“I think Nephi made a mistake”

[mikbone]

I have been enjoying Grant Hardy’s perspective and particularly his academic work -

When I listened to the following conversation, start @ 38:30 for the meat of the discussion, he relates that Nephi was struggling with discrimination and racism.  Initially after hearing the comments I was taken aback.  But after having some time to reflect, I think he is correct.

I also listened to this podcast 

And then from his advice purchased the following 

It is a Hebrew and English study with extensive commentary on the Torah from the conservative Jewish point of view (1500+ pages).  It is wonderful.  In the first 15 pages of material I already see that Joseph Smith was influenced by jewish tradition / studies.  

The book reads from right to left and showed up from Amazon on the same day I ordered it.  A miracle.

[Suzie]

1 hour ago, mikbone said:

I have been enjoying Grant Hardy’s perspective and particularly his academic work -

When I listened to the following conversation, start @ 38:30 for the meat of the discussion, he relates that Nephi was struggling with discrimination and racism.  Initially after hearing the comments I was taken aback.  But after having some time to reflect, I think he is correct.

 

 

Excellent discussion.

[Vort]

4 hours ago, mikbone said:

When I listened to the following conversation, start @ 38:30 for the meat of the discussion, he relates that Nephi was struggling with discrimination and racism.  Initially after hearing the comments I was taken aback.  But after having some time to reflect, I think he is correct.

Bull crap. All due respect to Brother Hardy's efforts, but this is bull crap. It's an acute, perhaps terminal, case of presentism. If the Book of Mormon offends you, the problem does not lie with the Book of Mormon.

[estradling75]

12 minutes ago, Vort said:

Bull crap. All due respect to Brother Hardy's efforts, but this is bull crap. It's an acute, perhaps terminal, case of presentism. If the Book of Mormon offends you, the problem does not lie with the Book of Mormon.

By present standards..

If are white you are racist
If you are male you are sexist

If we in the here and now do not stand any chance against such charges.... how can any historical figure be expected to?

[mikbone]

2 hours ago, Vort said:

Bull crap. All due respect to Brother Hardy's efforts, but this is bull crap. It's an acute, perhaps terminal, case of presentism. If the Book of Mormon offends you, the problem does not lie with the Book of Mormon.

Thank you Vort.  I knew this would strike a cord. 

It offended me at first, but then I just kept thinking about it.

And this verse came into mind.

Mormon 8:17 And if there be faults they be the faults of a man.

Is it possible that Nephi and Mormon made a mistake and used words that were not inspired in a few cases?  

No doubt there are racially inciteful passages in the Book of Mormon.  Similarly as there are found passages in the Bible that are racially or culturally unsavory.

There are terms like loathsome and delightful and maybe those terms misled the early saints.  Maybe passages in the first edition of Mormon Doctrine were supported by these inciteful words...

As a surgeon I have had times when I took care of a patient that many would describe as loathsome: morbidly obese, infested with maggots or gangrene.  Body odor that would bring a delightsome person to their knees.  IV drug abusers with abscesses, and oral care that is beyond foul.  If you are not careful, when taking care of these people, you can have a feeling of superiority and treat them as if they are sub-human.  I admit that I have done so in the past.  The scriptures list many passages that treat people with leprosy the same.  And there are many passages about uncleanness.  

With time, I have come to the recognition that these people are not loathsome.  Maybe their circumstances are, but the people are not.  In 3-4 days after these patients come into the hospital and have baths, treatments, surgeries, amputations, haircuts, regular meals, etc.  They change dramatically and are no longer loathsome.  So after many of these experiences, I have learned to temper my senses and feelings, so that I picture them as if they have already been cleaned.  You know what, it makes a difference.  These people are some of the most grateful for the care. 

And every instance that I can recall about Jesus Christ coming into contact with these 'loathsome' people his interactions are similar.  That I can recall, he never treated anyone as if they were loathsome.  

The Book of Mormon does not offend me.  So, is it ok to think that perhaps Nephi or Mormon or Alma could have chosen better words?

"Words matter" - Ronald A. Rasband

 

Edited July 19, 2024 by mikbone

[laronius]

2 Nephi 5:22 And thus saith the Lord God: I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities.

There are two ways to interpret this and Nephi "making a mistake" isn't one of them. Either the Lord told him to say this and Nephi is completely justified in his comments or the Lord didn't tell him to say this and Nephi is a false prophet. 

[mordorbund]

9 hours ago, mikbone said:

When I listened to the following conversation, start @ 38:30 for the meat of the discussion, he relates that Nephi was struggling with discrimination and racism.  Initially after hearing the comments I was taken aback.  But after having some time to reflect, I think he is correct.

First off, if I need to point out that anyone who decides Nephites are racist in any way similar to the racism that’s almost universally decried today, then they are tacitly admitting that “skin of blackness” was a literal change of Lamanite’s literal skin. After all the Matrix-level dodging of a literal reading, do they want to return to that to give Nephi this flaw?

Second, who was Nephi racist against? His own brothers, nieces, and nephews? We’ve assumed cultural and societal intermingling and even intermarriage into the text, but that first generation married within the two founding families (plus Zoram). Is racism the right word to throw around here?

Nephi falls in love with Isaiah’s prophecies and especially seems to favor the pro-gentile message. Gentiles readily fall outside of Nephi’s race.

[mikbone]

Alma 26:10 And it came to pass that when Ammon had said these words, his brother Aaron rebuked him, saying: Ammon, I fear that thy joy doth carry thee away unto boasting.

Who was correct?  Ammon, Aaron, both, neither? 

Someone made a mistake.  It wasn't a big mistake but it was a mistake.  

I'm not condemning Nephi.  I have made much greater mistakes.  I am blessed to have his words, insight and example.  

And I have put my foot in my mouth too many times to count...

But he wasn't perfect.  

[Traveler]

12 hours ago, mikbone said:

Thank you Vort.  I knew this would strike a cord. 

It offended me at first, but then I just kept thinking about it.

And this verse came into mind.

Mormon 8:17 And if there be faults they be the faults of a man.

Is it possible that Nephi and Mormon made a mistake and used words that were not inspired in a few cases?  

No doubt there are racially inciteful passages in the Book of Mormon.  Similarly as there are found passages in the Bible that are racially or culturally unsavory.

I believe that like an onion there are layers in scripture and revelation.  Or as Isaiah said, “Line upon line upon line and precept upon precept upon precept.   To me this indicates that as a person become more spiritually aware or grows in keeping the covenants that the meaning of sacred things can change drastically.   I will use your reference of Mormon 8:17: “And if there be faults they be the faults of a man.”  I have thought for many years that this means that those prophets that contributed to various passages in the Book of Mormon (including its translation into English and other languages) are flawed individuals and possibly made mistakes.

I do not think that this is actually the case or what Mormon was spiritually conveying.  I am now of the opinion that what Mormon was saying is that if someone finds fault in the Book of Mormon that the fault lies with the reader (the natural man) and that if they sought the spirit by covenant with G-d they will have a spiritual experience void of or without any fault.  In summary, the fault is not in the Book of Mormon but in that person (man) that thinks there is a fault.  Especially in such a “man” that thinks and searches believing that there is a fault to be discovered.

Quote

There are terms like loathsome and delightful and maybe those terms misled the early saints.  Maybe passages in the first edition of Mormon Doctrine were supported by these inciteful words...

As a surgeon I have had times when I took care of a patient that many would describe as loathsome: morbidly obese, infested with maggots or gangrene.  Body odor that would bring a delightsome person to their knees.  IV drug abusers with abscesses, and oral care that is beyond foul.  If you are not careful, when taking care of these people, you can have a feeling of superiority and treat them as if they are sub-human.  I admit that I have done so in the past.  The scriptures list many passages that treat people with leprosy the same.  And there are many passages about uncleanness.  

With time, I have come to the recognition that these people are not loathsome.  Maybe their circumstances are, but the people are not.  In 3-4 days after these patients come into the hospital and have baths, treatments, surgeries, amputations, haircuts, regular meals, etc.  They change dramatically and are no longer loathsome.  So after many of these experiences, I have learned to temper my senses and feelings, so that I picture them as if they have already been cleaned.  You know what, it makes a difference.  These people are some of the most grateful for the care. 

And every instance that I can recall about Jesus Christ coming into contact with these 'loathsome' people his interactions are similar.  That I can recall, he never treated anyone as if they were loathsome.  

The Book of Mormon does not offend me.  So, is it ok to think that perhaps Nephi or Mormon or Alma could have chosen better words?

"Words matter" - Ronald A. Rasband

I find great symbolic parallels to your thinking here and with the principle of repentance.  In essence, there is an element of repentance and being redeemed from sin that changes a natural man from “being loathsome” a creature into a delightful creature.  Note that in both your example and in spiritual principle that repentance and redemption is not totallly the work of an individual themselves but rather more of allowing others (in a spiritual case – Christ) to have influence in a life and bring about change.  I would note that there is a great difference between allowing spiritual growth and the attitude of – G-d made me this way – why should I change (repent and spiritually grow)?

 

The Traveler

Edited July 19, 2024 by Traveler

[Traveler]

10 hours ago, mikbone said:

Alma 26:10 And it came to pass that when Ammon had said these words, his brother Aaron rebuked him, saying: Ammon, I fear that thy joy doth carry thee away unto boasting.

Who was correct?  Ammon, Aaron, both, neither? 

Someone made a mistake.  It wasn't a big mistake but it was a mistake.  

I'm not condemning Nephi.  I have made much greater mistakes.  I am blessed to have his words, insight and example.  

And I have put my foot in my mouth too many times to count...

But he wasn't perfect.  

I think that the term “perfect” is often used imperfectly.   Anciently the term used is different from our more modern terms as the ancient term translated as perfect conveys the meaning of complete rather than without ever having a flaw.

What I think it is interesting that both Aaron and Ammon came to a more complete understanding and conclusion by expressing their understanding.  In such attitude of communicating that both completed the spiritual thought and put aside the possible flaw.

 

The Traveler

[mikbone]

The number of non-white members in the church is going to skyrocket in the next century.

This is going to become more and more of a talking point 

I can remember in my youth, that I never considered dating a non-white girl secondary to my prejudices fostered by my parents and some of the Mormon teachings.  Despite me sensing that many of the non-white girls were delightsome and quite comely. 

And 20 years ago while talking to an African American LDS business associate, he was trying to explain his understanding of the priesthood ban.  I disagreed with him and shared a few passages that I based my reasoning upon.  I have felt badly from this experience for the past 2 decades.  

If I had listened to Grant Hardy's presentation I probably would have been more sensitive and Christlike.

That experience probably led me to name my 11th child Elijah Able.  

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics/elijah-able?lang=eng

Edited July 19, 2024 by mikbone

[laronius]

10 hours ago, mikbone said:

Alma 26:10 And it came to pass that when Ammon had said these words, his brother Aaron rebuked him, saying: Ammon, I fear that thy joy doth carry thee away unto boasting.

Who was correct?  Ammon, Aaron, both, neither? 

Someone made a mistake.  It wasn't a big mistake but it was a mistake.  

I'm not condemning Nephi.  I have made much greater mistakes.  I am blessed to have his words, insight and example.  

And I have put my foot in my mouth too many times to count...

But he wasn't perfect.  

I don't think anyone is arguing that Nephi is perfect, just that he wasn't guilty of this particular imperfection. But even that really isn't the issue here. The issue isn't who Nephi was but what was recorded as scripture and what those scriptures teach. And while I don't know that I'm prepared to say that the Book of Mormon is perfect I am willing to say that it does not teach false doctrine and yet that seems to be what this author is implying.

[mikbone]

14 minutes ago, laronius said:

And while I don't know that I'm prepared to say that the Book of Mormon is perfect I am willing to say that it does not teach false doctrine and yet that seems to be what this author is implying.

Can we suppose that a prior prophet made an oversight without claiming they are teaching false doctrine?

 

[The Folk Prophet]

The arrogance of these sorts of readings of the Book of Mormon always kind of amazes me. Of course it's typical of so-called "academia".  When they are learned they think they are wise, indeed.

It's one thing to understand conceptually that the prophets aren't perfect. It's another thing entirely to point out specific imperfections, as if we are somehow more enlightened than they are and well suited to judge when, if, and how they weren't perfect.

If and when the scriptures or a prophet explicitly states that something said was mistaken then I'll accept that. Until then, I think I'll assume that my imperfections are the problem rather than looking for theirs.

[ZealoulyStriving]

14 hours ago, laronius said:

2 Nephi 5:22 And thus saith the Lord God: I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities.

There are two ways to interpret this and Nephi "making a mistake" isn't one of them. Either the Lord told him to say this and Nephi is completely justified in his comments or the Lord didn't tell him to say this and Nephi is a false prophet. 

1828 Dictionary 

LOATHSOME, adjective

 

1. Disgusting; exciting disgust.

 

2. Hateful; abhorred; detestable.

 

3. Causing fastidiousness. [See Lothesome.]

 

[laronius]

4 hours ago, mikbone said:

Can we suppose that a prior prophet made an oversight without claiming they are teaching false doctrine?

 

Sure. But once it's recorded as scripture then it's doctrine, either true doctrine or false doctrine.

[Traveler]

8 hours ago, mikbone said:

Can we suppose that a prior prophet made an oversight without claiming they are teaching false doctrine?

 

I believe that if we understand and apply D&C 84 (specifically beginning with verses 33) that your question is not necessary.

How can I explain this?  A very important principle I learned while in the army - If my commanding officer said take your patrol and hold the west side of our position from the advancing enemy – that anything I do anything other than take those that follow me and hold as best as we can the west side of our position – that the outcome will result in something worse.  It does not matter how wrong the officer is– the outcome will be worse if trust is lost and teamwork fails.

I do not know what you expect as a doctor but if those under you question the validity of what you ask of them, especially in front of your patients – how effective of a doctor are you?

 

The Traveler

[mikbone]

52 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I do not know what you expect as a doctor but if those under you question the validity of what you ask of them, especially in front of your patients – how effective of a doctor are you?

Well doctoring is not like the military.  Thank goodness.  The human body is amazingly complex.  And no single doctor can possibly serve a single patient without help from other doctors, nurses, PAs, PTs, dietitians, radiologists. x-ray technicians.

I do bones, just bones.  I rely on hospitalists, anesthesiologists, infectious disease specialists, cardiologists, and general surgeons to keep my patients alive.

I have very thick books and complex websites which i refer to continually to learn and refresh myself on complex problems.

We even sometimes have representatives from the hardware developers in the surgical suites to help us construct and implant hardware.  

I rely upon my scrub techs to help me make sure that surgery is going well, materials are organized, etc.

Even the people that clean the rooms and hardware are an integral part of the team.

While in surgery we are constantly re-evaluating and I have even requested intra-operative consultations in the past.

And I never tell a patient what they need.  My job is to explain to them their options, answer their questions, and then execute the decision.  When a patient is invested in the decision making process they are much more likely to comply with post op care.

 

The current secret service cluster is a perfect description of an authority not listening to those under them.  What a disaster that could have been avoided with some humility and common sense.

Edited July 20, 2024 by mikbone

[CV75]

On 7/18/2024 at 2:22 PM, mikbone said:

I have been enjoying Grant Hardy’s perspective and particularly his academic work -

When I listened to the following conversation, start @ 38:30 for the meat of the discussion, he relates that Nephi was struggling with discrimination and racism.  Initially after hearing the comments I was taken aback.  But after having some time to reflect, I think he is correct.

I also listened to this podcast 

And then from his advice purchased the following 

It is a Hebrew and English study with extensive commentary on the Torah from the conservative Jewish point of view (1500+ pages).  It is wonderful.  In the first 15 pages of material I already see that Joseph Smith was influenced by jewish tradition / studies.  

The book reads from right to left and showed up from Amazon on the same day I ordered it.  A miracle.

This supports my position that I needn't be bothered by my assessment of other people's discrimination and racism on points of doctrine (as set forth in 3 Nephi), since the Lord draws all people unto Him, the light shines in darkness, and grace prevails after all we can do.  And the priesthood keys were restored in these conditions and I am the beneficiary of that.