Misshalfway

I'm surprised when I hear people say "don't tell your wife." It's so interesting. Would all of you who answered this way feel the same if your spouse had done this to you? I guess I just really don't agree. It feels like such a garden of eden move. "Hurry! Put on fig leaves and hide." If I charged up the credit card, should I do the same thing? don't tell husband. Just secretly pay it off. Don't let him know. If I drink a little Schnopp's on the company trip while I"m out of town, just don't tell. If I were the wife, I can't tell what would hurt more. The affair or the lie. I'll ask the original poster. So Nate. If you're wife did this, would you wanna know?

It bugs me when I hear counselors calling their clients names, like "Bully". Counselors aren't suppose to judge their clients. Not that counselors aren't humans, but if that is happening in couples sessions, the counselor may have lost her objectivity and taken sides. Which means your therapy is compromised. I'm interested in what you said about your husband being threatened by your relationship with the children. That feels like a really important issue to address. Probably hard for you to consider because you'll be defensive about the way you mother or because you can't comprehend how something so normal could be so threatening to him. I guess I'm wondering if or how this was addressed in therapy. Was your husband assessed for any mental health issues like depression, personality disorders, trauma, bipolar? For example, anger is sometimes a huge indicator for depression in men. They don't present like women do with sadness and tears. Was he diagnosed with anything? That coupled with a medical exam might really help. If he's got something going on, it could really serve to inform your decisions and responses to him when he is being difficult. But beyond that, I mean what can you do? You can't control him. You can't love him in changing his coping/attachment strategies if he doesn't want to change. And I don't think it's wise to let others tell you what to do, especially others on a forum who know nothing. Best advise I can give is to trust yourself. If you have a role in the disconnection, find courage to address it. If all you are doing is blaming and demanding, well, that's probably fuel to the fire. But If you aren't safe and your insides are trying to warn you, you gotta listen to that. You gotta trust your inner voice. No one can know that stuff better than you. And frankly, I get that your bishopric was trying to be awesome. But showing up on your doorstep, that was crossing the line. Even if it was done with the best of intensions. Just doesn't sound right to me. It's like they did your husband's work for him. They did your work for you. And that does nothing but weaken people.

I think you do know what to do. I think you know exactly what to do. You are just scared. Really really understandable. Don't worry about the excommunication though. I really think that happens more when people are not repentant. What I worry about more is that you might not know how to deal with problems. Sounds like you've been practicing reactivity and self pity for a while now. I suppose I don't need to tell you that drinking away your sorrows doesn't work. Yes? And that it often makes normal garden variety problems much worse than they ever needed to be. I don't know. I hate to see anyone in pain but maybe for you, this is the pain you need to help you finally learn a better way of coping. It's a really understandable fear to wonder how your wife will react. I'd say plan on her being really hurt and really angry and really reactive at first, at least until she can come to grips with the wrecking ball that is headed her way. If there is any possible way you can keep yourself empathetic and out of the blindness of your own pain, that could go a long way to helping things. Not that healing is going to be fast or smooth .... just that there's enough pain here already. Do what you can to contain it. Like owning your mistakes. Owning your role in why the sex was issue in the first place. Owning your need to act out and how it may have impacted others even before your actions escalated this far. If you can do that with yourself, and bishop, and you wife, and God, you'll be in a good place for healing to happen for you. If you play the victim card, dude....you might as well squirt propane on the fire. I mean, not having sex really bites. But that's the symptom of the problem, not the problem. You know?

Yeah. Which is why it's so important to figure out the core issues. I'm not a guy so I'll never really know what it is to hold the burden of a male sex drive, but I do think I know that it's hard for women to open sexually when there isn't emotional trust. I don't think withholding or punishing with sex, or anything else for that matter, helps anything. But if a women doesn't feel safe, closing down sexually might be an indicator she isn't getting what she needs either. Perhaps it's hard not to feel victimized when sex feels withheld, but I think it would go a long way if men could diagnose the symptoms a little more and addressing core issues than just reacting with resentment.....and in this case other rather self destructive reactions.

Woah. It's a "syndome" now. Scary! Maybe I'm starting my post with this little bit of sarcasm because I think "shaken faith" SHOULD come to all of us if we are ever going to grow. And I kinda wish we wouldn't be so afraid of it and thus so judgmentally about it. I mean we are judgmental because of fear, I get it, but it doesn't really help. Sometimes I think people end up leaving the church because they don't get supported through this necessary struggling. They think something is wrong with them. They are TOLD something is wrong with them. You know? They get judged instead of loved. And that hurts. Who of any of us wants to stay and hang out with a bunch who treats us like an apostate? Who tolerates that very well, you know? My personal feeling is that the church needs a rebirth of sorts. And because I'm seeing a lot of this "syndome" these days, I'm wondering if the Lord is preparing the church for the second coming and that maybe we don't know it yet. I think this partially because of my conversations with others, but mostly because of my own experiences with doubt. I don't know exactly how to explain it but it was like God deconstructed my entire belief system and then helped me, with my agency as a key piece (as others have highlighted so well), he helped reconstruct it. And wow! It's different than before. All the same "stuff" but in a much stronger/better/broader sort of way. During this, God helped me reconstruct my understanding and belief in the church specifically. And i must share that much of what He taught me was seeing differences between the wheat and the tares inside the church. Like I needed to learn where the lies were. Cuz before, I think I just took for granted that it was all truth. I've thought long on these experiences trying to make sense of all of it with a very human and limited brain. And what I think I understand is that the church itself can be something of a crutch if one isn't careful. It gives structure and rules and safety, if you will. I think God wants a little more walking on water, if you get my meaning. I sometimes think the church listens more to the church than to God maybe. Or rely's on blind adherence to the church more than a true and living, daily conversation with God. Maybe he has to shake us a bit to help us let go of trusting the arm of the flesh and learn to trust His arm more. Is there a chance that this is happening? Is there a chance that this is part of some important proving of the Lord's children? Is it possible that letter of the law adherence just isn't enough anymore? Is it possible that all of this "syndrome" is actually a huge opportunity? I don't know anything really. I only know what I think I know. And I think I know that there's something more going on here than just weakness.

I bet it's hard. You're the person who will see the worst of human agency. Perhaps you have the chops to handle it somehow. But I don't think the questions about a loving God allowing bad things to happen is a unique one. I think we all have to come to terms with that one, perhaps some more than others. Frankly, I get a little put out that God doesn't save me from the torture of family parties. :) Seriously, it sounds like you have a huge opportunity for long conversations with God about all this. Perhaps your confusion is exactly what's needed to get the conversation started.

Well, I think everyone has done a great job clarifying what "denying the holy ghost" means and I really hope the OP can relax any fears on that score. I think some of the other comments are interesting. Reassurance is a good thing. And encouraging prayer on behalf others is good too. But we can't control people with prayer. We can't make them feel or do or want the things we want them to feel, do, or want. And I'll also add that I feel a little "twinge" of pain when I hear this man's wife referred to as an "apostate". I've never been one for labels. When they help us understand a concept or a problem, they are helpful. But when put onto people I get uncomfortable. She's a person, just like the rest of us, who is trying to figure things out. So, to the OP, I think you are scared. And why wouldn't you be? Your wife's decisions are shifting the ground beneath your feet. But if you can, remember she is still a person who is still in process, learning/growing, and figuring things out. Remember that danger is real but fear is generally a big giant liar. Don't let fears teach you the truth of all things. K?

Asking God why men do what they do. I think that explanation will take a while.

We all wear matching PJ's on Christmas eve. My 14 year old daughter wants to get jammies that match our Christmas decor. But I decorate in gold and silver. Like, who sells gold pajamma's? So...she's going to have to be disappointed. I've selected a lovely coordination between black, white, and red. (Hee hee hee. I've bought everybody a beanie. I'm so excited!)

First of all, So what if you want to associate with the church for social reasons? Since when has that been "wrong"? I have a Native American friend. I love being around her and exposing myself to her mind and her culture. And she is seriously funny. Are my motives for hanging out with her "wrong"? Oh goodness. The bigger issue is your marriage and learning to balance his needs and your needs and negotiating things in a way that honors both of you. My advice is to preach less and listen more. And maybe it's listening to each other for a long time....giving time to let the ideas settle into each other and allowing each other time to process things. When people are afraid, they tend to dig in heals and say stuff that sounds absolute! I think fears calm when they are considered and validated and understood. What scares your husband about you going back to the church? Are you sure it's about all that doctrinal stuff? If it is, find what all the stuff means to your husband and how he is perceiving it. If you can boil it all down, you might discover the problem is much less complex than you originally thought. Or maybe not, maybe he just hates mormon doctrine and hates even more the idea of you attending. But in the end, you'll support your marriage more if you don't go to war with each other over this. Give it time and patience and understanding instead.

Well Twisted_Fairytale...... ....stealing itself is a twisted fairytale. (Sorry. I couldn't help myself.)

Well, I think you should ask him. Are you coming off nagging or unsupportive? Let him tell you what he needs. He's a better source for his needs than any of us. I mean, maybe he thinks you are awesome and he's so glad he has your encouragement everyday.

I'm all for flexibility. The sealing is what matters. I can't see anything doctrinally that says anything about timing. If it's at the start, the end, or stuffed in the middle somewhere, it's all good. We have flexibility for converts and people in other countries. Why not give flexibility everywhere? We add on the ring ceremony, don't we? and we even allow it inside the sealing room. It's not part of the sealing. And we do that, why? Because it's important to people. Why not open the door to more flexibility? Go have another party/ceremony/ritual that will include and protect your family from unnecessary hurts. And then don't worry about it. We humans worry about stuff way too much.

I spose there might be some wisdom in advising one to marry "what you know". But I think this advise might be a bit outdated. The world is becoming a much smaller place. Cultures are shifting and merging...not that they didn't before...just that I think it's happening in real time. Marry who you want and then love them for who and what they are. I can't think what makes better marriage than that.

Mine is ... courage. Fear gets me too much of the time. It's time to slay some of that.

Well Hello, Irish, sarcastic, quick-witted, fast-talking History major! It's nice to meet you. I enjoyed your post for so many reasons. To save time, I'll confine my remarks to this... I don't think losing ones self is required in order to come into congruence with God. What I don't mean by that, is to insinuate that sacrifice of self isn't required because it is! And maybe that is the point. We can get into identity battles with both God and man and end up really missing the point. For me, I think I got stuck in some of that earlier in my life when I was young and devoted and wanting so badly to be good. I think I lost my identity in trying to comply with what I thought the church wanted me to be. All the expectations or cultural norms....they put a lot of fear in me threatening that if I didn't do all of it that I would be judged and rejected. Then I discovered that judged and rejected happened no matter how "perfect" I was. Not because of my imperfection but because of human imperfection. Then I decided that my worship couldn't be about what other people thought or expected. It had to be about my identity and who I wanted to be and become. And then I had to find out what God wanted from me and who He wanted me to become. And then all the "sacrifices" that He required started to make more sense and didn't threaten my identity at all. In fact, they enhanced it! I don't know that I'm that different from you. I'm a mormon. And straight. And female. That's pretty different. But beyond that, I want to have wine with dinner and I have a whole list of my favorite swear words! But I am learning that there is value in disciplining these parts of my life. I don't choose to add alcohol to my life. Not because it's the alcohol's fault. But because I made a covenant with my God not to. And He promised me that if I'd deny myself, He'd give me blessings and help me grow to higher levels of understanding and strength. You see, I value that kind of growth more than I do sweet pleasures at dinner time. The only way I know to marry myself and religion, and my relationship with God too, is through love. Practicing love means a lot of things, but perhaps most fundamentally it means stopping the war I fight with others, myself, and God too. It means putting down my weapons of war and sacrificing that selfishness for something better. If I practice that way of living, being part of religion makes a lot of sense to me. It makes sense, not because I fit in necessarily, but because I know why I'm there and what I'm doing. And most days, I feel that God and I are on the same page and that my relationship with Him is an alliance. Well, not only an alliance. It's also a sweet relationship that gives me a safe haven and somehow supports me through all of it. Best wishes to you outspoken, Irish, history major person. :) May you find what you are looking for and also find the courage and wisdom to know what parts of you to sacrifice and what parts to hold on to.

Yup. Testimony meeting is a crapshoot. You never know what you are going to get. I've left feeling uplifted and like I'm not so alone in my troubles. But other times I'm sorry to say that I leave with my eyes rolling. I'm embarrassed for that behavior. With a church full of humans with such varied experience and perspective and in speaking ability and imperfect emotions, who am I to judge it? Yet I do. I go home and rant about all the human weakness that drives me nuts! I pick those people apart and argue with their words and demand in my mind a more perfect meeting so I....the great and important me...gets what I deserve from a church service!!! Yuck. If I stop thinking about myself and think of that older man who spoke in your ward. I wonder if he's struggling. I think.... He's lost the world he knew and the values that used to give him security and comfort. And now he tries to navigate a world he doesn't understand with perspectives he doesn't relate too. He's mourning the past and arguing with the present and afraid of the future. And maybe he just wants it to go back to the way it was. If I think that....what's there to argue with? He's a man who is mourning. Don't we all mourn? And aren't we suppose to mourn with each other? I don't know. Thinking this way prolly won't make me like testimony meeting anymore than I do now, but maybe I'd love the people better. And maybe if I practice this more, I'll like myself more. I don't know. Or maybe I don't want to be so afraid that if I got up there and risked to share some of my thoughts that my ward wouldn't be tearing me apart over their pot roast later that day.

I agree. :) But it's ok to be sad too. Sorry this is happening. Losing people....especially for dumb reasons. It just hurts.

Sweets, it sounds like you are feeling guilty because you are feeling angry and defensive. As far as I can tell, you have a lot of good reasons to be angry. You are getting hurt! Of course your insides would choose defenses. I'm not sure I know everything about anger. And I know lots of people are afraid of it because "it's not like Jesus" or because it leads people to be reactive and destructive. But don't forget that anger has a really important job to do. It alerts us when something is wrong. And tries to protect us when other parts of the self aren't as empowered. Instead of feeling so guilty about not forgiving, maybe its time for you to listen to your internal warning system and take empowered steps to protect yourself. Anger tends to settle down after we honor it and forgiveness tends to come easier once we are safe. You are not safe yet. So, worry about forgiveness once you are. What needs to happen so you can get safe?

Boy....if every member of the church saw the bishop every time they had a lustful thought, the bishop would be a very tired man! Based on what you shared, confession to a priesthood leader is not necessary. If you found yourself in a lustful moment, talk to God about it. Get yourself thinking on what's important....learning all about bridling your passions so that ye may be filled with love. Talking to God about it IS confessing. Then God can teach you the truth of all things....like tutorials on how to bridle. Remember...grappling with lust is a sort of unavoidable part of sexual development on both temporal and spiritual fronts. Over reacting it's necessary or helpful.

You are really trying to find yourself. Ok. Except, I can't tell if you are discovering more about yourself or just trying to settle an argument in your head about whether you are a good or a bad person. Is this why it feels like Satan is trying to hold on to you? Because you don't know how to reconcile your past? Because you don't know yet how to make sense of how you made those mistakes of your youth? If you ask me, this sounds like a huge opportunity for healing. You stopped the porn and the lying. Awesomeness and honor to you! Perhaps it's time to slay your next dragon.....the dragon of self hate. My guess is that when you learn to love yourself, and all the parts of your self, that all this depression stuff will lift.

Well, there's general conference.... ...and general conference..... ...and oh yeah, general conference. :)

You know. Sometimes humans think like boneheads. We don't see what the Lord is doing with people. We judge instead and think we know best and forget to get out of the way and let God nurture and trust his children when and how he wants to. I love that your bishop was willing to be so honest and to share with you the humanness in the situation. It must have been hard to decide what to say or what not to say. In the end, he trusted you! I love that. And now that you know that the people you'll be working with are human too, perhaps that means that your calling, or your chances for learning how they do things in Heaven, have already begun! So many opportunities to learn tolerance, mercy, grace, forgiveness, and humility. Yes? As if callings are about getting "stuff done the right way". lol. Another poster said something about "Callings must be done in love!" As if any of us has learned the love and serve perfectly. I don't know anything about performing my callings in perfection. I only know how to give my offerings and relying on faith that God loves the widows and their beautiful little mites and that hopefully He'll love mine too. Go give 'em heaven! You'll do just fine. I'm pretty sure God thinks you can. So what could the children of men say against that? :)

I'm really sorry this is happening to you, OP. It's so hard to offer advice on this without really hearing what your wife feels but, it does sounds like she is pretty good at defenses like dismissing the problem or blaming you or making you jump through hoops to pacify or buy her time. I couldn't know, but it sounds to me like there is underlying issues for sure and my guess is they are emotional in nature. And I'm sorry all your efforts to diagnose things have proved so fruitless and frustrating. I will say that, in general, I don't think women really understand what its like for husbands to not get sex. I don't think we understand what if feels like to get turned down and how hard it is to feel close and safe in the relationship without it, and how hard it is to navigate a woman who is always a moving target. Perhaps on the flip side men struggle to understand women too, but in the Mormon culture, I worry that women see male sex drive as something unbridled or lustful or selfish. And therefore, it's something that is easily dismissed. I wonder if, because of our lack of education/understanding about sex that women feel somehow triggered when they see a husband aroused and hungry for sex. As if it means that the man only wants sex and doesn't love them or value them. And that if she gives in she'll only be an object of lust and somehow be used in the transaction. It makes sense to me that if a person feels objectified they are not going to feel safe and are probably going to shut down to protect themselves. I can't know if this bears any relevance whatsoever to your wife's sexual reluctance, but I offer it anyway. I do want to say I believe that the best sex grows in emotional safety. Something that may be a newer idea in an age where "good sex" comes from "turning each other on". Not that using human attractions to sex is wrong or bad, it's just that pleasing and placating behaviors, even if they come from a loving place, are actually distancing behaviors. So, what's meant as a method of connecting two people actually ends up separating them. And, as most of us know, real intimacy and emotional safety only happens when both parties are real, vulnerable, open, and present. If one is using vacuuming as a way to communicate all their deepest emotional longings....well, chances are the message will not get through. And maybe something else will get communicated. Like, "Hey, I really only want sex. I 'm not really thinking about you and how I'm longing to be close to you. I'm thinking about how I can get what I need the fastest. So see the cleaned dishes? I did the right thing, can you put out?" I mean it's not like women are cold drink dispensers. Put in the right quarter and she'll "turn on" for you. You know? And it's not like talking about marital duty is the best aphrodisiac. If you are going there, you might as well say, "Brace yourself, Effie!" I don't know what's going on with your wife. Maybe sex is painful. Maybe her hormones are off. Maybe she doesn't feel loved or cherished or pretty anymore. Maybe she has a secret wish to be a nun. I don't know. What I do think I heard, was that she tries to tell you her pain and she didn't get heard. Like when she talked about how hard it is to be left home with kids and housework. And how you may have dismissed her or defended yourself by saying work isn't exactly easy either. What I see there is that her emotional needs are being dismissed, much like your sexual needs are being dismissed. The responsiveness, the warmth, the soft place to fall stuff is all missing. I mean, maybe when she asks for you to help with the house, she really just needs you to see what she's going through and to feel like she's not alone in carrying the weight of raising kids. She needs you to take out trash, yes that's helpful...but she really needs your empathy, your responsive and insightful support, and she needs YOU to fill the void. Clean dishes can't do that. You see? Hope i've offered something helpful.

Well, I'm still learning what it means. And still learning how to do it. For me, I learn a little here and a little there. And just when I think I've got it, something else challenges me and I sort of have to start over. I just finished reading "The Peacegiver" and studying the story of Jonah in the OT. I'm learning a lot about how to do it by learning from Jonah and learning about how and why Jesus asks us to hand things to Him. Jonah had lots of valid reasons to hate Ninevah. And then to Jonah's dismay, Ninevah repented! Curses! And then the account ends with Jonah still holding out trying to figure it out in all of his lamentations unable yet to hand Ninevah to Jesus. I think what I'm learning is that this is part of way Jesus heals us. He gets in the middle of it so that literally he can take our grievances upon himself so that we can be free to move forward.