany gets it, from that article I shared.

 

1 hour ago, Grunt said:

Saying the VAERS database isn't a source is nonsense.   You can attempt to prove it isn't a reliable source, but you can't do that.  

Of course VAERS is a source, and a reliable one too.  It's quite telling that you look at my "long post", and you think I'm making either of those claims.  Basically, hey Grunt - there are things you don't get.  I'd suggest you slog through my long post and try to understand my points.  VAERS is good at some things, and not good at other things.  Again, VAERS' own materials flat out state one of the limitations of their own data, is that you "Generally cannot assess if vaccine caused an adverse event".   Again, here's a screen shot from their own learning materials:

image.png.33edf869abe5beb0a9858e46980fcc67.png

 

Again, if you can't or won't understand why that last bullet point is there, you'll be lost in "believing stuff that ain't true" land.   It's an uncomfortable place to be, I'm certainly no stranger to it.  But not on this issue.

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22 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Huh.  Perhaps here is the issue:  Hey Grunt - if someone gets the covid shot, and then they get hit by a car and dies, do they end up in VAERS as a death?  I believe they do.   I'm thinking you believe they don't.  Here's why I believe it: I am part of the phase III trial for the Moderna vaccine.  I got my shots back in August.  I am now enrolled in a 5-year health tracking program.  Every two weeks, I fill out a report on any health changes I have experienced.   

Now, here's the part I'm thinking you don't get: It doesn't matter whether any of my health changes are related to COVID or not.  I report them regardless.  If I die from car crash, my death data will be entered into the database of things that have happened to vaccinated people.   

Well, I can't think of any better way to address it, than how I did above.   I'm sticking with my opinion that there are things that you don't understand, that if you did, you'd get it.   Germany gets it, from that article I shared.

 

Of course VAERS is a source, and a reliable one too.  It's quite telling that you look at my "long post", and you think I'm making either of those claims.  Basically, hey Grunt - there are things you don't get.  I'd suggest you slog through my long post and try to understand my points.  VAERS is good at some things, and not good at other things.  Again, VAERS' own materials flat out state one of the limitations of their own data, is that you "Generally cannot assess if vaccine caused an adverse event".   Again, here's a screen shot from their own learning materials:

image.png.33edf869abe5beb0a9858e46980fcc67.png

 

Again, if you can't or won't understand why that last bullet point is there, you'll be lost in "believing stuff that ain't true" land.   It's an uncomfortable place to be, I'm certainly no stranger to it.  But not on this issue.

 

I get it just fine.  I just think your assumption that a car accident will get entered as an adverse reaction to the vaccine is absurd.  The Chief Physician at the Norwegian Medicines Agency seems to think that some of those death are attributable to the vaccine.   

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On 1/23/2021 at 1:25 PM, NeuroTypical said:

Actually, to be more accurate, the nonhuman animals it was initially tested on, before anything went to human trials, were the guinea pigs.  

Maybe guinea pigs were the guinea pigs?

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On 1/23/2021 at 8:08 PM, NeuroTypical said:

Can you understand that, person0?

Sure, now can you get the people who record all COVID-19 death's to follow that same advice?
I heard someone put it this way:

Quote

If you have six months to live, then get COVID-19 and die in 3, you died from COVID-19 as the primary cause of death.

If people are willing to say that about the virus, why change tune when speaking of the vaccine?

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21 hours ago, Grunt said:

Sure, BUT there are is a known risk of severe side effects from mRNA vaccines.   A search of VAERS shows there to be death and injury associated with the vaccine.  The Norwegian Health Ministry released a warning regarding it.    People have died as a result of being vaccinated.  

It's sad to see people picking and choosing when "underlying conditions" matter and when they don't, depending on their bias.

Later..

Quote

I just think your assumption that a car accident will get entered as an adverse reaction to the vaccine is absurd.

 

 

Do you understand how VAERS works?

 

VAERS tends to report adverse events as well as adverse reactions.

Yes, car crashes appear in VAERS, as do murderous actions, child abuse, and, infamously, turning into the Incredible Hulk.

 

 

Edited by Backroads

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I think it is fair to consider that vaccination does cause injury and death.  It is normally overblown, but I think that it is not something that can be written off.

Unfortunately, too many take it too far in their avoidance of vaccinations and become anti-vaxxers in general, which has led to MANY MORE deaths due to this, with the unfortunate casualties generally being children dying from childhood illnesses that we thought were wiped out decades ago (and would be still if not for the anti-vaxxers).

Still, to say that there are no deaths from a vaccination problem is similar to saying that the deaths from COVID-19 in the US are understated.  Both do not look at the full picture.  From all estimates, deaths from Covid-19 in the US have been undercounted by up to 50% (meaning we could have almost double the number of dead from Covid-19 in the US.  Hospitals and very conservative trumpist can try to disguise the causes of death or how many are infected, individuals may die at home in apartments without being counted at first, but they normally cannot hide the number of deaths.  Just like the actuaries of insurance companies have pretty involved formulas for figuring out the true numbers of deaths from a cause (which is done with flu deaths each year) they will do the same for COVID-19.  The results thus far do not look promising, it appears that there are MANY uncounted deaths.  Probably not 50% (that's more of the worst case), but could be hovering around 25% of Covid-19 deaths being under-reported.

In that same light, from the opposite side of the spectrum, the complications from the vaccine are not being discussed all that much from what I see.  Much of this is to encourage people to be vaccinated rather than discourage them.  If the complications were discussed more, it would only serve to reinforce some of the negative attitudes some people have developed.  I have heard and read that there ARE complications and that means that there are probably deaths.

Here's the kicker though, and this applies to many of the vaccines that are out there.  Covid-19 has anywhere from a 1% - 7% (depending on the situations and circumstances, when hospitals are overwhelmed it seems to be much higher in the 5%-6% range, but when everything is going well and the numbers are few it may even be below 1% mortality) of deaths.  The Vaccine from everything I see shows that it has under a .1% mortality rate.  Some say it's even less at a .01% mortality rate.  That does not mean there is no risk, but even at it's worse, I have 1/10 percent chance of dying from it in the worst case comparatively to Covid-19, and 1/7000 chance comparatively in the best cases.  I think I'll take the vaccine with those odds.

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11 hours ago, person0 said:

I heard someone put it this way:

Quote

If you have six months to live, then get COVID-19 and die in 3, you died from COVID-19 as the primary cause of death.

If people are willing to say that about the virus, why change tune when speaking of the vaccine?

 

Well, you need a complete picture to draw any conclusions.   You have to gather data on when the "6 months to live" people actually die.   You have to look at the death rates of the unvaccinated, and the death rates of the vaccinated, and see if there is a substantial difference.  You have to look at rates of COVID-free, vs COVID positive deaths, as well as the causes of death.  

Yes, show me a data set of "here's 1000 people who were given 6 months to live for non-COVID reasons, and as you can see, they all lasted around 6 months, except for the vaccinated folks - they tended to die at 3 months".  Show me that chart.  Without it, all you're doing here, is giving an irrational response based on half of the story.  Without the bell curve, you simply can't say what you "heard someone put it".  It's not justified.  

On the other hand, we do have good growing data on terminally ill people who catch covid. We've always known the flu is a big cause of death in our older and medically fragile populations, and from that standpoint, covid is just another particularly bad flu.  "When grandma got cancer, we hoped to have another 6 months with her, but then she caught the flu/COVID, and died in 6 weeks." - quite a common story for terminally ill people who catch the flu or covid.

Bell curves - learn it, live it, love it.  Or remain unable to understand a foundational principle of virology and data sets, and remain chained to anecdotes and emotion.  Knowledge will set you free, my friend.

Edited by NeuroTypical

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3 hours ago, Backroads said:

Later..

 

 

Do you understand how VAERS works?

 

VAERS tends to report adverse events as well as adverse reactions.

Yes, car crashes appear in VAERS, as do murderous actions, child abuse, and, infamously, turning into the Incredible Hulk.

 

 

I do understand how VAERS works, that's why I use it.  Do you?   All of those things appear in VAERS.  They have nothing to do with COVID Vaccine, though.  That's why they have report filters.   That's what makes it an absurd assumption.

Edited by Grunt

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2 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

I think it is fair to consider that vaccination does cause injury and death.  It is normally overblown, but I think that it is not something that can be written off.

 

And that's been my entire point.   Odd that people appear to be writing it off.

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36 minutes ago, Grunt said:

   Odd that people appear to be writing it off.

It is not odd...  It is understanding human nature.   As a general rule humans are bad at math and probabilities. The more people hear about something the more likely they are to think it will happen to them.  Take the lottery for example.  A person is more likely to get hit by lightning Twice then win the lottery... Yet people still think that they will be the winner one day and play because they hear all about the winners every time.

Same with a vaccine.  Odds of an adverse reaction from a vaccine are very possibly at the "Winning the Lottery" level.  If the whole point is to get everyone to take it then you have to avoid spooking many of them into irrationally thinking that they are injecting death.

The problem of course is our society is becoming more and more polarized and people want their absolutes.  If you do not disclose everything then  you are dishonest and can't be trusted, but if you do disclose everything then the most trivial and unlikely to happen events get blown up all out of proportion and context.

 

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26 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

It is not odd...  It is understanding human nature.  

 

I suppose so.  As someone who prefers as much information as possible when assessing risk, it seems odd to me.  I would assume everyone would want all the data when making decisions.

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4 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Bell curves - learn it, live it, love it.  Or remain unable to understand a foundational principle of virology and data sets, and remain chained to anecdotes and emotion.  Knowledge will set you free, my friend.

I understand data.  When the virus first hit I regularly downloaded the CDC data to do my own statistical analysis.  It appears to me that you may be interpreting more from my words than what is being said, and more than what is meant.  I disagree with the person who made the statement about getting the virus and dying in six months rather than three; I was merely pointing out the hypocrisy.  I think my statement of facts from the beginning is very simple.

FACT:  Old people have died in response to the vaccine.
FACT:  President Nelson is within the proper age group to be negatively affected, but as far as we know, has none of the pre-existing issues that would result in an adverse reaction (i.e. death).
FACT:  It can be reasonably assumed that if President Nelson were to die from an adverse reaction to the vaccine, millions of members would shy away from taking it.  It can likewise be reasonably assumed that the absence of an adverse reaction will soften the hearts of millions who might otherwise be opposed, for whatever reason.

I haven't said a single thing to suggest the vaccine is bad, or to suggest people shouldn't take it, etc.  You seem to be in some kind of defense mode where every negative sounding statement about the vaccine automatically makes someone an anti-vaxer or something.  I suppose it makes sense given you were part of the trial, but it still seems overblown and inappropriate.

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6 hours ago, Grunt said:

I do understand how VAERS works, that's why I use it.  Do you?   All of those things appear in VAERS.  They have nothing to do with COVID Vaccine, though.  That's why they have report filters.   That's what makes it an absurd assumption.

Give it time and they likely will start being connected with the vaccines.

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On 1/24/2021 at 1:31 PM, Grunt said:

This report, now over a week old, directly attributes deaths to vaccination symptoms.

Where?  The word "death" doesn't appear anywhere on that link.  It uses terms like "Reported suspected adverse reactions"

When I follow through to the link Reported suspected adverse reactions to COVID-19 vaccines as of 21 January 2021, here's what it says (bolding mine):

Quote

A total of 30 reports concerning deaths have been processed. This does not imply that there is a causal relationship between the deaths and the vaccine. A common characteristic of the deaths is that they have occurred amongst frail elderly nursing home residents with serious underlying conditions. Nursing home residents are a priority group for vaccination because they are at very high risk of severe illness or death from COVID-19. In several of these, the reporter states that no relationship with vaccination is suspected and that the event was due to an underlying illness suffered by the patient. However, it cannot be ruled out that common adverse reactions to vaccines, such as fever and nausea, could have aggravated an underlying condition in frail patients. The Norwegian Institute of Public Health has stressed that health professionals must carry out a thorough risk-benefit assessment before vaccinating very frail patients.  For those with limited life expectancy, the benefits of being vaccinated may be marginal. 

What am I missing?  In a thread about people seeing what they want to see, can you help me see what you're seeing?

Edited by NeuroTypical

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5 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Where?  The word "death" doesn't appear anywhere on that link.  It uses terms like "Reported suspected adverse reactions"

When I follow through to the link Reported suspected adverse reactions to COVID-19 vaccines as of 21 January 2021, here's what it says (bolding mine):

What am I missing?  In a thread about people seeing what they want to see, can you help me see what you're seeing?

You're missing the link between the two articles. The Chief Physician issued the statement based on the data.  I'm not sure why you're having trouble connecting the dots.   There have been adverse reactions, including deaths, reported after receiving the vaccine.  Physicians have attributed some of those deaths to the reactions to the vaccines.

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9 minutes ago, Grunt said:

I'm not sure why you're having trouble connecting the dots.

Because although you and person0 are both firmly entrenched in your belief that the COVID vaccination has caused death, neither of you can actually cite your source.  You cite sources that most absolutely, in no uncertain terms, do NOT make the claim you are making.

Here are exact quotes from your sources:

"This does not imply that there is a causal relationship between the deaths and the vaccine."
"Limitation of VAERS data: Generally cannot assess if vaccine caused an adverse event."

You and person0 seem determined to want to force those dots connect to "there is a causal relationship between the deaths and the vaccine", and "VAERS data can assess if vaccine caused an adverse event".

Things mean what they mean.  They don't mean the opposite of what they mean.  No matter how much Grunt and Person0 want them to.

 

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In all the links shared on this thread, I don't see anything that states or shows that the vaccine caused a death.  That might be what some people take away from them, but I don't see it explicitly stated, or even really implied.

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1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

Because although you and person0 are both firmly entrenched in your belief that the COVID vaccination has caused death, neither of you can actually cite your source.  You cite sources that most absolutely, in no uncertain terms, do NOT make the claim you are making.

Here are exact quotes from your sources:

"This does not imply that there is a causal relationship between the deaths and the vaccine."
"Limitation of VAERS data: Generally cannot assess if vaccine caused an adverse event."

You and person0 seem determined to want to force those dots connect to "there is a causal relationship between the deaths and the vaccine", and "VAERS data can assess if vaccine caused an adverse event".

Things mean what they mean.  They don't mean the opposite of what they mean.  No matter how much Grunt and Person0 want them to.

 

I've cited it three times.   I've explained it to you at a fairly elementary level.   I'm done.

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26 minutes ago, dprh said:

In all the links shared on this thread, I don't see anything that states or shows that the vaccine caused a death.  That might be what some people take away from them, but I don't see it explicitly stated, or even really implied.

One last time.

Quote

In a worrying development, 23 elderly people died within a short time of receiving their first coronavirus vaccine shots in Norway. However, there is no confirmation yet if there is direct correlation between the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 jab and these deaths.

Although a direct correlation between the Pfizer jab and these deaths is yet to be established, experts have said that 13 out of 23 people who died showed common side effects of mRNA vaccines such as diarrhea, nausea and fever.

Quote

Apart from the 23 deaths, nine people have reported serious side effects without fatal outcomes such as allergic reactions, strong discomfort and severe fever. 

 

Edited by Grunt

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