Elder Oaks - three degrees of glory

[zil2]

20 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

It isn't (or shouldn't be) something "lesser" to take on a different career. Lawyer might be the "celestial" career, but terrestial (teacher, maybe?) or telestial (dcotor or trade) are also acceptable careers. The key is to choose which career you will be happiest in.

As I tried to explain earlier, what strikes me when Pres. Oaks (and others) describe this version of the 3 kingdoms is that they appear to line up horizontally (all kingdoms are equally desirable) rather than vertically (kingdoms ranked as most desirable to least desirable). The key is finding the kingdom where you will be happiest.

IMO, God himself refers to the other kingdoms as "lesser" and I don't think President Oaks' talk lines them up horizontally as if all are acceptable.  He simply acknowledges that not everyone will make the same choices or seek the same ends.  We tread on broken ice when we try to say they are all equally good.

[SilentOne]

I thought both Elder Oaks's and President Nelson's talks fit well into the whole of what I've been taught about the kingdoms of glory: everybody is eventually going to end up where they will be happiest. Where we will be happiest is determined by what we become while on this earth. And the people who are capable of being happiest in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom are the ones who are capable of the highest degree of happiness overall.

[NeuroTypical]

I just got around to watching the talk, as we were traveling on Sunday with no internet.  Although I didn't really see anything new in Oaks' comments, for some reason it helped me find some peace regarding my father.  My WWII vet, totally areligious, drinking/swearing/gambling father, who never seemed to go a day of his life without being mad and swearing about something (and mormons and the church were often his target).   My moral, often righteous father, who taught me most of the stuff I know about opposing injustice and standing for justice (although again, we sometimes disagreed about where they were found).  My proud, obstinate father who never bowed or knelt or submitted to anything or any one, and yet he was willing, without complaint, to wear the tux and stand in the reception line surrounded by mormons who had just come from my temple sealing.  My humerous and witty and cantankerous and irreverent father who, when I told him on his deathbed of my plans to get him sealed to all 3 of his wives and asked if there was any particular order he wanted me to do them in, replied "It doesn't matter, they're all in hell."  

I've been worried ever since he died.  When I did his temple work, I was unconsolable and full of doubt about whether it would "do any good".  But I finally got a little consolation.   Depending on the definition of "valiant", he's either in spirit prison or paradise.  Assuming I stay on the straight and narrow in this life, I'll either be able to teach him, or work with him.  And then, he'll end up going wherever he's the most comfortable, to spend the eternities where he wants to be.  He might spend them organizing poker games and griping sarcastically about how this place is run.   Or, he might choose exaltation and for all I know, and he'll occasionally need to come down and visit me.  Whatever the varied details, our loving Heavenly Father has pretty much ensured it'll be all right.  (I don't see either of us shooting for outer darkness, especially since the telestial has so much going for it.)  

I am consoled.  I'm finally at peace about his umpteen opportunities to learn about the gospel that he turned down in life.  Thanks Elder Oaks!

[Carborendum]

I believe it is a dangerous heresy that says that all the kingdoms of glory will make us happy because that is where we belong.

A cat is certainly happy being a cat.  A horse is happy being a horse.  A human is happy being a human (qualifiers).  Would a human be happy being a cat?  Some children nowadays want to be trans-species.  Heck, I've even heard reports of adults wanting that.  Are we really going to believe they will have lasting happiness believing they are a cat?

All creatures are made to "fulfill the measure of their creation."  I also believe that every single person was created to have the potential to become celestial.  But there's this thing called free agency which changes the course of our development.  And while one can make an argument that there is some peace and happiness in lower kingdoms (e.g. "it seems like too much work to be in the Celestial Kingdom.") there is always a lost opportunity which will eventually be felt throughout eternity.  They did not fulfill the measure of their creation.

Many adult-children are remaining children because they don't want the responsibility of adulthood.  They think they are avoiding stress and hard work and... Besides, their rich parents will pay for everything. They have a trust fund.

These children do not realize the joy that comes from a job well done.  There is joy in achieving something by your own efforts.  There is joy in learning and growing into something more than you once were. Even some with mental handicaps understand this principle.  But some fully able-bodied and able-minded individuals can't get this concept.  They'll never know what is available to them.

Are they happy?  In a manner of speaking, sure.  But we know that there is something better.  And as happy as they think they are, they're missing out.  And that is what causes the Lord to weep.  They could have had more.  But they were either duped into believing they could never achieve more, or that they're perfectly happy with less.  (I use the word "perfectly" in the gospel sense)

I will take Pres Nelson's advice an "Think Celestial."  I don't want to be a human who thinks he's only a cat or a horse for all eternity.  I don't want to be a man-child for all eternity.  I don't want to merely be satisfied or content or happy for all eternity.  I want to be "perfectly" happy.

Edited October 4, 2023 by Carborendum

[laronius]

I think that much of what Telestial minded people in this life seek for simply won't be available to them in the next life. Unrighteous physical pleasures and addictions, wealth, power, control, vanity, etc are likely not to have a place there. So in what do they find happiness? Even happiness derived from righteous sources like family relationships are limited. They may be comfortable in terms of what laws they must obey but I can't help thinking they will find that existence rather empty, unless they are able to change somehow. And maybe that's the point, change and repentance will be required to achieve any degree of happiness. Wickedness never was happiness, even in the Telestial Kingdom.

[Lumin8]

In my opinion, this life is not to determine what you like or what would make you happy, that was the first estate test when we had all the options before us. This life is to show what the true desires of our heart are despite being in a fallen state. It is to show how much we like those things, to what degree. 

I think a good metaphor would be the soldier in training who says they would never leave a fellow soldier behind but not everyone in the heat of the battle and in that confusing state would actually go back for their fellow soldier.  When one has a chance to reveal what takes priority over other things, that is when what really makes a person happy or not is revealed.  As Elder Bednar puts it, the true test of this life is to see if we follow the promptings and desires of the body or do we follow the desires of the spirit?  That is what President Nelson said in his talk that thinking Celestial means being spiritually minding. It is just another way of saying, are we spiritually minded or carnally minded.  What pulls at our heart the most?  God will interpret our actions with that in mind, what is our true desire of the heart. 

[pam]

31 minutes ago, Lumin8 said:

In my opinion, this life is not to determine what you like or what would make you happy, that was the first estate test when we had all the options before us. This life is to show what the true desires of our heart are despite being in a fallen state. It is to show how much we like those things, to what degree. 

I think a good metaphor would be the soldier in training who says they would never leave a fellow soldier behind but not everyone in the heat of the battle and in that confusing state would actually go back for their fellow soldier.  When one has a chance to reveal what takes priority over other things, that is when what really makes a person happy or not is revealed.  As Elder Bednar puts it, the true test of this life is to see if we follow the promptings and desires of the body or do we follow the desires of the spirit?  That is what President Nelson said in his talk that thinking Celestial means being spiritually minding. It is just another way of saying, are we spiritually minded or carnally minded.  What pulls at our heart the most?  God will interpret our actions with that in mind, what is our true desire of the heart. 

@Lumen8  I'm curious to know what part of San Diego you live in.  

[zil2]

Welcome, @Lumin8!

[Traveler]

19 hours ago, Lumin8 said:

In my opinion, this life is not to determine what you like or what would make you happy, that was the first estate test when we had all the options before us. This life is to show what the true desires of our heart are despite being in a fallen state. It is to show how much we like those things, to what degree. 

I think a good metaphor would be the soldier in training who says they would never leave a fellow soldier behind but not everyone in the heat of the battle and in that confusing state would actually go back for their fellow soldier.  When one has a chance to reveal what takes priority over other things, that is when what really makes a person happy or not is revealed.  As Elder Bednar puts it, the true test of this life is to see if we follow the promptings and desires of the body or do we follow the desires of the spirit?  That is what President Nelson said in his talk that thinking Celestial means being spiritually minding. It is just another way of saying, are we spiritually minded or carnally minded.  What pulls at our heart the most?  God will interpret our actions with that in mind, what is our true desire of the heart. 

Thank you for coming and posting.  I am of different opinion and so I hope to learn from you.  As a veteran of the Vietnam era – I know a little about leaving someone you care about behind.  In life it seems that we are often left with choices of leaving behind someone you care about because they choose a different path or because a different path overwhelms them.

I am somewhat conflicted about desires of the heart.  It seems that desires are more about the natural man than a Saint of G-d.  Yet I have discovered that no one will continue with a task that they do not enjoy doing even if it benefits them.  For example, unless someone learns to enjoy making their bed in the morning – they will eventually quit doing it.  The same applies to health and eating and exercising, and money and spending.  If we do not find joy in doing the right thing – we will quit doing the right thing and do what we enjoy better.

I am also of the mind that G-d has no desire to interpret our actions or our mind – that he gave us agency and when the time comes, we will choose, by the use of our agency, what we are and will be.  G-d is not to blame – rather G-d is to be thanked and worshiped for giving us agency.

 

The Traveler

[Still_Small_Voice]

On 10/3/2023 at 10:52 AM, NeuroTypical said:

My humorous and witty and cantankerous and irreverent father who, when I told him on his deathbed of my plans to get him sealed to all 3 of his wives and asked if there was any particular order he wanted me to do them in, replied: "It doesn't matter, they're all in hell."

I found this story amusing.  Thanks for sharing it.

[Jedi_Nephite]

On 10/3/2023 at 12:52 PM, NeuroTypical said:

 My humerous and witty and cantankerous and irreverent father who, when I told him on his deathbed of my plans to get him sealed to all 3 of his wives and asked if there was any particular order he wanted me to do them in, replied "It doesn't matter, they're all in hell."

About a week before my father passed away from melanoma, he was in hospice care at home.  My oldest brother asked him if he had any pearls of wisdom to pass on before he died.  His simple response was, “Yeah.  Stay out of the sun.”

[mrmarklin]

Jacob 6

10 And according to the power of ^ajustice, for justice cannot be denied, ye must go away into that ^blake of fire and brimstone, whose flames are unquenchable, and whose smoke ascendeth up forever and ever, which lake of fire and brimstone is ^cendless ^dtorment.

 

Forget degrees of Glory.  Does any thinking LDS believe for a moment that anything less than attaining the Celestial Kingdom, for all practical purposes, ends up anything unlike what is described in the Scriptures.  Temperature has degrees..............:-)

 

Endless torment.

[laronius]

16 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

Jacob 6

10 And according to the power of ^ajustice, for justice cannot be denied, ye must go away into that ^blake of fire and brimstone, whose flames are unquenchable, and whose smoke ascendeth up forever and ever, which lake of fire and brimstone is ^cendless ^dtorment.

 

Forget degrees of Glory.  Does any thinking LDS believe for a moment that anything less than attaining the Celestial Kingdom, for all practical purposes, ends up anything unlike what is described in the Scriptures.  Temperature has degrees..............:-)

 

Endless torment.

My initial take on that verse, without looking at it's context, is that it's referring to hell in spirit prison, so prior to the attainment of a degree of glory. But I do think you make a good point in that not all suffering is the same. Those in hell will likely suffer to varying degrees based on their wickedness.

[mrmarklin]

The reality is that all LDS that I know, regard anything less than attaining the Celestial Kingdom is the functional equivalent of hell or damnation.  So degrees of "glory" become very academic.

[JohnsonJones]

2 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

The reality is that all LDS that I know, regard anything less than attaining the Celestial Kingdom is the functional equivalent of hell or damnation.  So degrees of "glory" become very academic.

I don't view it that way.  I know some that do, but I do not.

I view anything that is in the Kingdom of Heaven as one of the Glories of Heaven.  It is not a Hell, it is a glory.

[person0]

6 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

The reality is that all LDS that I know, regard anything less than attaining the Celestial Kingdom is the functional equivalent of hell or damnation.

Just damnation.  Not the same as hell.

Quote

The state of being stopped in one’s progress and denied access to the presence of God and His glory. Damnation exists in varying degrees. All who do not obtain the fulness of celestial exaltation will to some degree be limited in their progress and privileges, and they will be damned to that extent. (Guide to the Scriptures - Damnation)

 

4 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

I don't view it that way.  I know some that do, but I do not.

I view anything that is in the Kingdom of Heaven as one of the Glories of Heaven.  It is not a Hell, it is a glory.

It isn't hell, but it is damnation.

[JohnsonJones]

9 hours ago, person0 said:

Just damnation.  Not the same as hell.

 

It isn't hell, but it is damnation.

Is it?

The traditional definition of Damnation is eternal punishment in Hell.  I don't see the three degrees of glory as doing that.

If you tone it down to merely being torture and punishment in the afterlife...I still don't feel the three degrees are torture and punishment.

They are a reward.  It shows the great mercy and love of our Father and the Savior that even those worthy of a Telestial Glory are given such.  It is not a punishment nor is it torture, it is a glory of heaven given to those as an eternal reward.

I know those who claim that if they don't get the Celestial Kingdom they will regret it or be sad...but how do we know that?

My feeling is that we basically will go where we choose to go.  Those that do not want to go to the Celestial Kingdom will choose not to because they would be uncomfortable if they were there.  It would be torture for them to be there and they will realize it.  So they will go to a place where they will be most comfortable and happy instead.

In a like manner, the only ones that do not get to a glory of heaven are those who reject it. They will NOT accept the atonement and thus by their own choice choose to go to outer Darkness. 

[person0]

12 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

The traditional definition of Damnation is eternal punishment in Hell.

Among other things, the traditional definition (if that's an accurate description) is wrong.  Hence, the Restoration.  I hope to respond to your other statements later, but I'm heading out the door.

 

[Traveler]

We are told in scripture that Satan (Lucifer) is miserable.   We are also warned not to follow Satan and become miserable like him.  The problem is that there is a notion that wicked things are a lot more fun or desirable with a caveat – the caveat is that righteous things are desirable in the long run (or eternity) and wicked things are only desirable in the short term.

The purpose of this particular post is an attempt to alter thinking.  Rather than thinking in long term verses short term I would introduce what I believe to be a much more logical and reasonable approach to why someone is miserable.  It is the concept of conflicting desires.  And that it is because of conflicting desires that we become miserable.

To illustrate how conflicting desires make us miserable, I will provide an example.  Most people I know desire a strong healthy, well-toned, sexy looking body.  But a lot of these same people also desire to eat fattening foods and live a lazy sedate lifestyle.  Since their desires are conflicting the only possible result is that they will be miserable.  Either they will have a fat, obese out of shape body (that makes them miserable) or they will have to force themselves to eat a diet that they dislike and exercise which results in them being miserable.

I have discovered that there are many carnal things that are enjoyable.  I also believe that there are eternal joys that come from having a physical body.  The only way to avoid becoming miserable is through the principle of discipline – which is a spiritual attribute.

A few more thoughts – obviously a telestial or terrestrial person (a person that lives according to telestial or terrestrial options, laws and circumstances) will be miserable regardless of single desire to be in some other glory, because of lack of discipline, their desires are conflicting desires.  I believe the reason that anyone is miserable is because of the lack ofspiritual understanding of discipline.

The greatest principle of G-d in his plan of salvation is agency.  G-d does not determine what kingdom of glory we have in the resurrection or even if we end up in outer darkness.  That is the result of our agency.  Not our desires – our agency determines our destiny.  If we exercise our agency without spiritual discipline, the only possible result is that we will be miserable.  As I understand those that exercise their agency with spiritual discipline are (perhaps by definition) Celestial.

Let us not blame G-d for how we exercise our agency.  Do not blame him for where we end up or why we are miserable.

 

The Traveler

Edited October 30, 2023 by Traveler

[NeuroTypical]

On 10/27/2023 at 3:01 PM, mrmarklin said:

The reality is that all LDS that I know, regard anything less than attaining the Celestial Kingdom is the functional equivalent of hell or damnation.  

Maybe it comes down to definitions, but I also don't regard anything less than attaining the Celectial Kingdom as the functional equivalent of hell...

I'm not immediately turned off by the notion of receiving of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.  I like the moon.  I know and love literally hundreds of people who appear to be honorable people who seemed to be blinded by the craftiness of men.  And hundreds more LDS folk who don't appear to be valiant in the testimony of Jesus.  

I mean, yes, it's incredibly appealing to be able to continue eternally in family relationships.  That's what I'm shooting for.  But it's not like I consider the next step down to be hell...

Edited October 30, 2023 by NeuroTypical

[laronius]

On 10/28/2023 at 6:59 AM, JohnsonJones said:

Is it?

The traditional definition of Damnation is eternal punishment in Hell.  I don't see the three degrees of glory as doing that.

If you tone it down to merely being torture and punishment in the afterlife...I still don't feel the three degrees are torture and punishment.

They are a reward.  It shows the great mercy and love of our Father and the Savior that even those worthy of a Telestial Glory are given such.  It is not a punishment nor is it torture, it is a glory of heaven given to those as an eternal reward.

I know those who claim that if they don't get the Celestial Kingdom they will regret it or be sad...but how do we know that?

My feeling is that we basically will go where we choose to go.  Those that do not want to go to the Celestial Kingdom will choose not to because they would be uncomfortable if they were there.  It would be torture for them to be there and they will realize it.  So they will go to a place where they will be most comfortable and happy instead.

In a like manner, the only ones that do not get to a glory of heaven are those who reject it. They will NOT accept the atonement and thus by their own choice choose to go to outer Darkness. 

In the restored gospel hell, at least in the context we are speaking here, is that place those in spirit prison find themselves between death and the resurrection/judgement. Once they have sufficiently suffered for their sins they are released from hell and will inherit a kingdom of glory.

Damnation on the other is a state consisting of anything less than eternal progression. So anything less than exaltation means there is a limit on ones progression, a damning, just like on a river. They are no longer in hell and receive a kingdom of glory but they are forever limited in their progression. 

I doubt other Christian churches make a distinction between these terms but to us they are different.