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This is an idea I have pondered, and each time I ponder this type of thought I keep coming to the same verse of scripture and the same thought. John 15: 20, "Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also." The sons and daughters of God who myopically focus on the fallibility of prophets, and constantly use this as a way of disobedience or enmity would have done the same with their Lord. There's a difference between understanding fallibility and being consumed by fallibility. Those consumed would have seen an "imperfect" Savior.

I am LDS and have been since birth. Wonderful parents, horrible siblings, now entirely alone. I've been severely mentally ill my entire life, with multiple bran injuries as well. After working for 35 years, I'm now forbidden by my docs from continuing to do so. Even while working, I've always been poor. I live off of social security, 1300. a month. I have a housing voucher that enables me to live in a drug infested, dangerous apartment. I am increasingly isolated, discouraged, and feel as though I just can't do this anymore. Being really ill AND poor is too much, and I'm so exhausted from battling my entire life. So when I see the conference seats stacked with millionairs, I feel ill. I try to listen to their messages, but I'm becoming increasingly angry and feeling on the oust because none of them, male or female, can relate to me. They're wealthy, they may have health issues to a lesser degree, and tragedy visits them occasionally. But with millions in the bank, tragedies are always minimied. Please don't argue this point with me, I've seen it enough to know it's true. I wonder why we can't have a janitor, or a firefighter, or a homemaker in our global leadership? Or even in stake or regional leadership. If I had 20 million coming in a year (or even 5 million), I couldn't bank it and allow the saints in my backyard to suffer as they do. The poor in Salt Lake are being destroyed. We have horrific living conditions, we're constantly passed over for callings, we suffer discrimination at the hands of bishops and other leaders, the list goes on. I've held on to my testimony because it's rooted in Christ, yet I can't help but wonder why Christ has stacked the vast majority of his leadership positions with millionaires, or super wealthy, 'pretty perfect' people????? I'm alone, afraid, ill, and I'm barely hanging on. Any insight would be appreciated. I'd give anything for a safe home with room enough to stay organized and allow for my therapies, a live in aide, an office/paperwork, etc. I'm terrified that I will die like this, no matter how righteous and obedient I am. Temple worthy, attending, thousands and thousands of family history names to the temple, trying to care for granddaughter when I'm able to, trying to be kind to others, seeking opportunities to serve, all for nothing. I feel worthless, and my prayer for a home has gone ignored for decades. Thank you for listening.

If many/most professionals can’t consistently beat the market, I’m certainly not smart enough to do it either. Most of my retirement is a state defined-benefit pension (yay!), but the portion that is defined-contribution (the investment of which, I am allowed to direct) is in an S&P 500 index fund. I will say candidly that I done see how the stock market can grow indefinitely when birth rates (and hence the labor force and, over the intermediate term, the pool of investors) seem to be in decline. But so long as the Church isn’t completely jumping out of the market, I suppose there’s no call for me to jump out either.

As we scrutinize even Joseph Smith – his involvement in the failure of the Kirkland Safety Society was a sorry blunder. Perhaps not as bad as the lost pages of the Book of Mormon. But the effect on the early Church’s leadership was devastating. It was the single reason that half the apostles and two counselors of the first presidency left the Church and mounted up the opposition to Joseph Smith and prosecutions against the Church in general. I have pondered that if we could go back in time and meet Jesus personally, as he gathered and thought his disciples – that, like the Scribes and Pharisees, we would see sufficient flaws from what we believe of Christ, that we would discount him as the Messiah. Obviously, such a trip in time is not possible. Never-the-less, I think that often we get so wrapped up in worldly expectations and perceptions that we cannot see a forest because of all the trees. The whole reason that those that gathered by the Dead Sea and left us the great treasure of scrolls was to welcome the Messiah. And yet not one humble dedicated priest showed up when Jesus was born – unless they were the shepherds watching over the sacred flocks in the wilderness. But if they were – why did they not remain faithful and become the foundation of the New Testament? And yet there was a schism in their organization at the time. The sad truth of mortality is that we do not know what we don’t know. The Traveler

The fallibility of prophets concern is used a lot like the argument of institutional racism. It's used to cast doubt without having to actually provide specific proof. It would be far more productive to address specific concerns when they arise. And when I say address I mean take it to the Lord in prayer. No, prophets are not perfect but the process is.

Happy birthday to @Phoenix_person!

As a state employee/future retiree who’s very sensitive to the possibility of a government default (my CA neighbor growing up was a firefighter who took a huge haircut on his pension when his city declared bankruptcy): I console myself with the belief that if even fiscally prudent states like mine wind up insolvent, then the fed government will likely have collapsed and there will have been such a breakdown in law and order that any other form of investment will have similarly seen its value evaporate. We may all be on the Titanic here; but some of you drips will be going into the water long before I will be.

Elon has vision. Planned it out 2 years ago and made it happen. Notice how Elon entering the market totally changed the curve.

I pulled the trigger. Sold a bunch of stock and will put it into a US Treasury 4.8% annual yield with a 3-month maturation date. Sense of relief.😮‍💨

Funny. My understanding is the exact polar opposite: Musk is an engineering genius who is intimately involved in SpaceX's decisions, policy, direction, and success. In comparison, he delegates much of his responsibility to others at Tesla, but remains intimately involved with every aspect of SpaceX's operations. I have read many articles on this topic, and they all seem unanimous in agreeing that Musk is a constant, deeply influential presence at SpaceX, including (or especially) in the engineering details. If you have any evidence—any at all, any scrap of reliable reporting—to indicate that Musk is more a figurehead at SpaceX than an actual involved entity, please feel free to provide it. If you do not, I will assume you are just another person easily swayed by Musk's detractors. Unbelievable. Here is a man who has literally invented a space launch company within the last 25 years that has now become the most successful the planet has ever seen; has created a new automobile brand from scratch that has become wildly successful, something never seen in my lifetime; has spurred innovation into many areas, not just of research but of active development. Musk has changed the face of our economy and society. And then there's JohnsonJones, who assures us with his great wisdom and understanding that Musk is actually merely a master of stock manipulation with no real engineering ability. Whom are we to believe? Tough, tough choice. Unbelievable. Tell that to the railroad barons of the late 1800s. Yes, they brazenly used what we today would call insider knowledge to fleece other investors and line their pockets—something that Elon Musk has never done, nor even been accused of—but it was all based on railroad technology and improvements. In other words, engineering technology and improvements that I would add we use to this very day. JJ, you're a hater. You hate Elon Musk and seek to minimize or deny his accomplishments. I don't know why you're doing it, but be assured I see what you are doing.

Yeesh. Trying to buy a used car. Trying to get dollars moved out of one account and into the checking account, so I can write the check. Transfer request Friday evening, now it's Wednesday. Transfer is still pending. Called customer support, spent 20 minutes trying to verify who I am before they'd help me. They got my social, my account number (after satisfying the website's verification check by sending a code to my phone). I changed my security word while I waited on hold for a supervisor, so they could have that too, but apparently their system doesn't update real time. The supervisor was finally able to send my phone another code, and they could finally get into my account to help me. Spent the last 9 minutes hearing that transfers take 2-3 business days, and then I finally won the argument about how many business days I've been waiting (we finally agreed on 3). Now, with all those obstacles out of the way, the customer support response is "wait until the end of day and try again". In other words, I take the sense of unease we've been discussing, and raise with my story. Anyone got anxiety yet? 😨

Its been my experience that God does not hand us things... Rather God opens doors and it is up to us to have the Faith to walk through them or not. I can't tell you if this is God opening a door for you or not. That is out of my Stewardship and directly in yours. I can tell you that if I was in your place I would follow the advice above, while praying to God that I seen an opening and I am taking it. And if it is his will then please bless the effort and if it is not then please shut it down. Then I would prepare myself emotionally for it to fail while hoping it succeeds. This way God respect my agency and I respect his will as best I know it. This of course is assuming you actually want to be in a long-distance relationship... I think that is a safe assumption but I could be misreading your intent.

I'm not a stock broker nor have any good information on it. With the 401K and such there are options on what you want it to be focused on. I understand that Tech stocks are the most volatile, but also have the possibility to give the best returns. I also hear that government stocks...or whatever you want to call them...are the ones that are the least volatile and supposedly most stable...but also give the least returns. In times of volatility and craziness in the market you want to be invested in government funds, but when all looks sunny and roses...you want the tech stocks and other such things.

I may not know much, but: All that says you are anything but worthless. I'm sorry for all your struggles. I cannot explain anything except that my own trials suggest that each of us is here to learn to follow Christ no matter what. (And each of us has a different "what" to overcome.) I could only guess at the answers to your questions about who is called an why, and I don't know that guesses would be right or help you. Welcome to ThirdHour, @westdelrio! If nothing else, we can offer you the friendship of fellow saints.

Long time no see, @Anddenex! Nice to see you back.

Thanks for all the responses. I’m not anxious. I’m not looking for spiritual confirmation. I consult the Lord on issues like: should I take this job, should I move, is this the right surgery for this patient? etc. I would never seek celestial counsel on betting on a blackjack, a football team, or a specific stock. What I’m wondering is if y’all feel uneasy about: our government elections, the prospect of worsening wars in the world, the national debt, BYU football undefeated record?

Be as open and honest with her as you are with us. Just because you aren’t driving a Lexus and vacationing in Aspen hardly means you don’t deserve to be loved.

IRL, one of the big things I deal with is anxiety issues. As I've explained before, I'm high-functioning autistic and wasn't diagnosed until adulthood, meaning that I never got any of the counseling or therapy that most people who are diagnosed as children receive. Couple this with everything I've had happen to me in life, and I have a bit of a hair trigger. I'm actually coming down from a massive freak-out yesterday as a result of my credit union blocking payment to my anti-virus service; it was a regular once-every-several-years renewal, and because I didn't think to remind the bank ahead of time fraud protection intervened. Between my anxiety, the stress load I can be under in a given day, and the sum total of everything I'm worried about, I can quickly get overwhelmed mentally and emotionally. This can lead to me being so drained I have to dip into my physical energy reserves to function, and because of some health challenges I've had the last few years I don't exactly have large reserves to begin with. This means I can quickly become physically fatigued as well if I'm under prolonged stress, to the point that I can have to take a nap to reset myself. When you're in a situation like this, it's hard to feel anything *but* the panic and anxiety. A person needs to step back in order to gain perspective and allow the Spirit time to reach them, but when that person is in the thick of it they can feel like they have to take care of everything right then & there.

A few years ago, when we still had young children living at home the wife and I decided to put our finances together (trust) in case something happened to us. Two problems: What to do with the children and what to do with insurance and investments. Obviously, we could not leave our money directly to our children – they were too young. When we met with our lawyer he asked an important question. (We had decided what to do with the children but not the money). The question was – what are you more concerned about? Your children or your money. If those you have interested with your children cannot be trusted with money – Are you making the right choice? Since then, I have decided that concern for money (and things) are the least of my concerns. I have had impressions for some time that we are entering troubled times. My concerns are not because of foreign wars, the uncertainty of stocks (the economy in general), or for current politics. My biggest concern is the lack of moral clarity and not enough faith in our covenants. As I read from my past journals – I can see a creep in my own moral clarity. I have never been good at compassion. I would prefer that my personal moral clarity be more accepted by others. I always have. But I am caring less and less about others making poor choices. One may ask – who am I to determine what are the poor choices of others? I have made enough poor choices to know about poor choices and that hoping for a beneficial outcome while knowingly making poor choices is not so different than thinking that the choices are relatively good concerning the circumstances. My only suggestion is to adjust your focus – more towards the things that really matter most to you. The Traveler

That's a good way to visualize things. I suppose as long as the % I see is "higher than I see in the general population", I'm good. My wife sometimes has the gift of brevity. Here's some wisdom that applies to this situation, and countless others: "I trust God to act like God, and man to act like man." She's always happy to hear good things from humans. At the same time, she is rarely disappointed, or even surprised, at the crap she hears about what humans do. Even when they're called and set apart and sustained and foreordained and all that. At the end of the day, I'm LDS because I believe God wants me to be. Undeniable spiritual confirmations and witnessed miracles vs. quitting because humans try hard but sometimes fall short? I've picked my side.

Welcome to the forum. In a personal conversation with an Apostle (Elder Hugh B. Brown) – I asked the question: “Should we sustain and support any priesthood leader we know to be wrong?” The answer I was given was: “You should support and sustain your priesthood leaders, especially if they are wrong – because they need your support and sustaining influence more then, than at any other time.” I believe that rather than attempting to determine if any leader is grade A, B, C, D or F – the wise Latter-day Saint will determine for themselves if they are Celestial, Terrestrial or Telestial. I have had personal conversations with baptized Saints that have listened carefully to the prophets and have been led down strange paths that they found appealing. I have had personal conversations with baptized Saints that have listened to the prophets and have struggled with questions – turning to fasting and prayer - who have been led down a path drawing them closer to the Messiah and his chosen and ordained servants. I believe that reference you are making is all about advice to members to reconcile themselves to G-d and leave it up to G-d to reconcile what he will with his chosen servants. The Traveler

RSR refined my testimony in some ways while clarifying some spiritual pings I have had in the past regarding the more sterilized version of church history. I am a child of the teaching that no prophet can lead the church astray, for God will take him before this happens, which begs the question; Which of the modern day prophets was about to lead us astray but was taken by God before it happened? According to this teaching, all modern day prophets are potential suspects. I mean, how would be know if a prophets death was just age related verses being removed by God. As you can see, this teaching can not be confirmed as a truth, it can only be believed. I tend to believe that not all prophets are A grade. There are some B grade prophets, C grade prophets and if the Old Testament is correct, we even have the potential for some D and F grade prophets as well. I think the question for me has often been, to what degree should I expect to see and tolerate men's fingerprints on God's church. I wouldn't expect this to be 0% but it should be something less than 100% as well. I have often wondered if there is a tipping point in all of this? Is it possible that as the church starts to operate according to good business practices, administrative policy and legal directives more than revelation that there are too many of our fingerprints on HIS church. Maybe God removing a prophet has more to do with this tipping point than a specific doctrine that attempts to lead everyone astray. Just a thought. RSR should be mandatory reading for every member along with Mormonism in Transition and Things in Heaven and Earth (Thomas Alexander).

Thanks for the reference Zil. I found the below information. Bruce McConkie wrote on this: "figuratively, it is an anointing from on high, meaning that those so endowed receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Thus John said of the saints, ‘Ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things’ (1 John 2:20), that is, they had received the Holy Ghost so that the spirit of revelation and knowledge rested with them.”

Link to the chapter, for context. Bible Dictionary entry for "John, Epistles of". A bit of quick googling suggests this letter wasn't written to anyone specific, but to the churches (perhaps in a specific region). What I read makes me think of it like an article in the Liahona. Verse 27 builds on the same theme. That said, all I can figure is that the "anointing" suggests he's addressing those who hold the priesthood, and perhaps those who have received whatever early temple ordinances they had. And I think "know all things" means simply that they know the truth of the gospel as preached by the Lord and the apostles - sort of like saying "you know all this". Contrasting with those who are being deceived by people teaching false doctrines. (see verse 21+, which describes what John's trying to counter) Some other translations change "and ye know all things" to "and all of you know the truth" (for example). Check out this entry in the Scripture Citation Index (look for the orange-highlighted reference). Brigham Young seems to be suggesting what I said - that this is a way of referring to members of the Church. You can keep scrolling through and see how other prophets and apostles have used this scripture in their talks. Here's the NT Institute manual chapter on 1-3 John (scroll and you'll find a section specifically about this verse). HTH.

I have a problem. My kid was part of a good solid social circle. A recent event occurred where incorrect information was shared by a person who was offended because the feelings were not mutual. Since that event occurred all of the rest of the youth group has literally turned and excluded my kid from all of their social activities the group of which he thought he was a part. The offended party has told incorrect information to all of the youth leaders making it appear they were unjustly wronged. The reality is there was no interest in dating but because half truths have been shared the leaders are treating my kid differently. we have tried talking to the bishop in the past but he doesn’t listen as he only wants to talk about positive things or when repentance is needed. We have tried talking to the young women’s president but she doesn’t do anything. we tried to talk to the other persons mom but she didn’t want to let the kids talk it out and clear the air. Even the stake presidents wife says our kid needs to stop coming because of the falsehoods that were shared by the other person. at the last church dance a couple of the girls came up to my kid and cussed him out for not dating her and several other items that were not true. we are reserved and not part of any of the cliques within our ward. I know we all, kids included need to go through healthy struggles and will grow but this is not a productive struggle. We are hoping for a miracle to happen. Right now my child doesn’t believe members can be trusted, won’t stand by you and doesn’t want to be around Mormons anymore. This is just not good. Blessing have been requested and given several times due to overwhelming feeling of rejection, loneliness and knowing after hearing the other ward kids brag about getting together over the weekends. To make matters worse these kids are all children of the ward leadership group. I'm coming here for some ideas because i don’t know what to do to help anymore. sincerely an active full tithe paying Mormon parent who wants their child to stay active in spite of bad leadership.

Oh noes! The US declared bankruptcy and dissolved! The people who stepped into the power vacuum call themselves "the federated confederation of southern canada", and say they know nothing of this US treasury of which you speak of. They direct you to China for further inquiries.

As we approach the election, the tea and coffee people both try to look appealing to the cocoa bois.

I’m old enough to remember when the hard left blamed Bush for Katrina!

Welcome to the club, though this forum is by far one of the best I’ve encountered in terms of honest and fair debate. I’m the same way @JohnsonJones. I was a right wing conservative in college because I was surrounded by liberals, so it all depends on perspective. Allow me to dust off an old chestnut.

In other news... Does anyone else feel bad for the letter E? Excluded from its rightful place, pushed aside and forgotten, dragged out only when someone needs a sarcastic "E for effort"... Alas, poor E. No wonder it trails along behind so many words, hoping to be seen. We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion.

Thinking of the old joke "a broad".