How do I gain a testimony of:

[Fether]

The topic of the Atonement has always been very boring to me. I have always felt that every discussion, talk, or chapter found in a book dealing with the atonement just repeats and covers the same things over and over. I tend to get passionate about most gospel topics except for the atonement. It is difficult for me to get excited about just because it all revolves around a concept we can't fully understand and passages of scriptures that essentially repeat the same thing over and over.

Now I do have a testimony of it and I can think of MANY instances in my life where the power of Christ, through his atoning sacrifice, has benefited me or even saved my life. But the passion just isn't there.

This, of course, is my view and may not be completely true, but after the last conference, I decided that I needed to develop a stronger testimony and find how I can get more excited about the topic. I make it part of my regular prayers and am studying it in the Book of Mormon and anywhere else I can find it.

So... Any thoughts? Are there Books that are particularly good or chapters in church manuals? I had read the Infinite Atonement by Tad R Callister... but I found that utterly boring and full of repeating anecdotes that essentially all said the same thing.

[zil]

Random thoughts:

Quote

John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

From "The Candle of the Lord" (bold is mine):

Quote

It is not unusual to have a missionary say, “How can I bear testimony until I get one? How can I testify that God lives, that Jesus is the Christ, and that the gospel is true? If I do not have such a testimony, would that not be dishonest?”

Oh, if I could teach you this one principle. A testimony is to be found in the bearing of it! Somewhere in your quest for spiritual knowledge, there is that “leap of faith,” as the philosophers call it. It is the moment when you have gone to the edge of the light and stepped into the darkness to discover that the way is lighted ahead for just a footstep or two. “The spirit of man,” is as the scripture says, indeed “is the candle of the Lord.” (Prov. 20:27.)

As for study, I have personally found that while I feel the Spirit and confirmation of truth when I read talks, manuals, or books, I learn more and deepen my understanding better when I go to the source (scripture) and study - which, frankly, is really hard - I find that study means:

• Taking more time than I like / think I have / think it should
• Reading slowly and carefully
• Taking notes not of what it says, but of what I learned from what it said
• Reviewing and reorganizing my notes multiple times
• Forming an action plan from my conclusions
• Pondering as I do all of that
• Praying through all of that

Generally, in order for a modern adult (who doesn't have enough money to buy the free use of all their own time) to accomplish this, they first have to give themselves permission to let the process take longer than they'd like.

FWIW

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Fether said:

The topic of the Atonement has always been very boring to me. I have always felt that every discussion, talk, or chapter found in a book dealing with the atonement just repeats and covers the same things over and over. I tend to get passionate about most gospel topics except for the atonement. It is difficult for me to get excited about just because it all revolves around a concept we can't fully understand and passages of scriptures that essentially repeat the same thing over and over.

Now I do have a testimony of it and I can think of MANY instances in my life where the power of Christ, through his atoning sacrifice, has benefited me or even saved my life. But the passion just isn't there.

This, of course, is my view and may not be completely true, but after the last conference, I decided that I needed to develop a stronger testimony and find how I can get more excited about the topic. I make it part of my regular prayers and am studying it in the Book of Mormon and anywhere else I can find it.

So... Any thoughts? Are there Books that are particularly good or chapters in church manuals? I had read the Infinite Atonement by Tad R Callister... but I found that utterly boring and full of repeating anecdotes that essentially all said the same thing.

Standing back up after tripping over a shoelace is much easier than being cared for in the hospital after jumping off a 10 story building.  The first, we tend to brush off and forget about after a short while.  The latter is an experience we remember.

Does that apply to you?

I only truly gained a testimony when I really felt the spiritual wounds - healed.  Some were self-inflicted.  Some were from others.  But the healing being all the more real when the wounds so deep.

Edited April 5, 2018 by Guest

[Vin]

I don't have any resources for you (I'm a new convert), but God sent us to earth to learn and have the free will to choose him for ourselves. In order to learn, we would face challenges and God knew we would mess up - each of us differently. He explained all this to us and we agreed to come to earth (well most of us). I have a testimony that God really does care - therefore he worried... a lot, even though he knew these steps were necessary for us to grow. He knew we would mess up, get hurt, make bad choices that would lead to consequences. Then Jesus stood up and said "I'll take all the sin, every single time they mess up, I will take it. I will also take every consequence, every tear, every bad emotion."

Jesus had free will, just like the rest of us. But he chose to save us. Even when he was on earth when he could have chosen a different path, because it's not like he wasn't scared or concerned.

I'm sorry that I don't have scriptures to quote you but try to keep in mind that it was his choice to do that for you, not just a destiny that he had no choice over at all. 

[JohnsonJones]

Read the New Testament.  Truly read it and study it in depth. 

Talmage's Jesus the Christ is a good one to read.

The Miracle of Forgiveness is good, but might be on the Boring side for you.

A good series by McKonkie is the Messiah series...composed of the Promised Messiah, the Mortal Messiah, and the Millenial Messiah.

Some of the books I'd say that are good in regards to the atonement.

[mordorbund]

I've gained a lot through the following studies:

• study topics related to the Atonement of Christ and see how that affects your feelings toward the Savior
  • What is God's standard of Justice? You already know this, but studying it may help you feel the ponderous gravity of it.
  • The Fall has several themes including sin, transgression, innocence, dominion/stewardship, marriage and family, etc. How do each of these interplay with the Atonement?
  • What is the role of the Old Testament "redeemer' (goel)? Why is the covering of the Ark of the Covenant referred to as the "seat of atonement" or "mercy seat"? Some of the Old Testament sacrifices are personal, and some are national. What does this have to do with the Atonement?
• study the doctrine of the Atonement. Specifically, What is the doctrine teaching would happen if we did not have the Atonement?
  • Callister's Infinite Atonement might be good to revisit with this perspective (I wouldn't know, I haven't read it), but I thought John Taylor's Mediation and Atonement was good for this.
• study the act of the Atonement itself. Create your own synoptic version of the event.
  • Which day of Holy Week do you start with? What events do you include?
  • Read McConkie's Purifying Power of Gathsemane. Why does he include events that you've excluded?

But the biggest leap that I've had with respect to the Atonement is simply acting in righteousness.

• giving blessings and listening to the revelations of the Spirit
• working with new converts and hear how God is working in their lives
• home teach families and see how God is working in their lives
• rearing children, with all the accompanying expectations, anxieties, disappointments, and joys.

[The Folk Prophet]

I would say that the finding of a topic boring or not can usually come down to personal application or the lack thereof (particularly in the gospel). Therefore, my suggestion would be to approach all study done related to the Atonement by personally applying the principles to your own life/situations.

[An Investigator]

The Infinite Atonement is a really good book

[Anddenex]

On 4/6/2018 at 3:57 PM, mordorbund said:

I've gained a lot through the following studies:

• study topics related to the Atonement of Christ and see how that affects your feelings toward the Savior
  • What is God's standard of Justice? You already know this, but studying it may help you feel the ponderous gravity of it.
  • The Fall has several themes including sin, transgression, innocence, dominion/stewardship, marriage and family, etc. How do each of these interplay with the Atonement?
  • What is the role of the Old Testament "redeemer' (goel)? Why is the covering of the Ark of the Covenant referred to as the "seat of atonement" or "mercy seat"? Some of the Old Testament sacrifices are personal, and some are national. What does this have to do with the Atonement?
• study the doctrine of the Atonement. Specifically, What is the doctrine teaching would happen if we did not have the Atonement?
  • Callister's Infinite Atonement might be good to revisit with this perspective (I wouldn't know, I haven't read it), but I thought John Taylor's Mediation and Atonement was good for this.
• study the act of the Atonement itself. Create your own synoptic version of the event.
  • Which day of Holy Week do you start with? What events do you include?
  • Read McConkie's Purifying Power of Gathsemane. Why does he include events that you've excluded?

But the biggest leap that I've had with respect to the Atonement is simply acting in righteousness.

• giving blessings and listening to the revelations of the Spirit
• working with new converts and hear how God is working in their lives
• home teach families and see how God is working in their lives
• rearing children, with all the accompanying expectations, anxieties, disappointments, and joys.

This is what Elder Bednar recommends to us.

[CV75]

On 4/5/2018 at 9:51 AM, Fether said:

The topic of the Atonement has always been very boring to me. I have always felt that every discussion, talk, or chapter found in a book dealing with the atonement just repeats and covers the same things over and over. I tend to get passionate about most gospel topics except for the atonement. It is difficult for me to get excited about just because it all revolves around a concept we can't fully understand and passages of scriptures that essentially repeat the same thing over and over.

Now I do have a testimony of it and I can think of MANY instances in my life where the power of Christ, through his atoning sacrifice, has benefited me or even saved my life. But the passion just isn't there.

This, of course, is my view and may not be completely true, but after the last conference, I decided that I needed to develop a stronger testimony and find how I can get more excited about the topic. I make it part of my regular prayers and am studying it in the Book of Mormon and anywhere else I can find it.

So... Any thoughts? Are there Books that are particularly good or chapters in church manuals? I had read the Infinite Atonement by Tad R Callister... but I found that utterly boring and full of repeating anecdotes that essentially all said the same thing.

I recommend beginning with the most basic material you can find (Primary lessons, Friend articles). Include material about the sacrament as well. Pray and fast if necessary that you will become as a little child, and not be bored as you read them and internalize their teachings and messages. Progress as able but don't be in a hurry, just anxiously engaged and diligent.

Edited April 9, 2018 by CV75

[Sunday21]

@Fether. I didn’t really get the Atonement either until I started to read through all the references in the Topical Guide for Jesus.

Maybe reading all the references to the Atonement in the Topical Guide would help? https://www.lds.org/scriptures/tg/atonement?lang=eng

[Traveler]

 

The atonement has been (and is) an amazing study for me.  Originally the term was invented by Tyndale when he created the first version of the English Bible.  He invented the word because there was no translation in the English for the ancient Hebrew or Greek terms used in sacred texts.  His invention was considered blasphemous and a sacrilege – a crime for which he was burned at the stake.    The word has no actual meaning other that what scholars have learned and applied from trying to understand ancient language.

When Adam was introduced to the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil – I believe that the knowledge of good is a direct reference to what we call the Atonement.   It involves the “condescension” of G-d from creator of the universe to a man suffering the pains of all (infinite) evil into a unequaled painful death spiral.   It is the price Christ suffered for granting mortal man’s agency and power to have knowledge of good and evil – not as a passing possibility of study but an experience with the wage of sin (death and hell) and a rescue by ransom of the greatest treasure in the universe.    It is the ultimate conflict, war and tragedy but with a final end; victorious over death and hell.   It is the epoch of greatest love and sacrifice – truly the greatest story ever told.

It is more than a doctrine – it is justice of divine law and the keeping of a promise made in covenant of the greatest love story ever written.  It is the most misunderstood character of G-d impossible to understand in this mortal existence because it includes our own resurrection in a binding covenant that makes a man into a G-d.  For me – the Atonement is perhaps the thing in this universe that is the least boring of all things.

I do not think anyone can gain a testimony of the Atonement until they have fulfilled a remission of their sins by covenant with G-d through the power of the priesthood and become a reborn Saint of G-d.

 

The Traveler

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Traveler said:

The atonement has been (and is) an amazing study for me.  Originally the term was invented by Tyndale when he created the first version of the English Bible.  He invented the word because there was no translation in the English for the ancient Hebrew or Greek terms used in sacred texts.  His invention was considered blasphemous and a sacrilege – a crime for which he was burned at the stake.    The word has no actual meaning other that what scholars have learned and applied from trying to understand ancient language.

I have a problem when people say it has "no actual meaning."  It does have a meaning.  It's just that it is simply not used in any other context.  It is like saying "Telestial" has no actual meaning.  It certainly does to us as Latter-day Saints.  But it is never used in any other context. 

Many words in many languages are cognates because of this phenomenon.  There are even objects that are found in some parts of the world that simply don't exist in other parts of the world, so they are only named in the local language.  Then that is brought into other languages.  The same is true for some words in our own language.

Certain chemicals such as sulfuric acid means something to the lay person, but is meaningless when termed in the empirical formula H2SO4.  The matter becomes even worse when using an unfamiliar term such as ettringite.  The average person has never even heard the word and even if termed by the empirical formula, it is meaningless.  Yet it has a meaning to those who know.

7 hours ago, Traveler said:

When Adam was introduced to the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil – I believe that the knowledge of good is a direct reference to what we call the Atonement.   It involves the “condescension” of G-d from creator of the universe to a man suffering the pains of all (infinite) evil into a unequaled painful death spiral.   It is the price Christ suffered for granting mortal man’s agency and power to have knowledge of good and evil – not as a passing possibility of study but an experience with the wage of sin (death and hell) and a rescue by ransom of the greatest treasure in the universe.    It is the ultimate conflict, war and tragedy but with a final end; victorious over death and hell.   It is the epoch of greatest love and sacrifice – truly the greatest story ever told.

It is more than a doctrine – it is justice of divine law and the keeping of a promise made in covenant of the greatest love story ever written.  It is the most misunderstood character of G-d impossible to understand in this mortal existence because it includes our own resurrection in a binding covenant that makes a man into a G-d.  For me – the Atonement is perhaps the thing in this universe that is the least boring of all things.

I do not think anyone can gain a testimony of the Atonement until they have fulfilled a remission of their sins by covenant with G-d through the power of the priesthood and become a reborn Saint of G-d.

This bolded portion is pretty much what I was trying to say before.  But I like your statement better.

[Traveler]

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I have a problem when people say it has "no actual meaning."  It does have a meaning.  It's just that it is simply not used in any other context.  It is like saying "Telestial" has no actual meaning.  It certainly does to us as Latter-day Saints.  But it is never used in any other context. 

Many words in many languages are cognates because of this phenomenon.  There are even objects that are found in some parts of the world that simply don't exist in other parts of the world, so they are only named in the local language.  Then that is brought into other languages.  The same is true for some words in our own language.

Certain chemicals such as sulfuric acid means something to the lay person, but is meaningless when termed in the empirical formula H2SO4.  The matter becomes even worse when using an unfamiliar term such as ettringite.  The average person has never even heard the word and even if termed by the empirical formula, it is meaningless.  Yet it has a meaning to those who know.

 

Words and language are symbolic representations.  They are not necessarily something or have meaning only in what is understood in the symbolic reference.   Plus, there is another dimension introduced when a translation is made between languages.   The saying is that “something is lost in the translation”.  It could have as easily been said that “something is added in the translation”.  What I am trying to say is that there is ambiguity in language – especially in written language because emotions and other personal expressions are missing from what is written that can change to some degree the context and meaning.

Now that I have established the context of symbolism there is plenty of excuse to argue over the meaning of anything spoken or written.  As a side note – mathematics is a language that for the most part lacks the ambiguity of other languages – but then there are no subjective references in mathematics.

I am convinced that without the spirit of G-d – it is impossible to deal with the symbolism of scripture.  Let me give another example of what I am meaning.  Last year I visited Israel.  The first takeaway is that every painting I have ever seen is not true to the landscape.  Regardless of the inspiration of the artist their depiction was inaccurate.

More and more I am beginning to understand something I have missed when Jesus said, “eyes that see yet see not and ears that hear yet hear not”.  I am beginning to think that those of us (myself included) that argue over the meaning of scripture – do not understand Christ and his mission – which is the same as to say – we have misinterpreted our sacred scripture.

Rather we should see different views as spiritual gifts (See Moroni chapter 10) that add harmony to a tapestry of divine revelation – but those that bring a spirit of contention (as I often do) distract and like an off-key instrument that brings discord to the rest of the orchestra and it beautiful harmony.

 

Sometimes there are new words that are made up for translations; sometimes the original word is used untranslated – and sometimes a word from another language is used in our modern versions of “The Bible”.  Atonement, Passover and Cherubim are examples of words that do not translate.  Sometimes word meaning changes over time – for example to say that someone is gay has been changed greatly.  I have pondered that words like salvation, stranger, gentile, infidel, Babylon, Zion, disciple, master, kingdom and Saint as understood in scripture are among such words of change.

 

The Traveler

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Words and language are symbolic representations.  They are not necessarily something or have meaning only in what is understood in the symbolic reference.   Plus, there is another dimension introduced when a translation is made between languages.   The saying is that “something is lost in the translation”.  It could have as easily been said that “something is added in the translation”.  What I am trying to say is that there is ambiguity in language – especially in written language because emotions and other personal expressions are missing from what is written that can change to some degree the context and meaning...

I read your whole post.  And it was quite the rabbit hole.

Here is what I think you're trying to say:  We don't know the original definition of the word.

That is quite different from: It has no meaning.

We don't know what Jesus looked like.  But that doesn't mean Jesus didn't exist.

https://askgramps.org/artists-portray-christ-white-skinned/

Edited April 10, 2018 by Guest

[Traveler]

40 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I read your whole post.  And it was quite the rabbit hole.

Here is what I think you're trying to say:  We don't know the original definition of the word.

That is quite different from: It has no meaning.

We don't know what Jesus looked like.  But that doesn't mean Jesus didn't exist.

https://askgramps.org/artists-portray-christ-white-skinned/

 

What I am saying is that virtue precedes understanding of spiritual things (including many scriptural terms).

Concerning those that think Jesus was a carpenter that, like his stepfather, worked wood – there are things about Jesus that they have conjured that do not fit the time, circumstance and place that Jesus lived and waked among men.

There is a story of two early farmers on the frontier of America in the early 1800’s.  One had recently returned from a trip to the eastern part of their country where he had seen a giraffe.   He tried to explain the animal to his friend – but it was not until years later that the friend actually understood what a giraffe was when he finely saw one for himself.  I am trying to communicate that spiritual things and the understanding of them cannot be understood until they are experienced.  Sometimes, we humans get the idea that we understand something because we have diligently studied it.  I am saying that somethings must be experienced.

 

The Traveler

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Traveler said:

What I am saying is that virtue precedes understanding of spiritual things (including many scriptural terms).

Concerning those that think Jesus was a carpenter that, like his stepfather, worked wood – there are things about Jesus that they have conjured that do not fit the time, circumstance and place that Jesus lived and waked among men.

There is a story of two early farmers on the frontier of America in the early 1800’s.  One had recently returned from a trip to the eastern part of their country where he had seen a giraffe.   He tried to explain the animal to his friend – but it was not until years later that the friend actually understood what a giraffe was when he finely saw one for himself.  I am trying to communicate that spiritual things and the understanding of them cannot be understood until they are experienced.  Sometimes, we humans get the idea that we understand something because we have diligently studied it.  I am saying that somethings must be experienced.

I get all that and agree with it.  What does that have to do with whether a word has a meaning or not?

The word can have a 'standard' meaning.  And then you can understand that the particular application of a word means something different.  But you're not really connecting to my comment about words having a meaning.

[The Folk Prophet]

6 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I read your whole post.  And it was quite the rabbit hole.

Welcome to communication with @Traveler.

[The Folk Prophet]

6 hours ago, Traveler said:

 I am saying that somethings must be experienced.

Must they? Or can the Spirit teach us truth even without our direct experience?

[Traveler]

41 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Must they? Or can the Spirit teach us truth even without our direct experience?

Hmmmmm - are you saying I am a liar and that there is never a reason to actually experience anything? 

 

The Traveler

[The Folk Prophet]

3 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Hmmmmm - are you saying I am a liar and that there is never a reason to actually experience anything? 

I believe I wasn't "saying" anything. I believe, if you look closely, you'll note that my sentences are ended in a symbol you might recognize as an indication of a question. It's called a question mark. It looks like this ----> ?

And why, exactly, Mr. Rabbit Hole, would you inject the idea of "never" into it? (<--- note the question mark)

Shall I try again? (<--- note the question mark)

Can the Spirit teach us things without our having experienced them directly? (<--- note the question mark)

I am not asking if the Spirit WILL always do this. I am asking if it CAN.

[wenglund]

On 4/5/2018 at 7:51 AM, Fether said:

The topic of the Atonement has always been very boring to me.

I like this quote...:

"Is boredom anything less than the sense of one's faculties slowly dying?" Arthur Helps

...followed by this quote:

"Boredom always precedes a period of great creativity." Robert M. Pirsig

I pray for your transition in this regard, particularly on such a critical topic--which transition is dependent more upon you than your reading material.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[askandanswer]

I strongly recommend having a long and in-depth conversation with someone whose life has been transformed through the power of the atonementm Possibly someone who was living in serious sin for a long time and then came back and felt the loving arms of Jesus around them. As they share their experience look for the light in their eyes and feel the emotion in their voice as they talk about their experience with Jesus then notice how you are feeling as they share.As you feel their Spirit and gratitude and love for the Savior their light might be enough to light your lamp.

D&C 46:13 To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world.
            14 To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful

[Traveler]

On ‎4‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 6:05 PM, The Folk Prophet said:

I believe I wasn't "saying" anything. I believe, if you look closely, you'll note that my sentences are ended in a symbol you might recognize as an indication of a question. It's called a question mark. It looks like this ----> ?

And why, exactly, Mr. Rabbit Hole, would you inject the idea of "never" into it? (<--- note the question mark)

Shall I try again? (<--- note the question mark)

Can the Spirit teach us things without our having experienced them directly? (<--- note the question mark)

I am not asking if the Spirit WILL always do this. I am asking if it CAN.

I am sorry - It appears to me that you are deliberately trying to provoke – especially with comments like “Mr. Rabbit Hole”.  Since I am not sure how to respond to such comments only to say I believe such speech appears to me to have hurtful intent unbecoming a Saint, “standing for the right”.  If I am wrong and this is not and has never been your intent I apologize.

I am not sure if you and I can peruse a friendly exchange – I would like to try some day but I think today is not that day. 

My comment was that "some things" can only be learned by experience.   I believe the spirit does confirm the truth of all good things that are true – but I do not believe that spirit can teach what a person is unwilling to experience.  So yes, I still believe that some (not all) things can only be learned by experience.

Some examples:

The Truth of tithing is only learned by paying tithing.

The joy of a holly Sabbath is only learned by conscious efforts to respect the sacredness of the Sabbath

The blessings of sacrifice can only be appreciated by making meaningful and real sacrifices.

 

And Yes!!!! I do regret and feel badly that you accuse such thinking as a “Rabbit Hole”. 

 

 The Traveler

Edited April 12, 2018 by Traveler

[The Folk Prophet]

26 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I am sorry - It appears to me that you are deliberately trying to provoke – especially with comments like “Mr. Rabbit Hole”. 

What does "trying to provoke" mean?

I am deliberately trying to point out that your approach here is going down a rabbit hole. You are adding words to my questions which leads nowhere.

I suppose that's meant to "provoke" you to think further about it.

28 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Since I am not sure how to respond to such comments only to say I believe such speech appears to me to have hurtful intent unbecoming a Saint, “standing for the right”.

Right. And implying that I'm not a saint but a hurtful jerk who's failing to stand up for the right isn't hurtful or unbecoming a saint in any way.

We could go in circles all day if you like I suppose.

You get to imply nasty things about me but can't handle anything you take as a nasty implication about you? Except, of course, my "Mr. Rabbit Hole" comment was meant to be humorous based on a previous exchange, and meant to imply your thoughts weren't necessarily leading to logical useful conclusion, which isn't so nasty after all, but legitimate discourse sans chip-on-the-shoulder-snowflakery, whereas you are outright telling me what a horrible person I am?

I'll grant the snarky pointing to all the question marks was a bit...snarky. But really --- I asked a question and you responded by asking if I was calling you a liar. I was, granted, poking some fun. It was meant to be fun. That you are taking it so badly --- not my expectation. Perhaps that was naive of me.

37 minutes ago, Traveler said:

My comment was that "some things" can only be learned by experience.   I believe the spirit does confirm the truth of all good things that are true – but I do not believe that spirit can teach what a person is unwilling to experience.  So yes, I still believe that some (not all) things can only be learned by experience.

This is the answer to the only thing I was asking.

I don't know that I agree, but maybe. It's hard to say. The Savior learned and understood all our sins, trials, pains, etc., without directly experiencing them. I mean He didn't literally have to sin to understand the pain of our sinning.

Hard to say.

41 minutes ago, Traveler said:

And Yes!!!! I do regret and feel badly that you accuse such thinking as a “Rabbit Hole”. 

I don't. What I think the rabbit hole was, in this case (whatever that's really meant to mean), was injecting the idea of "never" into my questions, which twisted the meaning of what I was asking. It was the taking of offense at my questions as if I were calling you a liar. That's the rabbit hole.