The "Only true and living church" vs "The most correct of any church".

[prisonchaplain]

@Traveler is clear and looks towards logical conclusions. I appreciate the frankness. It's much more useful than the inclination of many (perhaps even me sometimes) to minimize differences. My sense is that if the doctrine of glorification is true then it's a teaching that should be meditated on deeply. I'm not there because I'm not a member and don't have that testimony. However, the belief that we can become as God is, is either a powerful truth or a deal breaker. Perhaps there should be a prayer much like the, "Is the church true" one, asking, "Can I really become as God is?" 

[Vort]

7 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

@Traveler is clear and looks towards logical conclusions. I appreciate the frankness. It's much more useful than the inclination of many (perhaps even me sometimes) to minimize differences. My sense is that if the doctrine of glorification is true then it's a teaching that should be meditated on deeply. I'm not there because I'm not a member and don't have that testimony. However, the belief that we can become as God is, is either a powerful truth or a deal breaker. Perhaps there should be a prayer much like the, "Is the church true" one, asking, "Can I really become as God is?" 

I would suggest that whether one believes that men can or should become as God is is to some extent a sematic matter. I mean, in at least one sense, I think no Bible believer can possibly argue against the idea that we are commanded to become as God is. Matthew 5:48 reads (KJV), "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father who is in heaven is perfect." I do not see how this can possibly be interpreted in any other way except that we are to become perfect as God Himself is perfect. Plain meaning of words and all that.

[Traveler]

9 hours ago, Vort said:

I would suggest that whether one believes that men can or should become as God is is to some extent a sematic matter. I mean, in at least one sense, I think no Bible believer can possibly argue against the idea that we are commanded to become as God is. Matthew 5:48 reads (KJV), "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father who is in heaven is perfect." I do not see how this can possibly be interpreted in any other way except that we are to become perfect as God Himself is perfect. Plain meaning of words and all that.

I could argue that the concept of man becoming divine in the image and likeness (including becoming an heir of all G-d’s glory that Lucifer sought after to become G-d) is the intent of G-d’s plan and His intent for mankind.  For me this goes even beyond scripture into science; that the more we learn about this earth and the universe the more it becomes obvious that the only limitation of man (as a species) – is the limitation (corruption???) we put on ourselves.  At the center of all this is Jesus Christ and the doctrine that he was born of Marry and lived among humanity as one of us.  Or as the couplet – As man is, G-d (Jesus) once was and as G-d (Jesus) now is, man may become.  The proof of this, and the example of this, I believe is Jesus Christ and what he taught both in the words he spoke and the example he set and, in his admonishment to come, follow Him.

It is not for me to convince anyone.  They must find this out for themselves.  In all honesty, I am not so concerned with @prisonchaplain  and many others.  Temples are built and the millennium has a purpose.  I believe in agency and in order for agency to have a purpose, I believe that G-d will ensure that each individual has all the information, knowledge, circumstance, opportunity and understanding necessary (including all the powers of the atonement) to determine their eternal destiny.   I am willing to be of some service as I am able and yet flawed and in need of many things myself – therefore unworthy to judge anyone.  Prisonchaplen has taught me a great many things and I am better for having known and conversed with him.  I fully suspect that he will receive from G-d all that will be offered and given to him.

 

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

Certainly, the doctrine that we should be perfect is a corrective to the Prosperity Gospel--the idea that God wants us healthy, wealthy, and wise, today--now. It reminds us that our purpose is to grow in godliness--not to wallow in the squalor (no matter how fancy) of this world. Traditionalists may argue that LDS take the teaching too far, but there is no doubt that we traditionalists have not taken the instruction far enough. 

[mikbone]

Be Ye Therefore Perfect—Eventually

Jeffrey R. Holland

[Carborendum]

14 hours ago, mikbone said:

Be Ye Therefore Perfect—Eventually

Jeffrey R. Holland

I'm kind of saddened by the fact that the "eventually" was even required.  The American vocabulary is disappointing.

The origin of the word "perfect" meant "completed" or literally 

• per = complete
• fect = do/done

So, since we aren't done with this life, and we are not at our final destination, of course we're not completed; of course we're not done.  But our hope is to eventually get there.

[mikbone]

4 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I'm kind of saddened by the fact that the "eventually" was even required.  The American vocabulary is disappointing.

Oh, I loved the talk and the needed instruction to avoid toxic perfection.  

As well as the explanation that we will have a long, long, LONG way to go in the eternities to perfecting ourselves with Jesus help.

[Traveler]

I completely agree with your analytics.   There is a problem because the meaning and use of words evolve and in the mind of most that grow up using the English term perfect think only in the extended meaning of being completely flawless – without any weakness or error, ever – past present or future.  This creates quite a conundrum for many Christians that have English as their first language and only relate to the English translation of the Bible.  Many Christians believe G-d is a being that by definition has never had to deal with personal flaws we mortals experience in our fallen state.  Because we are flawed, have weaknesses and obviously plagued with errors – It is considered blasphemy to think it possible to be perfect, especially as G-d is perfect.  Regardless of if we covenant with G-d or not, or even what is possible for G-d to do concerning us; the meaning of perfect has evolved to such a hard-set meaning, it is just not possible for man to be perfected – ever.  We may be able to repent and be forgiven of our sins – but a perfect being?  That will never happen in the mind of many.

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

49 minutes ago, mikbone said:

Oh, I loved the talk and the needed instruction to avoid toxic perfection.  

As well as the explanation that we will have a long, long, LONG way to go in the eternities to perfecting ourselves with Jesus help.

It is my impression that the Christian thought (outside of LSD theology) it is sort of a mathematical thing – like asymptotically approaching perfection.  We can get closer and closer (infinitely close) but never in all eternity actually reaching G-d’s perfection.

 

The Traveler

[mikbone]

36 minutes ago, Traveler said:

It is my impression that the Christian thought (outside of LSD theology) it is sort of a mathematical thing – like asymptotically approaching perfection.  We can get closer and closer (infinitely close) but never in all eternity actually reaching G-d’s perfection.

 

The Traveler

We LDS actually believe the same because God and Jesus are continuing to progress (grow in glory at the very least).  And, we are forever indebted to them.

The best we can hope for is to eventually become a profitable servant.

"As man now is, God once was:

As God now is, man may become."

The Lorenzo Snow couplet is a static not dynamic statement.  We might eventually get to where God is now.  But we will never equal or exceed him.

 

Edited May 2, 2024 by mikbone

[Carborendum]

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

I completely agree with your analytics.   There is a problem because the meaning and use of words evolve.

I agree.  Language does evolve.

But the meaning of perfect to mean "thorough or complete" is still found in dictionaries today (c.f. definition #6).

No one bothers to look.  No one seems to care.

I guess it is too much to ask of someone who is not as much of a logophile as I am.  But it would make longer explanations less frequently required.

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, mikbone said:

We LDS actually believe the same because God and Jesus are continuing to progress (grow in glory at the very least).  And, we are forever indebted to them.

The best we can hope for is to eventually become a profitable servant.

"As man now is, God once was:

As God now is, man may become."

The Lorenzo Snow couplet is a static not dynamic statement.  We might eventually get to where God is now.  But we will never equal or exceed him.

 

I have decided to give my impression why becoming a g-d is a “Doctrine of Christ”.  In distinguishing this as a doctrine of Christ is rather bold because – by definition those that disbelieve in any of the “Doctrines of Christ” are aligned with the “anti-Christ”.  That is a rather harsh term.

In the 10th chapter of the Gospel of John, Jesus is in Jerusalem for the feast of the dedication.  This is currently what is called Hanukkah, which is the celebration of the rededication of the temple in Jerusalem that was built when the Jews returned following the Babylonian captivity.   Jesus is at Soloman’s porch which is on the east side of the temple (opposite from the west wall where Jews currently come).  It would seem that certain Jews did not like Jesus very much already and they are looking to make an example as to why no one ought to listen to him.  Perhaps they were also looking for a reason to put Jesus to death.  One could ask, for what reason or excuse did the Jews have Jesus crucified.  Jesus is asked to plainly tell everybody at the temple of G-d, if he is the Christ – if he is the Messiah of prophesy that many Jews expected to deliver them from the Romans.  Verse 24:

Quote

24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.

I personally believe that the stage is now set for Jesus to teach directly concerning the doctrines of Christ.  Verse 30 is a direct answer giving a specific point of doctrine of Christ, perhaps not expected by the Jews, as to who and what the Christ is in verse 30:

Quote

30 I and my Father are one.

What could this possibly mean?  Jesus was speaking directly to the Jews, and it ticked them off – so much so they determined to kill Jesus.   The question we need to ask is why did they determine to kill Jesus:  Look at verse 31:

Quote

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

Jesus cautions the Jews to consider why?  What is that they object to?  In verse 32 Jesus teaches directly what Christ would do to demonstrate to the Jews what Christ does.  Verse 32:

Quote

32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

A prime reason that the Jews were involved in the crucifixion of Jesus comes out in the next verse and relates directly back to verse 30 for the proof of it.  Verse 33:

Quote

33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

What just happened was not just a point of doctrine to the Jews at the time.  This is a critical notion and an important Doctrine of Christ the be recorded and handed down to all generations.  There are two points to this Doctrine.  First that the Messiah (Christ) is a man ordained by G-d and sent to be born such and do marvelous works.  The second Doctrine of Christ is that man can be one with the Father.  This oneness means that man can become a g-d.  Note that Jesus does not tell the Jews that their interpretation of being one with G-d does not make someone a g-d but rather he affirms that is exactly the doctrine.  He then proves the doctrine by quoting Old Testament scripture in verses 34 – 35:

Quote

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

I cannot say if being "One" with G-d means we are equal or not equal.  Does being one mean being equal?  Is there something more needed to be equal?  I do not know how to answer that.  However, I would say that to be one with G-d is a Doctrine of Christ that the anti-Christ opposed anciently and will continue to do so, especially in the last-days - See John 17:21

 

The Traveler

[Vort]

13 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

But the meaning of perfect to mean "thorough or complete" is still found in dictionaries today (c.f. definition #6).

No one bothers to look.  No one seems to care.

That meaning survives intact and preeminent in linguistics, e.g. "present perfect".

[laronius]

I think part of the issue is that many Christians understanding of the character and nature of God has become corrupted since Jesus walked the earth. Many believe in an unfathomable God, one that can't be comprehended. So when you tell them we can become like Him it makes no sense to them. 

[Little Nipper]

On 5/2/2024 at 7:47 PM, laronius said:

I think part of the issue is that many Christians understanding of the character and nature of God has become corrupted since Jesus walked the earth. Many believe in an unfathomable God, one that can't be comprehended. So when you tell them we can become like Him it makes no sense to them. 

Where does it say in the Bible that we can become like GOD.  It is possible to be conformed to the image of CHRIST, but the reality is that Satan wanted to become like the most high and even tried to convince Adam and Eve that GOD was withholding information from them so that they could become like GOD.  That didn't go well for him (nor them).  I am firm in my belief that GOD will always and forever know infinitely more than anyone else because HE is the CREATOR and we are but HIS created creatures.  That is the only possible with regards to an all omnipotent GOD.  There are no other GODS --- there is but one and GOD is triune (an eternal loving being between the FATHER, SON, and HOLY SPIRIT.

Edited June 29, 2024 by Little Nipper

[laronius]

39 minutes ago, Little Nipper said:

Where does it say in the Bible that we can become like GOD.  It is possible to be conformed to the image of CHRIST, but the reality is that Satan wanted to become like the most high and even tried to convince Adam and Eve that GOD was withholding information from them so that they could become like GOD.  That didn't go well for him (nor them).  I am firm in my belief that GOD will always and forever know infinitely more than anyone else because HE is the CREATOR and we are but HIS created creatures.  That is the only possible with regards to an all omnipotent GOD.  There are no other GODS --- there is but one and GOD is triune (an eternal loving being between the FATHER, SON, and HOLY SPIRIT.

First of all, you are posting on a forum of individuals who believe in continuing revelation, so our understanding of God is not limited to the Bible. Yet there are hints in the Bible which I can provide. But first, so I understand your belief better, how do you differentiate between being conformed to the image of Christ and our belief that we can actually become like Him? How does the first fall short of the latter? That will help me focus my remarks better.

[Little Nipper]

29 minutes ago, laronius said:

First of all, you are posting on a forum of individuals who believe in continuing revelation, so our understanding of God is not limited to the Bible. Yet there are hints in the Bible which I can provide. But first, so I understand your belief better, how do you differentiate between being conformed to the image of Christ and our belief that we can actually become like Him? How does the first fall short of the latter? That will help me focus my remarks better.

Well, I do not believe that I will be able to create living things. I do believe that we are endowed with the ability to design and think out rationally.  I believe GOD has always existed and will always exist.  And while I do believe GOD created man to live eternally, I do not believe that any of us has always existed nor are humans related by birth to GOD (though we can become adopted children of GOD). I also note that a believer can become CHRIST like in HIS image; however. being like CHRIST and actually becoming as HIM are entirely two different things.  Note the following verses: 

• 2 Corinthians 3:18: "We are being transformed into [Christ's] likeness"
• Romans 8:29: "God predestined [all believers] to be conformed to the likeness of his Son"
• 1 John 3:2: "When he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is"
• Ephesians 4:22-24: "Take on an entirely new way of life – a God-fashioned life, a life renewed from the inside and working itself into your conduct as God accurately reproduces His character in you"
• Philippians 2:5: "In your lives you must think and act like Christ Jesus"

This informs me that our behavior will reflect that of JESUS CHRIST and yet it would appear that CHRIST took on a human form and identity in order to save that which was lost.  In doing so CHRIST emptied HIMSELF and HE took on the character of a servant.  Note: that JESUS while GOD prays to the FATHER and eventually had to leave so the the HOLY SPIRIT could come to reside within the heart/soul of those who have come to place their faith in GOD through CHRIST for their salvation and eternal security.  I firmly believe the Bible (Old & New Testament) is the revelation of CHRIST and that any additional "revelation" will not occur until the lost have been judged and GOD has created a NEW heaven and NEW earth.  Aside from that the thing we need to be concerned with is reaching the lost with the GOOD NEWS which is the death, burial, and resurrection of JESUS CHRIST for our salvation.

I maybe skating on thin ice when I say that the Bible clearly states that any prophet that has made ANY predictions that are false, that that individual is a false prophet. A prime example:  

Ezekiel 13:9

My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and utter lying divinations. They will not belong to the council of my people or be listed in the records of Israel, nor will they enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Sovereign LORD.

Deuteronomy 18:22

 

When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously; thou shalt not be afraid of him.

[zil2]

3 hours ago, Little Nipper said:

Where does it say in the Bible that we can become like GOD.  It is possible to be conformed to the image of CHRIST, but the reality is that Satan wanted to become like the most high and even tried to convince Adam and Eve that GOD was withholding information from them so that they could become like GOD.  That didn't go well for him (nor them).  I am firm in my belief that GOD will always and forever know infinitely more than anyone else because HE is the CREATOR and we are but HIS created creatures.  That is the only possible with regards to an all omnipotent GOD.  There are no other GODS --- there is but one and GOD is triune (an eternal loving being between the FATHER, SON, and HOLY SPIRIT.

I'm going to let @laronius take the lead on your main question and make a point or two:

• I emphasize what @laronius said: We believe in more than the Bible, ergo we are not limited to the Bible in explaining the source of our beliefs.
• Our belief in other scripture and on-going revelation gives us a different understanding of the meaning of some Biblical scripture.  (This means in part that we may present a Bible scripture in support of our beliefs and you will most likely say, "No, that means [something else]."  Which is one reason I tend to not bother - it gets old fast because there's rarely a discussion or demonstration of a desire to understand, only a knee-jerk, "No, you're interpreting that wrong".)
• If your desire is to argue that LDS beliefs are wrong, or to convince the forum members that it is, or to convert LDS forum members away from our beliefs, you've come to the wrong place.  Those here are strong in their faith and aren't going to be swayed by your arguments.  You will quickly get frustrated and interaction will stop.
• If your desire is to understand and be understood, you will have more useful discussions if your questions are framed as, "Why do you believe ...?" rather than "Defend your beliefs using only my belief system!" (aka "Where does it say in the Bible that ...?")  @prisonchaplain, an evangelical pastor who has been a moderator here for ages (though less active recently), is a great example of how someone firm in a different set of beliefs can interact in a friendly manner with LDS - I've even seen him correctly explain to others what we LDS believe.   (And I've watched his YouTube Sunday School lessons wherein he (a time or two) finds fault with LDS belief, so no one need assume he's come over to / been corrupted by the dark side...)

Wishing you all the best and hope the discussion is helpful!

Edited June 29, 2024 by zil2

[mikbone]

1 hour ago, Little Nipper said:

Well, I do not believe that I will be able to create living things. I do believe that we are endowed with the ability to design and think out rationally.  I believe GOD has always existed and will always exist.  And while I do believe GOD created man to live eternally, I do not believe that any of us has always existed nor are humans related by birth to GOD (though we can become adopted children of GOD). I also note that a believer can become CHRIST like in HIS image; however. being like CHRIST and actually becoming as HIM are entirely two different things.  Note the following verses: 

Well you are laser focused on an esoteric teaching of the LDS doctrine.  

We are not trying to become Jesus Christ.  Here in this life, we are just trying to follow his gospel.  We learn of Him and His Father so we can have a correct understanding of His attributes. 

We seek after all truth and cherish the Book of Mormon because it clarifies many points of His doctrine.

Just because we may have more truth does not mean that we are more righteous than those of other faiths.

[Little Nipper]

I will not pursue this topic.  However, I will say that I never get tired of talking about my faith/beliefs and attempting to support them with whomever would like to talk to me.  It's just part and parcel of being a child of GOD.  Historically, I see plenty of problems with Mr. Joseph Smith that would convince me that he was seeking to make a name for himself and nothing more.  And the Book of Abraham has been evaluated by experts and isn't regarded as an honest translation of the now rediscovered Egyptian texts.  This should totally undermine anyone trusting Mr. Smith's "godly" intention.  My faith is in CHRIST alone and not in interesting various books nor questionable prophets.  I've read and studied the Book of Mormon  --- twice. And I find it much like reading BEN HUR, THE LAST DAYS OF POMPEII, and QUO VADUS but not as well written...  However, the previous are not regarded by anyone I know of as additional Bible text.  They are novels, and no matter the intent of the authors, cannot be regarded as inspired.

All this said, I feel biblically comfortable in promoting that the CHURCH is the body of ALL believers in CHRIST JESUS, as the only means of salvation.  AND that no organization affiliation is necessary to accomplish this.  That doesn't mean that believers shouldn't hang together, but one need not be a Roman Catholic, a Methodist, a Pentecostal, a Baptist, etc., to somehow acquire necessary points with GOD. 

 

Edited June 29, 2024 by Little Nipper

[LDSGator]

35 minutes ago, Little Nipper said:

I will not pursue this topic.  However, I will say that I never get tired of talking about my faith/beliefs and attempting to support them with whomever would like to talk to me.  It's just part and parcel of being a child of GOD.  Historically, I see plenty of problems with Mr. Joseph Smith that would convince me that he was seeking to make a name for himself and nothing more.  And the Book of Abraham has been evaluated by experts and isn't regarded as an honest translation of the now rediscovered Egyptian texts.  This should totally undermine anyone trusting Mr. Smith's "godly" intention.  My faith is in CHRIST alone and not in interesting various books nor questionable prophets.  I've read and studied the Book of Mormon  --- twice. And I find it much like reading BEN HUR, THE LAST DAYS OF POMPEII, and QUO VADUS but not as well written...  However, the previous are not regarded by anyone I know of as additional Bible text.  They are novels, and no matter the intent of the authors, cannot be regarded as inspired.

All this said, I feel biblically comfortable in promoting that the CHURCH is the body of ALL believers in CHRIST JESUS, as the only means of salvation.  AND that no organization affiliation is necessary to accomplish this.  That doesn't mean that believers shouldn't hang together, but one need not be a Roman Catholic, a Methodist, a Pentecostal, a Baptist, etc., to somehow acquire necessary points with GOD. 

 

99% of LDS here are too nice to say anything, but I’m an egomaniac and a jerk, so I’ll say it. 

You aren’t saying anything we haven’t heard before, and won’t hear again. So if you think you’ll shatter our faith or that you are telling us these things that we’ve never heard before, you are wrong. You are also 35 years late to the party. 

People of all faith are welcome here, but walking into an LDS forum and saying what you just did is asinine. 

Edited June 29, 2024 by LDSGator

[Ironhold]

On 2/8/2024 at 4:18 PM, CommanderSouth said:

In one breath you aren't wrong.  It's a way of grappling with thornier, less clear cut, issues of church history. The priesthood ban, current LGBT concerns, polygamy, and so on.  Could every single one of these be wholly of the lord and there really isn't any confusion?   Sure.  I am wholly open to that approach.  But I also see how, especially in the realm of LGBT issues, just handlining and saying "God has spoken, pound sand" is very possibly true, but can drive someone away unnecessarily.  We can share the truth we have; we can be honest about things.  But bedside manner counts.  The doctor that curtly tells me that if I too much more pizza I will die and it is totally my fault, may be right.  The thing is though, it's repellant, and will drive me away.  Furthermore, we have revelation BECAUSE of the many important things to be revealed about the kingdom.  The word of wisdom came from Emma pushing Joseph about tobacco clean up.  We've seen stances change, in hindsight, it's always easier to see.  Even Elder McConkie had to straight up say that we had less light with regards to the priesthood.  If we were wrong, the problem is ours, disregard.  

 

Point of note - 

The very first edition of "Mormon Doctrine" was actually McConkie's pet project and had no oversight from the church. Because of this, much of what went in there was his personal theology and understanding rather than official church instruction. Suffice to say that the church leadership was displeased when they discovered how often that edition was at odds with the official instruction, which is why so many editions of the book have been issued over the years as McConkie was forced to correct it and why it will never be more than quasi-canonical despite the final editions being so often cited. 

[Ironhold]

5 hours ago, Little Nipper said:

Where does it say in the Bible that we can become like GOD.  It is possible to be conformed to the image of CHRIST, but the reality is that Satan wanted to become like the most high and even tried to convince Adam and Eve that GOD was withholding information from them so that they could become like GOD.  That didn't go well for him (nor them).  I am firm in my belief that GOD will always and forever know infinitely more than anyone else because HE is the CREATOR and we are but HIS created creatures.  That is the only possible with regards to an all omnipotent GOD.  There are no other GODS --- there is but one and GOD is triune (an eternal loving being between the FATHER, SON, and HOLY SPIRIT.

Tell me - what is your interpretation then of Matthew 5:48? 

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Also, what of Psalms 82:6?

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

After all, that was important enough for Jesus to refer back to it in John 10:34 - 

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

No, I'm not trying to challenge you. Rather, I want you to think about what is being said, what it means, and how it relates to our theology. As it is, if you haven't read the Bible cover-to-cover yet, I'd suggest doing so as time permits. Maybe even keep a pencil handy to make notes as you go.

Edited June 29, 2024 by Ironhold

[Little Nipper]

25 minutes ago, mikbone said:

We don’t appreciate your website as any source of doctrine.

We use the scriptures and the words of our modern prophets and apostles as our authoritative doctrine.

Here is what the Bible has to say 2 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

times to take a stand in Ephesians 6:11-17

Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

 

Edited June 29, 2024 by Little Nipper

[NeuroTypical]

4 hours ago, Little Nipper said:

Historically, I see plenty of problems with Mr. Joseph Smith

Dude, like everyone else here, you agreed to abide by the forum rules in order to have an account.  Is there a place in the Bible that says it's ok to agree to rules, and then break them?

  

Edited June 29, 2024 by NeuroTypical