writer: "stay-at-home moms are criminals!"

[anatess2]

17 hours ago, MrShorty said:

After a recent discussion about welfare/medicaid, we also value being able to support one's own family rather than living off of the government. Any thoughts on the family who comes looking for help (from gov't, from church, from family) where the husband works for low pay and the wife insists on being a SAHM? Does our value for self-reliance override the desire to have mom stay home?

 

This is dangerous thinking - the idea that stay-at-home has no value or less value.

This is something I've had to remind my husband over and over even as he is someone who does value the tradition of the female gender role of being home-makers.  He keeps on forgetting that just because I don't get out of the house to work doesn't mean that I have no work.

Are there wives and mothers who stay home, watch tv all day eating bonbons?  I'm sure there are.  But, the fact of the matter is - the value of the home-maker as a function that keeps the fabrics of society tied together is a as important, if not more so, than the function of the income earning, tax-paying laborer.

 

Edited March 30, 2017 by anatess2

[Traveler]

 

I think I will say that I agree about one thing.  Any stay at home person that utilizes their stay at home time to keep up with TV programming, video games or other similar pointless and soulless activities – be they a mom, young adult, retired or anything else – is criminal and an offense to humanity.

 

The Traveler

[The Folk Prophet]

Yeah. Freedom sucks! Death to freedom.

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I think I will say that I agree about one thing.  Any stay at home person that utilizes their stay at home time to keep up with TV programming, video games or other similar pointless and soulless activities – be they a mom, young adult, retired or anything else – is criminal and an offense to humanity.

 The Traveler

That confirms it.  Just about everyone is a criminal and an offense to humanity.  I knew it.  I just wanted to hear it from an official source.

[Blackmarch]

4 hours ago, Traveler said:

 

I think I will say that I agree about one thing.  Any stay at home person that utilizes their stay at home time to keep up with TV programming, video games or other similar pointless and soulless activities – be they a mom, young adult, retired or anything else – is criminal and an offense to humanity.

 

The Traveler

probably more truth to that than not .

[anatess2]

There was a time when the old fogies thought dancing is the epitome of pointless and soulless pursuits and should be criminalized.

There was a time when the old fogies thought listening to Elvis is the epitome of pointless and soulless pursuits and should be criminalized.

I guess every generation has their own old fogies.

 

[Guest]

That's really interesting info! My artist daughter often draws with a nib pen. I should try it. I've been told I have nice handwriting. i wonder what it's like with a different pen. 

 

[zil]

8 minutes ago, Eowyn said:

That's really interesting info! My artist daughter often draws with a nib pen. I should try it. I've been told I have nice handwriting. i wonder what it's like with a different pen.

Like anything, you may need to give yourself time to get accustomed to the new tool.  After that, I would think your writing would be much the same, unless the nib is not a normal "round" nib (e.g. if the nib is a stub - similar to the wide calligraphy nibs - your writing will look different).

[Backroads]

I stumbled upon a blog post a month or so ago when purposely curious about this topic. I can no longer find it due to all the hullabuloo about the article of the OP. It was a small, one-woman-shop blog with like two comments, but it put forth similar ideas: it's better for women to be in the work force, daycare is better for kids, kids of working moms are more successful, and how working moms contribute to the economy.

Here's what I don't get: a few crazies of "get back to work as soon as the afterbirth is out" women aside, many feminists seek lengthy, paid maternity leave. 

So... what? It's good for a working mom to still be technically employed for a couple of years while staying home with her kids, but it's wrong for a stay-at-home mom to simply not work for a few years?

Now, I'm a happy working mom (though possibly moving to part-time). My ward is full of working moms and I recall one in particular taking my RS lesson on a tangent as she warbled on about how much she loves being a working mom. I thought, good for her. She's happy and her kids seem functional. I'm not totally against working moms.

But it seems we are slowly but surely heading toward a precipice. For a while we did have that burst of feminists who actually liked feminine, homey things, who fought for the respect of stay-at-home moms. Articles like this and that blog I can't find are proving it. 

I just had a conversation about this today on my teacher forum. One gal (with plenty of other issues) has kicked out her fiance because is is drug-addicted, can't hold a job, and wants her to support them on her private preschool teacher salary (it doesn't get lower). It's just smart family finances to be able to support the family on one income. In our LDS culture it is generally the wife who stays at home, though I know a few notable exceptions (I had an old ward member where the wife was a highly paid dentist, so dad stayed home). This is not a bad thing. The family can always send that wife to work at any time they choose. The stay-at-home parent is an excellent wildcard in this area. The sah parent can pretty much do anything. When  home and childcare is a high priority, is it really the ideal to be depending on two incomes? (once again, exceptions existing, but it's a nice ideal to survive on one income?) You're still in trouble if one partner loses work and you lack the opportunity of sending the home spouse out to work until better times. You just have one income being stretched likely beyond the budget while the other wildly searches for work.

So we're looking, what, for gender equality? A stressed family is the trade-off?

If your welfare system is struggling, consider getting a breadwinner from each family employed, not just ever Joe or Betty Schmoe employed.

[JohnsonJones]

On ‎3‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 2:09 PM, MrShorty said:

Maybe devil's advocate, I don't know, but can I ask this:

At one point, she makes this point about government welfare:

After a recent discussion about welfare/medicaid, we also value being able to support one's own family rather than living off of the government. Any thoughts on the family who comes looking for help (from gov't, from church, from family) where the husband works for low pay and the wife insists on being a SAHM? Does our value for self-reliance override the desire to have mom stay home?

To anticipate one thought - dad should be improving his earning potential. There will be a variety of scenarios here, but some scenarios require some time, but babies need to be fed now. So what do we make of the "husband is job hunting/training/schooling and will be better able to provide in __ months, and wife does not want to work, so help us" scenario?

This is something I sort of dealt with tonight.  I visited a family where the father works at the local grocers.  He doesn't make a ton of money and so the family lives in his parent's basement.  They STRONGLY feel that the mother should stay at home and take care of the children.  They are very poor.  It is a hard situation, but the children also definitely gain something from having their mother around and taking care of them.  She is multi-talented and bakes, sews, and other household things that half our ward have forgotten how to do.

Then there was another family in a very similar situation.  Seven kids and an income around 31K a year.  Money is extremely tight in that household.  They also feel that the mother should stay at home and the father works his normal job (college two year degree even which is the minimum requirement for the position he holds) and then works other odd jobs also.  The children are awesome and she is an excellent mother.  She sews everything for them off material she can find, as well as bakes and is extremely conservative in money and saving.

In fact, I have many families that I visit that are like this.  The benefits of a stay at home mother seem very apparent to me when I visit, however, they are in a lot of need much of the time. 

[my two cents]

6 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

This is something I sort of dealt with tonight.  I visited a family where the father works at the local grocers.  He doesn't make a ton of money and so the family lives in his parent's basement.  They STRONGLY feel that the mother should stay at home and take care of the children.  They are very poor.  It is a hard situation, but the children also definitely gain something from having their mother around and taking care of them.  She is multi-talented and bakes, sews, and other household things that half our ward have forgotten how to do.

Then there was another family in a very similar situation.  Seven kids and an income around 31K a year.  Money is extremely tight in that household.  They also feel that the mother should stay at home and the father works his normal job (college two year degree even which is the minimum requirement for the position he holds) and then works other odd jobs also.  The children are awesome and she is an excellent mother.  She sews everything for them off material she can find, as well as bakes and is extremely conservative in money and saving.

In fact, I have many families that I visit that are like this.  The benefits of a stay at home mother seem very apparent to me when I visit, however, they are in a lot of need much of the time. 

Mom at home may be the ideal but it isn't always feasible and the Church has stated such (“Nevertheless, I recognize, as he recognized, that there are some women (it has become very many, in fact) who have to work to provide for the needs of their families." - President Gordon B. Hinckley, Ensign, Nov. 1996, 69)

Perhaps some solutions would be for mom to work during hours the dad is home, babysit others kids, sell baked goods, sewing/mending for others, clean houses, do yardwork, start a blog or etsy shop (some do very well financially), etc.  

Just because the kids benefit from mom being home doesn't mean that kids whose moms have to work aren't happy and productive people.

[MrShorty]

22 hours ago, anatess2 said:

This is dangerous thinking - the idea that stay-at-home has no value or less value.

 

7 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

In fact, I have many families that I visit that are like this.  The benefits of a stay at home mother seem very apparent to me when I visit, however, they are in a lot of need much of the time. 

 

19 minutes ago, my two cents said:

Just because the kids benefit from mom being home doesn't mean that kids whose moms have to work aren't happy and productive people.

I think the thing that stood out to me in the opinion piece was this tension between the value of stay at home motherhood and the value of self-reliance. Which should we value more? Some seem to suggest that we should value stay at home motherhood over self-reliance, others suggest that we should value self-reliance over stay at home motherhood. Perhaps when all is said and done, this is one of those personal choice issues (Some people will choose to value stay at home motherhood over self-reliance and others will value self-reliance over stay at home motherhood) -- which, of course, is the best reason for not making it the subject of legislation.

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, MrShorty said:

 

 

I think the thing that stood out to me in the opinion piece was this tension between the value of stay at home motherhood and the value of self-reliance. Which should we value more? Some seem to suggest that we should value stay at home motherhood over self-reliance, others suggest that we should value self-reliance over stay at home motherhood. Perhaps when all is said and done, this is one of those personal choice issues (Some people will choose to value stay at home motherhood over self-reliance and others will value self-reliance over stay at home motherhood) -- which, of course, is the best reason for not making it the subject of legislation.

It is, of course, erroneous to think that working mothers is the solution to self-reliance.  The fact of the matter is, there are only 24 hours in a day.  The time a mother spends outside of the house is time she is not spending inside the house doing the work there so that work inside the house either just doesn't get done or has to be given to somebody else to do - hence, relying on somebody else and not one's self.

[askandanswer]

On 31/03/2017 at 0:17 AM, zil said:

T

(Compared to the handwriting of many I've seen over on the fountain pen network, my best stinks; 

Of course it stinks! So will anything written with a fountain pen. How could it be otherwise?

ps

I like your new rocket shaped avatar even if it does have some resemblance to a fountain pen nib

[zil]

[mordorbund]

On 3/29/2017 at 3:08 PM, Ironhold said:

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/rendezview/sarrah-le-marquand-it-should-be-illegal-to-be-a-stayathome-mum/news-story/fbd6fe7b79e8b4136d49d991b6a1f41c

The author is literally trying to argue that it should be illegal for a woman to stay at home once the children are old enough to attend school, as they're depriving the economy of their labor. 

It gets worse the more you read, culminating in: 

*Only when the tiresome and completely unfounded claim that “feminism is about choice” is dead and buried (it’s not about choice, it’s about equality) will we consign restrictive gender stereotypes to history.*

Yeah.

What's even more shocking IMHO is the fact that people are defending her...

Why does the author hate single, working mothers?

[Traveler]

 

The first task of the day for each individual is to make their bed and get dressed. Though this is a simple task that takes less than a minute (making a bed), I am amazed how few adults are so disciplined to begin their day by completing even a simple and very easy task.  It is my personal opinion and observation that many struggle through life with the temptation to be lazy and slothful; without enough spiritual orientation of accomplishing even the most simple of tasks without someone defining for them what to do. 

Central to the mentality of a saint of G-d is “industry” (deseret).  It may not be criminal in a Telestial world to spend most of the day with mindless, senseless and soulless activity and soulless tasks – but for a saint of G-d fixed on the Celestial Kingdom I believe a day lounging around the house in sleeping attire for more than brief moments and without enough ambition to make a bed – would be Hell.

I have no problem with mothers that care and teach our children as their primary tasks for most of their day.  The care of and example to children is certainly more noble than aspiring for riches or worldly things.  But I believe that the criminal sin of wealth and affluence is to cast off discipline and spend the day in selfish indulgences.  My father told and taught me as a youth that the best way to understand the character that defines someone is to observe what they will do when there is nothing to do or that needs doing.

 

The Traveler

Edited April 10, 2017 by Traveler

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

@Traveler a few of the finest people I know don't make their bed in the morning. That's not an indication of their character in general.  

But I agree that generally speaking sloth is not something to aspire to. 

[Guest MormonGator]

7 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

@Traveler a few of the finest people I know don't make their bed in the morning. That's not an indication of their character in general.  

But I agree that generally speaking sloth is not something to aspire to. 

I think we all have little quirks and pet peeves when it comes to undisciplined people or personal habits. I have a major problem with people don't brush their teeth-(I do so multiple times a day, and I spend an unGodly amount of toothbrushes and toothpaste) so I'm very guilty of this. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

The first task of the day for each individual is to make their bed and get dressed. Though this is a simple task that takes less than a minute (making a bed), I am amazed how few adults are so disciplined to begin their day by completing even a simple and very easy task.  It is my personal opinion and observation that many struggle through life with the temptation to be lazy and slothful; without enough spiritual orientation of accomplishing even the most simple of tasks without someone defining for them what to do.

I'm not sure what this has to do with the OP, but...

The first task is to have one's morning toilet.  Then get things ready for the day.

Making the bed:  My laziness is based on childhood habit.  It took me much longer to make the bed than anyone else.  My diminutive size prevented me from being able to do it very quickly.  One cannot reach across the bed when it hits you in the chest to begin with.  And the basic "raise and lower action" to straighten and land the sheets was an impossibility for me. Continue with additional details and it easily took me 30 minutes out of a morning which was already packed full of preparation for the day.

So, the idea of it being a "chore" has been so ingrained into my psyche that I simply dread the thought of making my bed even though it now only takes me about 15 seconds.  That feeling of dread is not so easily gotten rid of -- even today.

Edited April 10, 2017 by Guest

[Traveler]

 

It is hardly my own idea to make my bed every day.  It was first the idea of my mother – but I thought better.  Then it was the idea of the military when I served in the army – I did it then just because the consequences were not worth the hassle.  It was then the idea of my mission presidents and their wives.  I did so then because I was obedient.   Now it is the idea of my wife (that always insists on making our bed – even when we travel and stay in hotel or motel) – I do so now because at my age it is a habit.  

I believe Elder Bednar once spoke to this personal obligation of making one’s bed.   For the record – I know some very fine people that often drink a cup of wine at dinner and on occasions indulge in a fine cigar.  The Apostle spoke directly to a person’s character when he said, “To him that knows to do good and does it not – to him it is sin.”

I realize that some have never been taught to do good (discipline) and a few (very few) have figured out how on their own.   I realize no one is perfect – we all have flaws.  Some of my flaws are sure to be worse than others but my bed is made – every day.   Not because I think it fun but because it is the right thing to do.

The reason I bring this up is exactly from what my father taught – character is not so much what a person does in any given situation – it is about what a person does when they do not have to do anything – when it is simply a choice that effects and reflects on no one but themselves.   Making one's bed because they should is a choice of real agency and free will - I know of very few things that reflect agency and free will better.

 

The Traveler

Edited April 10, 2017 by Traveler

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Well, you see the firat person that taught me to make a bed was my abusive step-father. He thought I was Cinderella apparently. Though I was less than 10 yrs old, he made me make every bed in the house  (not just mine) with hospital corners!  I also did the dishes, cleaned the tub etc.  We won't talk about what else he thought I was good for . . ...

So bed making just isn't high on my priority list. But no worries @MormonGator I do brush my teeth.  Though admittedly not several timea a day.

@Carborendum I'm happy to add you to my list of fine, accomplished people who don't make their beds. Welcome, LOL.

Edited April 10, 2017 by LiterateParakeet

[Guest MormonGator]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

.   Now it is the idea of my wife (that always insists on making our bed – even when we travel and stay in hotel or motel) – I do so now

I know what you mean with this one too my friend. We (LadyGator and I) stay at a place on Longboat Key several times a year. When we stay there, we always do the dishes and clean the room a bit before we go. The manager there is always very appreciative of it! 

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

24 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I know what you mean with this one too my friend. We (LadyGator and I) stay at a place on Longboat Key several times a year. When we stay there, we always do the dishes and clean the room a bit before we go. The manager there is always very appreciative of it! 

Now that you mention it...that's my pet peeve if you will...when people leave a huge mess on their table in a restaurant, or in a hotel room.  I know the service people get paid to tidy up after you, but that doesn't mean you need to be a slob.  

[Guest MormonGator]

2 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Now that you mention it...that's my pet peeve if you will...when people leave a huge mess on their table in a restaurant, or in a hotel room.  I know the service people get paid to tidy up after you, but that doesn't mean you need to be a slob.  

PREACH. 

The true sign of a good person is how you behave at a restaurant. If you snap your fingers at the waiter, talk down to them, leave no tip and make a big mess, there is no chance you will ever achieve salvation in the next life. 

(joking, but sort of serious)