A General Authority Will Be Visiting Me This Saturday at My House

[LDSGator]

32 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

My grandpa was a GA, I’m a direct descendant of Brigham Young,

what was it like having a grandpa who was a GA?

[clbent04]

4 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

what was it like having a grandpa who was a GA?

I thought my tea party comment would’ve given it away that I was just trying to be funny. Sorry. I didn’t intend to continue being misleading.  

Edited April 13, 2023 by clbent04

[LDSGator]

Just now, clbent04 said:

I thought my tea party comment would’ve given it away that I was just trying to funny. Sorry. I didn’t intend to continue being misleading.  

No worries, I’m the one who believed it!!! Lol. 🤣

and you owe me a Pepsi bro! 

[Traveler]

20 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

If I believe that God has the power to forgive me for my sins and that He conquered death for us all, how could I not believe in other inexplicable events?

Let’s try again.  Why is the most often quoted scripture (ancient text of Old Testament era) by New Testament authors (including claims of what Jesus said) – not included in the any modern version of the Bible.  If the books to be included in the Bible were not fabricated by men – why is there no revelation indicating what scripture books should be included in Bible scripture?

In general, if you can believe there is nothing fabricated in the Bible – why do you believe the Book of Mormon was fabricated?

 

The Traveler

[Carborendum]

1 hour ago, clbent04 said:

Good question. Yes, many passages, but primarily the Savior’s words as recorded in the first four books of the New Testament. The words of Isaiah I find to be powerful and much of what is written by Paul.

Fairly typical.

56 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

I take much of what the Bible says literally although I think we all eventually wonder things like how exactly did Adam and Eve appear on the Earth (was it instantaneous or did it take years to form their bodies and what were the specifics the rib bone operation?).

I haven’t had the same feeling that the Bible or any parts of it were fabricated compared to when I read the Book of Mormon. 

I'll give you something to consider.  I hope you have some time.  This will take a while.  But I hope you can get the meaning of what I'm trying to say.

Before I do so, I need to make two points very clear:

I AM NOT SAYING: That the Bible is a bunch of propaganda.  It is not.  It is the word of God.  The overall story is God's word as He would have it for us.  I am not saying that we're being duped by the Bible.  It is truth.  I am not saying that it was all made up to sell something.  That would be ridiculous in the grand scheme.

WHAT I AM SAYING:  The method of communication is that of metaphor and archetype.  Why?  Because it is a very efficient method of communicating.  It is also a highly effective method of persuasion.  That is why it is such a convincing book.  And why shouldn't it be?  The Lord wants to convince people.  He, Himself used parables (which rely on archetypes and metaphors) to convey messages with layer upon layer of meaning.  It was beautifully done in a way that only Deity could have done.

As you really get into the language of the Bible, you'll find a whole lot more of it is figurative than literal (hence we read things like Adam's rib).  Don't get me wrong, the overall narrative of what happened in the Bible is absolutely true.  But the wording, phrasing, and specific details, etc. is highly metaphoric.  It is meant to be that way because it is meant to give meaning behind meaning.  The message conveyed in the Bible uses archetypes rather than drawn out explanations.  And it is beautiful.  Take a look at what I wrote about the Parable of the Wedding Feast. This is why you consider Isaiah, Paul, and the Gospels to be so special.  They use these methods more than most other books of the Bible.

The Book of Mormon, OTOH, is completely different.  While there are a few parables, visions, and metaphors here and there, the great majority of it is straight narrative.  The stories themselves don't speak to the inner archetypes of all humanity.  It simply shows examples of how they play out in real life.  It is plain.  It's like a newspaper.

Why does that make a difference?

When we go to see a movie, we have certain expectations.  Within those preconceived notions of what we expect, we leave room for the unexpected to help entertain us. This is called the "willful suspension of disbelief." But here's the stop gap.  If the movie doesn't do a good job of properly framing things within those preconceived notions, then we just can't suspend our disbelief enough to actually "get" the movie.  One perfect example would be if we compared the recent D&D film with the one from 2000.  I think we can universally agree that the 2000 version was AWFUL!!!  from an entertainment perspective.  But if it were just a story.  It would be "just a story."  It wasn't meant to entertain.

How does that apply here?  The methodology used in the Bible is primarily meant to speak to us psychologically and emotionally.  Once it pulls us in, we can then begin to develop the spiritual messages contained in its pages.

The Book of Mormon doesn't use the psychological and emotional. It simply gives the narrative.  It's a newspaper that's all.  And when we just read a newspaper, we don't expect a newspaper to talk about miracles happening.  We don't expect the power of God displayed in the manner that the BoM displays it.  We're not in the right frame of mind to receive it.

The Bible certainly has a great influence on your heart and mind.  But what about your spirit?  Can you describe what that is like and how the spiritual different from emotional/psychological?

STORY TIME: As a missionary, I taught a man who was married to a member of the Church.  He had agreed to meet with the missionaries on a fairly regular basis.  He was a very nice, humble, penitent, and spiritual man.  He was very knowledgeable about the Bible; he faithfully read it every day. 

His wife had told me once upon a time that she had, on more than one occasion, witnessed such an outpouring of the Spirit during some of the discussions with the missionaries that she couldn't understand why he never felt it.  I discussed it with him.  I discovered that he had never actually read the BoM.  It wasn't that he refused.  He just didn't have any motivation to do so.

He further said that he tries to only do what the Lord tells him to do.  And when he asks, he gets one of three answers (Yes, No, Wait).  As far as the Book of Mormon, he got nothing.  None of those three.  I found that odd.

I simply opened up the book and started reading Nephi's psalm.  As we finished, he was smiling.  He declared, well, you've whet my appetite.  He prayed yet again, and he was told "yes, read it."

Just as I was about to transfer out of the area, he said that he had prayed about the BoM as Moroni stated.  He said he got a very emphatic "Wait." Again, that was odd.  An EMPHATIC "wait" is kind of like a very enthusiastic "maybe."

Some time afterward, my companion from that area told me that he had agreed to be baptized.  Then I later found out that he had died before his baptism date.

 

I'd ask you to compare how you feel when reading The Acts vs The BoM.  I think you'll find it to be very similar.  Consider what you're expecting when you apply Moroni's promise.  

 

Now, I'll tell you my experience with Moroni's promise. I wrote this elsewhere, but I just don't feel like looking it up.

Just a few years ago, I was in a discussion with someone about Moroni's promise when they challenged me "when was the last time you prayed to know if the BoM was true?"

I had to stop for a moment.  I couldn't remember.  I remembered having done it.  But I couldn't remember when or where or the circumstance.  And I really couldn't even remember the experience itself.

So, I figured I'd just pray now... I got nothing...

I was stumped.  Everything I'd heard about the promise said I was doing everything right.  I obviously already believed.  I had full intention to continue in faith.  But I got nothing.  Puzzling...

But as I looked upon the scene, I realized that I hadn't gotten a "no."  I just hadn't gotten a "yes."  So, I continued.

Over the course of a month, I read through the BoM about three times.  And I was really spending time studying, cross-referencing, pondering, you name it.  And I continued to pray every night for confirmation.  Nothing...  Still not a no.  Not a yes.  Just nothing.

I gave up the intense study.  I went back to normal study mode which really should be better.  But, hey, I'm human.  I prayed everyday.

I don't remember how long it had been by the time something happened.  But I remember what happened to me.  I was really humbled by this experience.  I was feeling lost.  I wasn't simply asking for my beliefs to be confirmed. I was asking for Him to reach out to me to let me know I was worth communicating with.  I was a lost sheep.  Outside, I kept a stiff upper lip.  But inside, I wouldn't say I was "doubting" per se.  But I certainly didn't feel like I knew anything.

But then one night, I happened to be praying somewhere other than beside my bed.  And I heard the words of the Lord to Oliver Cowdery. "DidI not speak peace to your mind concerning the matter?"

... Uhmm...  I'm not sure what you're talking about... 

Then it happened.  I could say that I had a vision.  But it was more like a restored memory.  I tend to have very vivid memories of certain events.  But this is one I hadn't thought about since the day it happened.

My mind's eye was opened to the time that I had originally prayed about a year before my mission.  I wanted to have a strong testimony if I were to go tell the world that what I have is God's word.  I happened to be praying in a very similar setting (as far as furniture, time of day, etc.) as when I prayed that one night.  And in that prayer, I received a very slight feeling that was different than anything else I'd felt.  It was not overwhelming.  It was not powerful.  But it was just completely different.  It was kind of like how kim chi tasted when I had COVID (you get my point).  But it was oh so faint.  If I had not been so focused and completely alone, I would have missed it.

And as I pondered that scene from when I was young, I clearly saw it.  I then received an other confirmation.  The same "like nothing else" feeling.  But this time, it was much more powerful.  It was absolutely clear.  Even when I sat in darkness in my house, I felt light in my mind.

I really do know that the BoM is the word of God.  I know that despite all its weaknesses and the faults of mortal men who wrote it, the meaning and messages are the word of God.  And I gain more faith in Christ by reading its pages.

The most interesting part to me is that the barely noticeable impression from my youth was also a confirmation.  It was from the Lord.  And I have no idea why it was so weak.  Maybe He was blaring it loudly, and I was mostly deaf.  I have no idea.  But even as weak as it was, I felt it.  It was true.

[clbent04]

49 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Let’s try again.  Why is the most often quoted scripture (ancient text of Old Testament era) by New Testament authors (including claims of what Jesus said) – not included in the any modern version of the Bible. 

We might have to try a third time. What scripture are you referring to?

50 minutes ago, Traveler said:

If the books to be included in the Bible were not fabricated by men – why is there no revelation indicating what scripture books should be included in Bible scripture?

Who's to say there wasn't? Do you discredit the service from the men and women that went into preserving God's Bible to where it is available to us today because they didn't do so under the umbrella of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? The only way I've ever been able to validate revelation received by others is studying it out in my mind, prayer, meditation....

53 minutes ago, Traveler said:

In general, if you can believe there is nothing fabricated in the Bible – why do you believe the Book of Mormon was fabricated?

I seek truth and try my best here on Earth with the limited information I have just like everyone else. I have nothing concrete to go off of other than the feelings in my heart. I fully support anyone who says reading the Book of Mormon draws them closer to God. That just hasn't been my experience. The Book of Mormon has a lot of positive messages, but it just doesn't center me and my thoughts on the Savior the same way the New Testament does.

[clbent04]

1 hour ago, LDSGator said:

and you owe me a Pepsi bro! 

Lol deal. I think that's fair enough.

[LDSGator]

15 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

Lol deal. I think that's fair enough.

Uh, okay. Four Arizona Diamondbacks tickets. Suite. All food and drinks included. And, you have to invite @pam and @NeuroTypical. No @mirkwood, we have some standards.

 

😉

[pam]

Just now, LDSGator said:

Uh, okay. Four Arizona Diamondbacks tickets. Suite. All food and drinks included. And, you have to invite @pam and @NeuroTypical. No @mirkwood, we have some standards.

 

😉

Who in the heck would want to see the Diamondbacks?  Unless they are playing the Padres of course.  

[LDSGator]

7 minutes ago, pam said:

Who in the heck would want to see the Diamondbacks?  Unless they are playing the Padres of course.  

Okay…so we have an extra ticket. Any takers? 

[clbent04]

10 minutes ago, pam said:

Who in the heck would want to see the Diamondbacks?  Unless they are playing the Padres of course.  

@pam does it change your mind if I tell you we can all watch the game from a hot tub inside the stadium? Yes, the DB's have a hot tub behind right field. 

Edited April 13, 2023 by clbent04

[pam]

20 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

@pam does it change your mind if I tell you we can all watch the game from a hot tub inside the stadium? Yes, the DB's have a hot tub behind right field. 

Looks like a pretty obstructed view with people sitting there in the higher chairs along the fence.  I'll pass.  I'd rather sit over in left field behind the Padres dugout so I can drool over Fernando Tatis.      

 

[pam]

16 hours ago, clbent04 said:

FWIW, I will say from the perspective of someone on the fence about the Church, it's much more positive to have conversations with members who can sympathize how various viewpoints can exist in this world, and to not feel like someone is touting their sincerity and diligence in finding God's truth over your own.

That can be very frustrating and offensive.  This was one contributing factor that caused me to eventually lash out at @The Folk Prophet in the past and earn my permanent Scarlet Letter on Third Hour!

By the way, is this thing really permanent or does it ever go away?

But TFP and I are good now. After we hugged and made up, I can see the good in people like @The Folk Prophet who want to proudly hold up their banner of truth, and to some extent I see it as commendable even when it comes at the expense of stepping on the toes of those like me who have different life experiences and beliefs. 

I will say if the goal is to bring others unto Christ, and you believe the LDS Church to be the answer, a little sympathy and respectful communication goes a long ways. I've always tried to communicate respectfully on this forum with the exception of the few times I've been triggered by someone else's lack of respect for me or others.

I'm not really saying any of us this for my benefit and my intention is not to make anyone feel bad, just some honest perspective for what it's worth.

 

How much money do you have?     I can be easily bribed and not with Diamondback hot tub tickets.     

[NeuroTypical]

35 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

He further said that he tries to only do what the Lord tells him to do.  And when he asks, he gets one of three answers (Yes, No, Wait). 
...
He prayed yet again, and he was told "yes, read it."
...
He said he got a very emphatic "Wait." 
...
Some time afterward, my companion from that area told me that he had agreed to be baptized.  Then I later found out that he had died before his baptism date.

 

 

they challenged me "when was the last time you prayed to know if the BoM was true?" I had to stop for a moment.  I couldn't remember.  I remembered having done it.  But I couldn't remember when or where or the circumstance.  And I really couldn't even remember the experience itself. So, I figured I'd just pray now... I got nothing...

But then one night, I happened to be praying somewhere other than beside my bed.  And I heard the words of the Lord to Oliver Cowdery. "Did I not speak peace to your mind concerning the matter?"
...
And as I pondered that scene from when I was young, I clearly saw it.  I then received an other confirmation.  The same "like nothing else" feeling.  But this time, it was much more powerful.  It was absolutely clear.  Even when I sat in darkness in my house, I felt light in my mind.
...
The most interesting part to me is that the barely noticeable impression from my youth was also a confirmation.  It was from the Lord.  And I have no idea why it was so weak.  Maybe He was blaring it loudly, and I was mostly deaf.  I have no idea.  But even as weak as it was, I felt it.  It was true.

Some pretty amazing stuff right there, @Carborendum

When I was praying/studying/searching to know the truthfulness of the BoM, and received my unmistakable spiritual witness, my first thought was "oh my heck - I'm feeling the spirit - it's true!".  My immediate 2nd thought was "oh my heck - I've felt this before and totally missed the importance!"  A small handful of the lowest points of my life - miserable crippling self-doubt, totally convinced I'm an evil loser, trying to be caregiver for a dying parent, enduring my chronic pain with no effective treatment, all of it happening at once, and I'm sitting at the kitchen table trying to force college coursework into my brain so I can pass.  I had felt the same spiritual impression, but I totally missed what it was or meant.  I wrote it off as similar to the sensation of standing up too quickly and you feel dizzy.  This was in the middle of my inactive phase, I wasn't really looking for help or answers in faith/religion/church.

Back in the day, I really experienced the whole "walk daily with the spirit as your companion" life.  These days, I'll go long periods of time, even years, without any sort of spiritual impression.  I'm ok with that - I have my answer, and I'm running with it through this mortal life.  I take the silence to imply that I have whatever I need in me, to figure out whatever I'm struggling with.  Sometimes that rare impression will show up when I'm considering an issue and have no earthly clue what to do.  I take that to mean "this is important stuff, and you have what you need to figure it out".  

[clbent04]

9 minutes ago, pam said:

How much money do you have?     I can be easily bribed and not with Diamondback hot tub tickets.     

Would a cleanly pressed Mr. Lincoln pique your interest? I could also throw in a gift basket full of ice cold IBC cream sodas hand delivered by Fernando Tatis.

@LDSGator how close do you live by Pam and how good of an impression can you do of Fernando Tatis?

[LDSGator]

15 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

Would a cleanly pressed Mr. Lincoln pique your interest? I could also throw in a gift basket full of ice cold IBC cream sodas hand delivered by Fernando Tatis.

@LDSGator how close do you live by Pam and how good of an impression can you do of Fernando Tatis?

LMBO.

 

Due to the restraining order @pam has to stay 501 feet away from me. I’m unsure as to where her location is at this time. 

[clbent04]

11 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

Due to the restraining order @pam has to stay 501 feet away from me. I’m unsure as to where her location is at this time. 

Sounds like you were able to do the Fernando Tatis impersonation a little too well.

Edited April 13, 2023 by clbent04

[LDSGator]

30 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

Sounds like you were able to do the Fernando Tatis impersonation a little too well.

I love this place. Priceless bro. Priceless. 

[Vort]

2 hours ago, pam said:

Looks like a pretty obstructed view with people sitting there in the higher chairs along the fence.  I'll pass.  I'd rather sit over in left field behind the Padres dugout so I can drool over Fernando Tatis.      

 

What? Are you saying that you don't go to baseball games in order to sit in a hot tub?

[askandanswer]

On 4/13/2023 at 4:00 AM, clbent04 said:

I've read the Book of Mormon several times and Moroni's promise has never worked for me. When I read the Book of Mormon I often get a feeling it was fabricated. I get a different feeling when I read the Bible. I accept the Bible as containing true accounts that actually transpired

Has Christ’s promise in Matthew 7: 7-8 worked for you? Or Christ’s promise in Luke 11:2? Or the same promise, from the same Person, in Matthew 21:22, John 16: 23-24, John 15:7, John 14:13-14? Or the promise of James in James 1:5?

Is your faith in the Bible strong enough to apply these tests in relation to the Book of Mormon?

Have you tested your capacity to receive personal revelation by asking for and receiving knowledge and truth and guidance? Do you have clear and definite memories of praying for and receiving a confirmation of any spiritual truth? If you have tested your capacity to receive personal revelation, and in so doing, have received knowledge, light, truth and confirmation, do you know how/why it happened and how such experiences are similar to and different from your experiences with Moroni’s promise?

What are your thoughts/ideas/beliefs/speculations about why your hopes/expectations/desires about Christ's promise, recorded by Moroni, have not come to pass in a manner and at a time that you recognise/accept?

Have you grown and progressed by continuing to be active in the church despite not having had a spiritual confirmation of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon? In other words, have you experienced any spiritual benefits by dealing with, or overcoming this apparent obstacle? You well know that having a problem and learning to work with it and carry it is one of the more frequent methods of personal and spiritual growth. What benefits/growth have you received by not receiving or recognising or having a spiritual confirmation of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon?

Are you confident that James 4:3 does not apply?

Given the amount of evidence in support of the Book of Mormon, could you come to an intellectual acceptance that, on the balance of probabilities, it is more likely than not that the Book of Mormon is true? If so, would that intellectual acceptance meet some of those needs and desires that, generally speaking, are more fully met by a spiritual confirmation? Would an intellectual acceptance help to sustain your faith and help you to maintain your activity until you receive a spiritual acceptance?

How well have you investigated your thoughts that the Book of Mormon is contrived? I am unfamiliar with the arguments and data used by those who fight against the Book of Mormon and try to prove that it is untrue, and I will not look at any such data or arguments. But I have read, with only mild interest and curiosity, a few of the so-called “proofs” of the Book of Mormon, and some of them seem to be persuasive enough to at least give reason to consider that the Book of Mormon might be true. 

How would your life be different if you had, and acted according to, a spiritual witness of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, compared to how your life would be if you simply had a hope and desire to know that the Book of Mormon is true, or simply acted with the faith that one day you would know?

I’ll share with you a few sentences from a letter my older brother wrote to me more than 35 years ago, that I only found a few days ago. He wrote it as a former ward Young Single Adult representative, when I was newly called as a ward YSA representative, and as a returned missionary at the time I was preparing for my mission.

Not all of the scan is easy to read so I’ll re-write the main sentences at the last 5 lines of the letter:

“One of the (stake) reps said I should pray for a desire. I said I had. They then said I should pray for a desire for a desire. This was a new concept for me. They emphasised the point by that sometimes its necessary to pray for a desire for a desire for a desire! This is not nonsense. Sometimes I’ve had to do just that. It works. “

While working and waiting for a spiritual confirmation, perhaps you might also like to consider

Psalms 37: 1-11 https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/ot/ps/37?lang=eng

Isaiah 8:17 https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/ot/isa/8?lang=eng

All of Psalms 27, but especially verse 4

Isaiah 40: 1, 5, 11, 21, 31

 

 

Doc2.docx

Edited April 13, 2023 by askandanswer

[Still_Small_Voice]

On 4/12/2023 at 12:30 PM, clbent04 said:

• The three Kingdoms of Glory don't make sense to me and how an 80-year mortal existence would eternally slot any of us into one of the three.

From my understanding, the spirit world is also a preparatory state.  While in the spirit world we progress or suffer for unrepented sin.  Numerous spirits that have departed mortality have been in the spirit world for thousands of years.  These spirits are being prepared for their eventual resurrection where they will receive their glory.  This is a much longer time than our mortal existence that we only now presently see.

As the Apostle Paul wrote:  "For now we see through a glass, darkly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; but then shall I know . . ."  (I Corinthians 13 verse 12)

Edited April 13, 2023 by Still_Small_Voice

[mirkwood]

5 hours ago, LDSGator said:

Okay…so we have an extra ticket. Any takers? 

If they are playing KC I'll take the ticket.

[pam]

5 hours ago, LDSGator said:

LMBO.

 

Due to the restraining order @pam has to stay 501 feet away from me. I’m unsure as to where her location is at this time. 

Darn.  I forget about that.  That might ruin our plans to get together in September when I'm in So. Carolina for vacation.  

[LDSGator]

26 minutes ago, pam said:

Darn.  I forget about that.  That might ruin our plans to get together in September when I'm in So. Carolina for vacation.  

This all could have been avoided if you didn’t spend the last three years stalking me. 

[pam]

2 hours ago, LDSGator said:

This all could have been avoided if you didn’t spend the last three years stalking me. 

I was not stalking.  I was following.