Military Background

[mikbone]

D&C 88:112 And Michael, the seventh angel, even the archangel, shall gather together his armies, even the hosts of heaven.

I know we didn’t fight with knifes or guns.  But we did fight.  There was a struggle.

It seems that neither Elohim nor Jehovah took part in the fray.

If Michael was the 5 Star General, does it make sense that the other archangels were 4 star generals, that the leaders of God’s kingdom on Earth were high ranking military officers?

Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Abraham 3:22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;
23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

Do you think that there were conscientious objectors?

Do you perceive yourself as having a military background?

Armies have all kinds of personnel.  Many soldiers are support staff.  

Revelations 12: 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, …
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

How did we use the blood of the Lamb, and our testimonies to overcome?  (How was there blood of the Lamb at this point in time?)

There were no Kamikazes apparently.  I wonder if there were casualties, wounded?

Edited March 31, 2023 by mikbone

[Traveler]

I have pondered the war in heaven.  Obviously, there could be no physical damage – not even a physical threat.  There are some things for which I believe we have some idea.  We are told in scripture that heaven was divided and that a third part followed after Lucifer (Satan).  The culture that provided this notion did not have math theory that included fractions.  What this means is that Satan did not take 1/3 of heaven with him as many modern thinkers interpret the revelation.  What it means is that heaven was divided into 3 parts – one of which followed Satan.  There is no indication if the parts was somewhat the same in number or of one was much bigger than the other two combined. 

We do, however have a good idea about two of the parts of heaven.  One was the part that followed Satan, another was the part referenced in the scripture @mikbone quoted.  They were called the noble and great.  There is no mention of the final third part.  But we know they were not noble and great and we know that they did not follow Satan.   What I find interesting is that humanity was also divided into 3 parts in mortality as symbolically represented in the sons of Noah.  The first division are the children of the covenant (represented by Shem).  The second are the Gentiles represented by Japheth.  The third group are the infidels (rejectors of divine covenant) represented by Ham.

The children of G-d are again divided into 3 groups in the resurrection and final judgement – Telestial, Terrestrial and Celestial.

My impressions is that these divisions into 3 groups are related.  That the society of earth is a parallel to the society of the pre-existence and like wise that the resurrection of glory society is parallel to the society of earth and the society of the pre-existence.   I have speculated that the individuals in the glories of the resurrection will have mostly displayed their military colors and preferences in the pre-existence and during our mortal probation.   I have pondered if there will be any exceptions but have concluded such pondering is fruitless.

What I believe that I have concluded that the methods of war that were established in the pre-existence have continued in mortality and will continue even after the resurrection – that the same concepts that divided the Children of G-d have and will continue – even after the resurrection.  That this is the primary reason that there will be a separation and division.  Not just of individuals but division in beliefs, laws, ordinances and covenants.

 

The Traveler

[Just_A_Guy]

56 minutes ago, mikbone said:

Revelations 12: 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, …
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

How did we use the blood of the Lamb, and our testimonies to overcome?  (How was there blood of the Lamb at this point in time?)

There were no Kamikazes apparently.  I wonder if there were casualties, wounded?

It seems like the common explanation is that it was a “war of words”.  The scriptural accounts feel like there was more to it than that; but it’s hard to say what, exactly, that may have been.

But your quote above made me think.  Revelation 12:11 makes it seem like “death” (or some analogue of it) was a real possibility for those who engaged against Satan and his followers.  If we *do* take the “war of words” paradigm - one possible result of engaging in reasoned discussion/debate with an adversary, is that you may wind up being convinced to their point of view.

Circling back to my first paragraph:  how, physically, does one expel a spiritual being from a (presumably) physical location?  If it can be done merely through invoking the name of the Son, then why was it such a struggle and why did it take armies of the faithful to do it?  If it was merely a debating contest during a period at which hearts and minds might have been changed:  how did God decide to say “enough”—to say that those who get bodies versus those who don’t will be determined by where people stand now as opposed to where they stood half an hour ago or where they will stand three hours in the future?  Did God cast the rebels out, or did they choose to leave once they got to a point where they found His presence intolerable?  And if the latter, might the function of Adam and his armies actually have been to engage Lucifer and the other avowed rebels one by one, and annoy/ goad them into choosing to leave?  A sort of celestial “whittling and whistling brigade”?

Edited March 31, 2023 by Just_A_Guy

[Traveler]

16 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

It seems like the common explanation is that it was a “war of words”.  The scriptural accounts feel like there was more to it than that; but it’s hard to say what, exactly, that may have been.

But your quote above made me think.  Revelation 12:11 makes it seem like “death” (or some analogue of it) was a real possibility for those who engaged against Satan and his followers.  If we *do* take the “war of words” paradigm - one possible result of engaging in reasoned discussion/debate with an adversary, is that you may wind up being convinced to their point of view.

Circling back to my first paragraph:  how, physically, does one expel a spiritual being from a (presumably) physical location?  If it can be done merely through invoking the name of the Son, then why was it such a struggle and why did it take armies of the faithful to do it?  If it was merely a debating contest during a period at which hearts and minds might have been changed:  how did God decide to say “enough”—to say that those who get bodies versus those who don’t will be determined by where people stand now as opposed to where they stood half an hour ago or where they will stand three hours in the future?  Did God cast the rebels out, or did they choose to leave once they got to a point where they found His presence intolerable?  And if the latter, might the function of Adam and his armies actually have been to engage Lucifer and the other avowed rebels one by one, and annoy/ goad them into choosing to leave?  A sort of celestial “whittling and whistling brigade”?

I appreciate your input.  I believe we are informed that the primary expression of battle was agency.  I have pondered why the term agency is used rather than will or choice – especially since agency, as we are told, is a gift from G-d and not something we possess of ourselves.  Our will and choice is something that in ourselves alone and not given to us.  Since agency is a gift from G-d – then the utilization of agency is the primary tool of division (weapon utilized in battle) – anyway that is what I speculate.

An example – I speculate that if Satan and his followers could excite someone to anger that they could win over their soles and subject them to a bondage allowing them to rule over those they had subdued. But then with expressions of love and compassion – perhaps those that are noble and great could comfort someone in a bondage of hate and release into a covenant of love and compassion.

I realize that there are difficulties with the above but it perhaps a concept for consideration.

There is another problem – we are told in scripture that no unclean thing can endure the presents of the Father.  This would mean that any unclean thought of any kind would force any individual entertaining such a thought from the Father presents.  Somehow there would need to be repentance or a way of ridding of unclean concepts for someone to return.  It is difficult for me to believe I survived the entire pre-existence without a single unclean thought or idea so that I could be a part of thouse that were able to experience mortality.

 

The Traveler

[NeuroTypical]

FYI, there's a pretty dang fascinating series of fiction books by LDS author Chris Stewart out there that covers the topic.  Long career flying rescue helicopters and the B-1B bomber

 

Book 1 covers the premortal existence and the war in heaven.  Book 2 has the characters we met in book 1 come to earth either get bodies, or exist as slaves to lucifer in the world.  The rest of the series is about nuclear terrorism, and a post-apocalyptic America where satan is at the height of his power.  I can't say it's the most theologically agreeable work, but it does a really cool fictional job of picturing what the war in heaven was like, and how lucifer and his minions exercise their power over the people on earth. 

Edited March 31, 2023 by NeuroTypical

[Ironhold]

2 hours ago, mikbone said:

D&C 88:112 And Michael, the seventh angel, even the archangel, shall gather together his armies, even the hosts of heaven.

I know we didn’t fight with knifes or guns.  But we did fight.  There was a struggle.

It seems that neither Elohim nor Jehovah took part in the fray.

If Michael was the 5 Star General, does it make sense that the other archangels were 4 star generals, that the leaders of God’s kingdom on Earth were high ranking military officers?

Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Abraham 3:22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;
23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

Do you think that there were conscientious objectors?

Do you perceive yourself as having a military background?

Armies have all kinds of personnel.  Many soldiers are support staff.  

Revelations 12: 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, …
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

How did we use the blood of the Lamb, and our testimonies to overcome?  (How was there blood of the Lamb at this point in time?)

There were no Kamikazes apparently.  I wonder if there were casualties, wounded?

You assume that the war was *literal* rather than spiritual and intellectual. 

Remember - psy ops. I don't even need to leave my house to melt someone's brain. 

[mikbone]

2 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

 If we *do* take the “war of words” paradigm - one possible result of engaging in reasoned discussion/debate with an adversary, is that you may wind up being convinced to their point of view.

Yup.

We must have had an basic understanding of the Plan of Salvation and a concept of the Blood of the Lamb.  Which in turn suggests that we must have had faith in both Jehovah as a capable soul and Elohim's judgement.  As well as faith in our personal character - such that we would navigate the blinded test successfully.

If someone lost faith during the battle and traded sides, do you think they understood that they were effectively choosing spiritual death or were they hoping that Lucifer's plan and their votes would convince Elohim to change his mind?  

Moses 4: Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;

From the above it looks like Jehovah cast out the third part.  I think that Lucifer and his host had little to no faith in Jehovah - and did not understand his power.

Must have been a rude awakening when they finally started to see their errors.

Edited March 31, 2023 by mikbone

[NeuroTypical]

5 minutes ago, Ironhold said:

You assume that the war was *literal* rather than spiritual and intellectual. 

Remember - psy ops. I don't even need to leave my house to melt someone's brain. 

The Chris Stewart book was interesting.   The premortal family consisted of 5 siblings.  3 of them were stalwart and followed Christ.  Two of them were seduced by Baalam, and ended up in lucifer's camp.  Plot twist - one of the brothers had been sent 'undercover' into the dark one's circles by Teancum (who was one of Jesus' valiant ones in the pre-existence as well).  Undercover brother managed to get the last brother out of lucifer's influence just inches before the final battle.   Next book had that last brother wavering in his testimony, still being tempted by the fallen angels. 

[mikbone]

13 minutes ago, Ironhold said:

You assume that the war was *literal* rather than spiritual and intellectual. 

Remember - psy ops. I don't even need to leave my house to melt someone's brain. 

Yup, thus my comment on casualties / wounded.

Totally into Scanners / D&D

Edited March 31, 2023 by mikbone

[Jersey Boy]

3 hours ago, Traveler said:

I have pondered the war in heaven.  Obviously, there could be no physical damage – not even a physical threat.  There are some things for which I believe we have some idea.  We are told in scripture that heaven was divided and that a third part followed after Lucifer (Satan).  The culture that provided this notion did not have math theory that included fractions.  What this means is that Satan did not take 1/3 of heaven with him as many modern thinkers interpret the revelation.  What it means is that heaven was divided into 3 parts – one of which followed Satan.  There is no indication if the parts was somewhat the same in number or of one was much bigger than the other two combined. 

We do, however have a good idea about two of the parts of heaven.  One was the part that followed Satan, another was the part referenced in the scripture @mikbone quoted.  They were called the noble and great.  There is no mention of the final third part.  But we know they were not noble and great and we know that they did not follow Satan.   What I find interesting is that humanity was also divided into 3 parts in mortality as symbolically represented in the sons of Noah.  The first division are the children of the covenant (represented by Shem).  The second are the Gentiles represented by Japheth.  The third group are the infidels (rejectors of divine covenant) represented by Ham.

The children of G-d are again divided into 3 groups in the resurrection and final judgement – Telestial, Terrestrial and Celestial.

My impressions is that these divisions into 3 groups are related.  That the society of earth is a parallel to the society of the pre-existence and like wise that the resurrection of glory society is parallel to the society of earth and the society of the pre-existence.   I have speculated that the individuals in the glories of the resurrection will have mostly displayed their military colors and preferences in the pre-existence and during our mortal probation.   I have pondered if there will be any exceptions but have concluded such pondering is fruitless.

What I believe that I have concluded that the methods of war that were established in the pre-existence have continued in mortality and will continue even after the resurrection – that the same concepts that divided the Children of G-d have and will continue – even after the resurrection.  That this is the primary reason that there will be a separation and division.  Not just of individuals but division in beliefs, laws, ordinances and covenants.

 

The Traveler

If those who remained loyal to Christ and freedom were the first part and those who followed Lucifer and tyranny were the third part, who exactly were those in the second part and who did they follow? You say they were not numbered among the noble and great who followed Christ, but are not the rank and file soldiers who fight for their nation in war considered loyal? Or are they only considered loyal if they do something above and beyond the call of duty?

Edited March 31, 2023 by Jersey Boy

[mikbone]

This verse concerning Cain also gives particular insight.

Moses 5: 24 For from this time forth thou shalt be the father of his lies; thou shalt be called Perdition; for thou wast also before the world.

Was Cain on an undercover mission under Lucifer's command?  And did he manage to slip through by some how fulfilling the requirements necessary to keep his first estate?

Abraham 3:26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.

[Vort]

1 hour ago, mikbone said:

This verse concerning Cain also gives particular insight.

Moses 5: 24 For from this time forth thou shalt be the father of his lies; thou shalt be called Perdition; for thou wast also before the world.

Was Cain on an undercover mission under Lucifer's command?  And did he manage to slip through by some how fulfilling the requirements necessary to keep his first estate?

No and no. God's ways are not an intricate network of subtle rules that someone sufficiently clever can game. Cain is the father of Satan's lies because he brings those lies into being and executes Satan's secret combinations of destruction. He is Perdition because he is an eternal being ("...also before the world") who is eternally lost to salvation by his own designs.

[mikbone]

9 minutes ago, Vort said:

No and no. God's ways are not an intricate network of subtle rules that someone sufficiently clever can game. Cain is the father of Satan's lies because he brings those lies into being and executes Satan's secret combinations of destruction. He is Perdition because he is an eternal being ("...also before the world") who is eternally lost to salvation by his own designs.

But he earned a body.

He kept his first estate.

And there is some esoteric doctrine suggesting he still walks the Earth.

If he is still on Earth perhaps he can repent.

God lengthened his stay on Earth like the three Nephites.  Lucifer didn’t lengthen his life.

I have no idea what he is doing now.

He is a bit of a conundrum.

[Vort]

3 minutes ago, mikbone said:

But he earned a body.

He kept his first estate.

And there is some esoteric doctrine suggesting he still walks the Earth.

If he is still on Earth perhaps he can repent.

God lengthened his stay on Earth like the three Nephites.  Lucifer didn’t lengthen his life.

I have no idea what he is doing now.

He is a bit of a conundrum.

I may have misunderstood your point I thought I was responding to. My stance is that Cain did not somehow slip by and technically fulfill God's commandments, all the while secretly working in conjunction with Satan to establish his will. Cain, like other wicked people—like us—was seduced by Satan's lies and chose to follow him because he liked what he heard.

Can Cain repent? I don't know. I don't even know if I know what that would mean. My impression throughout my life has been that Cain is beyond redemption by his own choice, to be resurrected but never again to be united to the Father and the Son. I suppose it's possible that doctrine is wrong. I do not know the mind of God, except in a few exceedingly small things. The amount of real truth that I comprehend would not fill God's thimble.

One thing I am sure of: The Saints are encouraged and even commanded to fear not. If we are fearful or apprehensive about the future, we are failing to live up to our privileges. I hope to learn some things this coming weekend to help me in that regard.

[pam]

4 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

If those who remained loyal to Christ and freedom were the first part and those who followed Lucifer and tyranny were the third part, who exactly were those in the second part and who did they follow? You say they were not numbered among the noble and great who followed Christ, but are not the rank and file soldiers who fight for their nation in war considered loyal? Or are they only considered loyal if they do something above and beyond the call of duty?

I've always been a big confused about this myself.  

[askandanswer]

I suspect that the phrase war in heaven can be replaced by the phrase disagreement in heaven, without any loss of significant meaning. I see the disagreement in heaven as being somewhat akin to an online debate, where the whole world has an opportunity to express a view and choose a side, with lots of debates and side issues going on about various sub-issues, or even various plans, until the whole series of debates and details, has been negotiated/discussed/fought over, with people moving back and forth between different positions, until the whole process comes down to just one or two key issues

According to the accounts we have of that disagreement, and its consequences, Lucifer fought partly for what he believed in - everybody's automatic, lesser quality salvation, thanks to a reduced quality of agency - and partly for his own honour and glory. Jesus and His supporters fought for what they/we believed in - the opportunity for everybody to have a higher quality of salvation depending on how they used their agency - and all the glory has ended up going to Jesus. From what I understand, under Satan's plan, everybody would be saved to the same degree of glory, and they would then have eternity in which to learn how to use their agency. Under Jesus' plan, people would be saved to varying degrees of glory, and they would then have eternity in which to continue learning how to use their agency. It might also have been the case that under both plans, the extent/nature/quality of one's salvation would be related to the extent/nature/quality of one's adherence/committment/obedience to whichever plan ended up being agreed upon. Under both plans, Lucifer and Jesus would continue to have some sort of  dominion/guidance/leadership/influence/authority over those whose salvation they had enabled.

I'm vaguely pondering the implications of the suggestion that history is written by the winning side.

Edited April 1, 2023 by askandanswer

[zil2]

16 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

Lucifer fought ... partly for his own honour and glory.

Partly?  You give too much credit.

16 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

and all the glory has ended up going to Jesus

Where do you get this?  It's not what scripture says.

18 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

under Satan's plan, everybody... would then have eternity in which to learn how to use their agency.

Again, where do you get this?  I know of no scripture that suggests this.

 

 

[askandanswer]

20 minutes ago, zil2 said:

Partly?  You give too much credit.

Where do you get this?  It's not what scripture says.

Again, where do you get this?  I know of no scripture that suggests this.

 

 

I don't think we have enough information to make any reliable conclusions about the extent to which differing motivations influenced Lucifer's decisions. However, I think its not unreasonable to suggest that one third of premortal spirits would not have fought solely for the glory of one individual. I don't think the idea of fighting for Lucifer's glory would have been a sufficient motivation for so many spirits to have fought so hard against the opposing idea. There must have been something in it for them other than just Lucifer's glory.

Any glory that goes to God also goes to Jesus because they are One.

Under both both plans, everbody will live eternally. Some might use that eternity to learn how to play marbles. Some might use it to to learn how to build worlds. And some might use it to learn how to use their agency. The most important thing you need to learn anything is time, and we will all have lots of that.  

 

 

[zil2]

46 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

I don't think we have enough information to make any reliable conclusions about the extent to which differing motivations influenced Lucifer's decisions. However, I think its not unreasonable to suggest that one third of premortal spirits would not have fought solely for the glory of one individual. I don't think the idea of fighting for Lucifer's glory would have been a sufficient motivation for so many spirits to have fought so hard against the opposing idea. There must have been something in it for them other than just Lucifer's glory.

Any glory that goes to God also goes to Jesus because they are One.

Under both both plans, everbody will live eternally. Some might use that eternity to learn how to play marbles. Some might use it to to learn how to build worlds. And some might use it to learn how to use their agency. The most important thing you need to learn anything is time, and we will all have lots of that. 

IMO, this does not match your assertions.  It does, however, clarify that your assertions were only your own speculations and conclusions without scripture to back them up and that's good enough for me to accept them as such.  I disagree with your conclusions / speculations on the three issues I quoted.

[askandanswer]

25 minutes ago, zil2 said:

IMO, this does not match your assertions.  It does, however, clarify that your assertions were only your own speculations and conclusions without scripture to back them up and that's good enough for me to accept them as such.  I disagree with your conclusions / speculations on the three issues I quoted.

Yes, definitely my own speculations, although influenced by scripture. Like so many things in life, they are possibilities with varying degrees of likelihood. There are very few absolute truths that we can completely rely on and many less likely possibilities become more likely as new ideas and information emerges. 

[laronius]

In Talmage's Jesus the Christ, he seems to imply that the other "1/3" were individuals who did not actively oppose the plan of salvation but did not join in the war against Satan either. They kind of sat on the sidelines. This would fit with what @Travelermentioned about them being likened unto the Terrestrial kingdom, not faithful to the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Concerning those who followed Satan, I have often wondered how they could have possibly thought it was a good idea to oppose God. It's not like this life where we generally have to walk by faith. HE WAS STANDING RIGHT THERE!!! "We can either support our divine Parent who possesses unlimited power or we support this dude over here. Hmmm, I like this dude's chances." SERIOUSLY? 

The best theory I've heard on their motivation to oppose God was their recognition that they would totally fail big-time in their mortal probation and Satan offered to them something that sounded better. But I'm still stuck at the idea that they thought they could win and I don't know that I believe that Satan was just really convincing or good at rilling them up to anger. Satan was definitely not a dumb person and he apparently thought he had a chance of actually accomplishing something. So to me it seems there's more to the situation than has yet been revealed.

Concerning the idea of it being a "war" although there was not the physical violence that we often associate with war, the eternal consequences of this conflict far exceeds that of anything that has ever transpired on the earth. So very much was at stake that the term war is perhaps the closest thing we have to express the magnitude of it, though the term still falls short. 

[CV75]

22 hours ago, mikbone said:

D&C 88:112 And Michael, the seventh angel, even the archangel, shall gather together his armies, even the hosts of heaven.

I know we didn’t fight with knifes or guns.  But we did fight.  There was a struggle.

It seems that neither Elohim nor Jehovah took part in the fray.

If Michael was the 5 Star General, does it make sense that the other archangels were 4 star generals, that the leaders of God’s kingdom on Earth were high ranking military officers?

Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Abraham 3:22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;
23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

Do you think that there were conscientious objectors?

Do you perceive yourself as having a military background?

Armies have all kinds of personnel.  Many soldiers are support staff.  

Revelations 12: 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, …
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

How did we use the blood of the Lamb, and our testimonies to overcome?  (How was there blood of the Lamb at this point in time?)

There were no Kamikazes apparently.  I wonder if there were casualties, wounded?

I believe they used the blood of the Lamb, or faith in "the atonement which was prepared from the foundation of the world for all mankind, which ever were since the fall of Adam, or who are, or who ever shall be, even unto the end of the world." If the brother of Jared "saw the finger of the Lord; and it was as the finger of a man, like unto flesh and blood," and the Lord confirmed to him, "Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood... Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people." then it sems reasonable that premortal spirits saw Him and His Atonement in the same fashion. Perhaps Ether 3:14 is more of a reminder than something the brother of Jared had not known in the previous estate.

I think Moses 6: 56 - 63 was taught premortally, so the elements of water and blood were things in that spirts could comprehend at the level of faith and hope if not knowledge.

[mikbone]

55 minutes ago, CV75 said:

then it sems reasonable that premortal spirits saw Him and His Atonement in the same fashion.

 

Abraham 3:24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God,

I agree.  There was something about Jehovah that made him different and special.

No doubt this difference helped us to place our faith in Him.  And… infuriated Lucifer.

[Vort]

5 hours ago, laronius said:

Concerning those who followed Satan, I have often wondered how they could have possibly thought it was a good idea to oppose God. It's not like this life where we generally have to walk by faith. HE WAS STANDING RIGHT THERE!!! "We can either support our divine Parent who possesses unlimited power or we support this dude over here. Hmmm, I like this dude's chances." SERIOUSLY?

I used to think the same thing. Then a series of events happened, one of which might have been the crux upon which my opinion shifted.

I had a marvelous experience as a stake missionary (today, "ward missionary") teaching an investigator (today, "friend" or something like that). She had said to begin with that she was not going to be baptized into the "Mormon Church". At some point in our discussion (today, "lesson"), I asked her the following: If God himself stood before you right now and told you that he wanted you to be baptized into the Church of Jesus Christ, would you do it? Her response: "Of course." (BTW, she was soon baptized along with her children and was a delightful part of our ward until her sudden, tragic death a few years later from an asthma attack.)

Emboldened by this experience, I tried the same trick a couple of months later with another lady who was investigating. I asked her the same question, and to my shock, she said, "Well, I don't know. I would have to find out more first." Thinking that she could not possibly have understood me correctly, I carefully rephrased the question, emphasizing that God Himself literally spoke to her and told her to be baptized. Her response was identical.

The lesson I learned was that, for some people, the mere word of God is not sufficient. They feel the need to have everything explained upfront, and when that is not done—even when it is not possible—they simply refuse to budge. Perhaps such is the case with the aforementioned third part.

[CV75]

8 hours ago, mikbone said:

 

Abraham 3:24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God,

I agree.  There was something about Jehovah that made him different and special.

No doubt this difference helped us to place our faith in Him.  And… infuriated Lucifer.

Yes, there's a lot in Abraham 3 about that (e.g., verses 18-19). He was intelligent than us all, and He had already become one with the Father as John 17 talks about (as verses 21 onward indicate). Where "Lord" and "God" are used interchangeably in this chapter, it seems that Christ is speaking by divine investiture of authority.