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This doesn't seem like an important question for you to have an answer for. It seems like, entirely, the wrong way to come at the issue. What difference does a yes or no answer make? It's a letter of the law question that should have no bearing on your choices moving forward. If, technically, you determined kissing IS breaking the law of chastity would it change your choices vs determining it ISN'T? Seems to me that the underlying problem remains the same regardless of that answer.

I'm interested - why come to an anonymous chat room looking for answers? What are you looking for from us? Is it validation for your hurt? Is it an excuse to get divorced? Are you looking for hope for your marriage? I get that you're reeling and lost. I'm not challenging or demanding answers or criticizing, I'm asking you to reflect on my questions and tell us what you're actually looking for. You might not know. I'd suggest that answering those questions is worth your time. Do you want to stay married or not? (not a gotcha question, a genuine question) You are hardly alone here. I've heard countless stories from countless people who's spouses have done such things. You might do well to consider a bit of counseling and maybe some group support in an LDS setting. You're not alone.

FWIW, my law school graduating class was about the same size (or a shade smaller) as my high school graduating class; and it was amusing to see how many of my classmates were fairly obviously trying to turn the whole thing into a redo of their high school experiences (while the rest of us were just like “whatever, dude; I’m going home to my wife and kids now”).

I think it should be clarified that this doesn't mean that Just_A_Guy is suggesting you "move on" from the marriage or the relationship. That's a determination that's between you, her, and God. Just moving on from the past to the future and doing as best you can to be as Christlike as you can, regardless of others choices and actions.

Brother, I am sorry you’re going through this. I think @The Folk Prophet is on to something. Based on what you’ve written your wife has clearly broken her covenants to and relationship with you. You’ve got some hard decisions to make about whether that break is irreparable and where that leaves you in terms of your future relationship, financial affairs, children, etc. I think in these situations that it’s tempting to seek validation from the Church—to know that the guilty party was subjected to Church discipline, banned from temple entry, or at least to have a Church leader publicly proclaim “Jane Doe has committed sin x and the world should all recognize and acknowledge her as a predator to be condemned and shunned and person y as the victim of Jane’s behavior who deserves our support.” I would encourage you, hard as it is, to resist that temptation. To a significant degree Church discipline can only be applied to the extent that the guilty party is willing to subject themselves to such—by confessing, by telling the truth thoroughly, by making evidence available, by showing up to meetings and hearings at all. You know what she did. You know what God thinks of it. You know what destruction she has wrought. You know that someday—if not now, inevitably at some point—she’s going to feel the full weight of what she has done. You know that unless or until that day comes, her worship experiences are hollow and her covenants are null and void regardless of where she goes what scrap of paper she might carry in her wallet. It doesn’t feel like it now, but it’s possible to get to a mental and emotional state where your healing is completely independent of whatever does and doesn’t happen to her in this life. Life is still fundamentally good and beautiful, and you’ve got great things ahead of you. A quest for vindication and justice will distract you from seeking the good things in life, eat you alive, and ultimately leave you empty inside. I won’t tell you to “move on”. But I will tell you that your life will be better if you focus your efforts into cultivating a “move on” mentality.

Did anyone who had a bad high school experience have a good college experience? That happened to me. I went to a small, Catholic college for two years and was miserable. Then I transferred to UNH and absolutely loved it. Graduated with honors too.

Just remember the rules of this particular forum section for those responding. Support in Hard Times "In the quiet heart is hidden / Sorrow that the eye can't see." This Forum is to give encouragement and show compassion to those who are going through difficult times in relationships, with their testimony or with any other trial that they would like to have support from in a safe environment that offers the anonymity of the Internet. No judgment, demeaning or derogatory posts allowed: "To the wounded and the weary / I would show a gentle heart." Focus on the positives, the pure love of Christ, and how we can rise above to overcome difficult times.

So I finally watched Dear Evan Hansen. Kind of an amazing show. I have critiques. Some big ones. But overall...kind of amazing. I kind of dislike The Greatest Showman. And I've heard bits here and there from Benj Pasek and Justin Paul's other stuff. Some's been good. But one of the things that worked here is their style fits a contemporary setting, whereas the repetitive pop-rock Coldplay style writing bugs me in an 1830-40s setting. I think they kind of dropped the ball on the ending though. They addressed one of the two major plot point well...Evan's social issues and need. But they kind of dropped the ball on the other point, which is the effects of what Evan does in the show, what it mean for people, and how everything and everyone is changed from it. There's some minor alluding to that...but it needed to kind of BE the plot resolution. It needed to be on the nose, and feel good and right and truly hopeful in the end. Instead, it felt...meh. There's SO many ways they could have done this, which I won't get into here now. Evans future! What did it hold? No idea. Did he change? Are things better and hopeful? Who knows. I generally liked the music and lyrics. Except the repeated lines. Why do they consistently repeat the same line 4 times in a row? When you're falling in a forest and there's nobody around Do you ever really crash, or even make a sound? When you're falling in a forest and there's nobody around Do you ever really crash, or even make a sound? When you're falling in a forest and there's nobody around Do you ever really crash, or even make a sound? When you're falling in a forest and there's nobody around Do you ever really crash, or even make a sound? Really? I get some repetition in this regard to emphasize an idea. But they overdo it and it bugged me. I didn't love all the songs, but, generally...not bad. Not something I'd listen to repeatedly. But good music overall. A few songs were bland, for sure. And several of them, despite my thinking the pop-rock style worked here, did not work as well in that style and would have worked better in a less poppy style. And...once scene (where Evan confesses to the family) really would have been significantly stronger NOT set to music. Which is a really strange thing for me to say. Usually I think everything would be better set to good music. I was looking at some stuff about it later, and Ben Platt and Amy Adams were both nominated for Worst Actor/Actress for the movie. And I couldn't help but think that people were sure a bunch of petty jerks. I get that Ben Platt was too old to really play the part, and...sure. But bad acting? The acting was phenomenal! Seeing it considered worst acting for either of them shocked me a bit. The acting was the best part of the movie. Anyhow, I have mixed feelings. The show was good. The music was good. But the show wasn't great (mostly). The music wasn't great (mostly). I would recommend seeing it, generally. But may never find myself interested in actually watching it ever again. The movie was incredibly engaging for me...but that's mostly because I was a high-school loser who felt invisible and hated and unpopular and etc., etc. So it brought up all these old insecurities. (Inside Out 2 had the same effect the first time I saw it.) They're not insecurities any longer. But there's still strong emotion attached to the memories... so it engaged me. But.... I have to say... I think it would have been a better movie NOT as a musical. The music actually took away from the impact in a lot of ways. And they dropped the ball on the ending.

Didn't someone mention that in conference? Sister Johnson, maybe?

I testify that God loves us because He sent His Son to atone for our sins and for the sins of all humankind everywhere. This is the most powerful manifestation of all. I felt it first as I prepared for baptism and now each week as I prepare to receive the sacrament. The Atonement has been written about for centuries by prophets both ancient and modern, but is it written in our hearts? The Atonement is not an academic abstract that is learned like the multiplication tables. If we are prepared, like Nephi and Enos, the Atonement can sink deep in our hearts and fill us with wonder -Rollin H. Hotchkiss, God Loves You But behold, the Lord hath redeemed my soul from hell; I have beheld his glory, and I am encircled about eternally in the arms of his love. - 2 Nephi 1:15

This Friday, there is going to be a new movie in theaters called "King of Kings". It's an animated faith-based movie in which a fictionalized version of Charles Dickens tells his son the story of Jesus. Check your local theaters to see if it's going to show up, as faith-based movies of this nature often don't last very long outside of major cities and/or massive multiplex facilities.

To be clear, the Chinese Yuan is in a LOT more trouble than their central bank would lead us to believe. China pegs their currency to the dollar. And they had to admit a small decline because of the tariff war. Hence the 19 month low (which, frankly, isn't so much). What is worse, however, is that the foreign currency exchange market is showing a MUCH more drastic drop in just the past couple of days. It may as well have gone to zero.

JohnsonJones: Conservatives make absolutely dishonest statements about liberals and don't understand what and how they think. also: JohnsonJones: Conservative Latter-day Saints on this forum hate liberals, hate me, are more interested in worshipping Trump than Jesus, and don't care about the poor and needy. 😕 This is a pretty flawed point to try and make. I don't believe it's true -- because the claims your are making against conservatives here are mostly strawmen. How can we convince you of anything when your problems are built of facades? Obviously some of the things conservatives in this forum say are inconsiderate, rude, unkind, and flawed. Just like the things you often post are inconsiderate, rude, unkind, and flawed. Because we're all flawed mortals who say inconsiderate, rude, unkind, and flawed things, no matter our political views. But somehow that's translated to you that conservatives here worship Trump and despise anyone they don't agree with politically. But if we point out that your commentary can easily be views as despising those you don't agree with politically, you respond with something like, "I don't despise anyone here." Which you expect us to just accept. Fair enough. ...but then refuse to accept the same of us. Not fair. Yeah...easy to convince... I don't think so. Putting aside that "conservative Latter-day Saints" isn't exactly a "niche"...depending on how one defines "niche"...but putting that aside... You're kind of stereo-typing everyone. Are you really under the impression we all engage in this forum for the same reason? I, myself, started engaging because the prophets asked us to. It was an effort at obedience. I had no interest in feeling good about myself (other than feeling like I was following the prophets' and apostles' counsel and being obedient). I'm flawed, so I can't claim I've never felt self-satisfaction at piling on to someone with whom I disagreed...but I also learned from that, have made significant changes to the way I communicate, and participate far less than I used to because I'm so bad at that. I still do it sometimes. I try to fix it when I do. Because I'm interested in following the prophets, following Christ, being obedient, showing love for my fellow man, and avoiding contention. And yet, apparently, you've taken it upon yourself to tell me I'm not worshipping Jesus and hate my fellow man because I'm conservative politically. Thanks? And you think calling us weird, Trump worshippers, false followers of Jesus, and accusing us of hating others is the best form of defense? I can't speak for anyone else here...so I'll only respond for myself. You call me a "Conservative". I'm not. I'm not a Republican (though I tend to vote that way), I'm not a Conservative (though my political ideals tend to line up that way). I'm a a disciple of Jesus Christ. The things Trump does that I am supportive of, or the things that are part of the "Conservative" or "Republican" parties that I support, I support because they align with my understanding of Christ's gospel and the government ideals that I believe were given by God to the founding fathers and are taught in the Book of Mormon and by many of our prophets and apostles through the years. The things Trump or Conservatives do that I am not supportive of, I do not support because it does not align with those things, per my best understanding. I am a Christ-first thinker, contrary to your accusations. And I find it particularly and EXTREMELY offensive to be told I'm not following or worshipping Christ because I agree with and like a lot of what Trump is doing. And I would dare guess my approach to politics (while not completely or exactly the same), and the resultant offense I take from your accusations, is probably broadly representative of most conservatives on this forum. I don't care if you are for socialism, higher taxes, bigger government, or anything of the sort. You may be. You may not be. You may be just playing devils advocate for things. That's your business. I may disagree with you on what you actually think or not. And that's okay. But please stop telling me (even by implication) I'm worshipping Trump instead of Christ. Stop saying that true followers of Christ would be Democrats because their ideals align with Christ's better. It's not true. But moreover -- it's incredibly rude.

When I was in high school I was half feral due to the combination of undiagnosed mental health issues and what was, for all intents and purposes, neglect. I only had a few friends, and they were all outcasts like me. Yet somehow, in spite of everything, it was still expected that I be the best at everything *and* follow perfectly in whatever plans were laid out for me. To this day I question if anyone other than the family cat we had at the time would have shed tears over me. This is why I loathed the movie so much, as even when I was at my lowest I still wouldn't have done what Evan did, nor would I have tried to use it as an excuse to justify anything. And yeah, he rather skated after everything he did when by all rights there should have been some sort of redemption arc in which he had to *earn* the goodwill of the community again after his lie was exposed.

Does someone feel sheepishly stupid now? No...no they do not. Okay...they do.

You must not have been a pathetic loser in high school. I relate, pretty well, to making stupid decisions as a teenager for whatever reason. Don't most teenagers? Some do it for rebellion, some for thrills, and some for insecurity. But teenagers make dumb decisions. Would it have been a more satisfying moving if he'd...I dunno...gone to jail for it? Or ended up killing himself in misery because he'd messed everything up? Or a hundred-thousand dollar debt to repay the funds raised? (That one could work rather well, actually. Hmm.) He wasn't really the fund-raiser though. It was that girl. Yes, he was culpable in the fraud, for sure...but it was her idea to raise the money. But I digress....not relevant to the point you're making. I'm not sure what no true negative consequences means in this case though. He lost the girl and her family. Societally he become despised instead of just invisible. All faith and trust in him was entirely lost by everyone but his mother. That's not true negative consequences? I can definitely see showing that backlash more and really making it miserable for him because of his actions. But... I actually wanted more of a redemption arc for him, including a potentially bright future that was more than just "because we made the music feel hopeful in the end". He gets fined a hundred grand and has no hope for college now...but then in the end he writes up an essay on the whole matter, including how he's developed a better understanding and respect for his mother's love and sacrifices, and ends up signing a book deal or getting a scholarship or....whatever (not necessarily those things. Just spitballing. But...something.) Something that fixes things after he repents. That would have been more satisfying to me. I think it should have had a stronger implication that he might get the girl in the end after all...and I think her family should have reached out to him again as well with understanding and love. I can see a balance there. Stronger consequences, but stronger redemption and hope. I'm not sure the lack of those things means loathing is valid though. Not that I begrudge you loathing it. Taste and perception is personal. So I'm not saying any of this to try and convince you or imply you're wrong. Just sharing my view.

I also do not like The Greatest Showman. And when Dear Evan Hansen came out I was disappointed that it won the Tony over Come From Away. About the only thing it had going for it, I thought, was the use of digital screens to replicate social media posts going viral. I’m of the opinion that it only won the Tony because everyone assumed that it was about the fallout of a gay suicide (that was one of the hot topics of the time). When I saw the movie it was better than I thought. Not as good as the hype, but still better than I thought.

A seeming reason for the sleepiness was that the Bridegroom tarried. I interpret that to mean it took longer than expected for Him to appear. One of the signs of the times is that people will say the Lord delayeth His coming. I go back and forth on my interpretation of that, between them using it as an excuse to not prepare, thinking there's plenty of time left and wondering why it's taking so long for Him to appear, feeling despair because of the delay. I guess it could be both. Sis Johnson in GC referred to His coming "at the unexpected midnight hour" implying I believe that it took longer than expected. So if that is the case then sleeping could reference a time when the sense of urgency has passed and the saints fall back into their normal routines of living, either faithfully living the gospel day in and day out or starting to slide in their gospel living.

I can't begin to imagine what you're feeling. I'm afraid all I can provide is support and encouragement. It may be trite to say, but it's true. Whatever the trial, Christ is the answer. May you be guided by the Spirit as you get through this heart-wrenching ordeal.

Actually it's worse than that. Liberals believe that we, as conservative private citizens, don't WANT to help people. It's particularly offensive when those like @JohnsonJones state such about conservative Latter-day Saints. And he doesn't ever seem to get the irony of complaining about how conservative Latter-day Saints think he's evil as he explains how evil conservative Latter-day Saints are.

The Chinese Yuan has just dropped to a 19 month low. BTW, we will be noticing a little bit of a bumpy ride for the next few weeks to months. But it isn't "necessarily" going to mean the end of the world. Trump is tanking the stock market and foreign trade for a reason. But he has a plan to get it back up again. It's basically the biggest version of "chicken" ever played. Trump has his foot to the floor and he isn't blinking. What others don't realize is that he has a plan to jump the canyon. Yes, it's crazy. Yes, he could be wrong about all of this. But if he's right... Nothing we paeans can do but sit back and watch the show.

If you get there before I do, please put in a good word for me. Plenty of us sticking around could use a bit of help.

I'm already praying that the Second Coming will happen soon, but I think with my failing health, I probably will not be around to see it. However, the important thing is that it doesn't matter in that way, when the Second Coming is, the Second Coming for each man is upon his death when he goes to meet his maker. I only hope he is merciful to me when that time comes.

There was a time that the UK was where the greatest growth was taking place. And at the same time there was much apostasy in the Church. If not for the converts from the British Isles – the Church many have dwindled away. I believe the British Isles Saints were one of the largest groups among the pioneers that settled in the west (Utah). The Traveler

That's my mantra!

Remember the time John Wick John Wicked Wicked's Wicked Witch of the West?

I totally agree with you. Yes, it’s a musical called Dear Evan Hansen.

I just looked for some details about Hyundai. Apparently, the accusations of reverse engineering are overblown. As far as is publicly known, there is no evidence that they reverse engineered Japanese automobiles to the point where it is considered patent infringement. They are only guilty of the same practices that most other manufacturers do. They obtain competitors' products to see what properties they want to meet or exceed. Then they figure out a way to do it in their own way. Sometimes it is by a different route. Sometimes a very similar route. But so far, the industry seems to agree that no patent infringement has happened. So, sorry to have spread rumors of my ancestral homeland.