Are differences in IQ a reflection of pre-mortal attainment?

[LePeel]

I've been reflecting on the differences in IQ between individuals and differences in average IQ between races. For example, the average IQ of Sub-Saharan Africans is 70, whereas the a average IQ of East Asians is 105. What about the pygmy people? Theirs is 54. What are the implications of these differences for the Plan of Salvation? 

Does a high IQ indicate a person increased to a greater degree in pre-mortality? Is IQ the manifestation of something in the spirit? Or do you think IQ is unconnected to the spirit? 

This is NOT a question of does IQ = morality/spirituality. Its a question of is IQ a flesh and blood reflection of a spirit's "mental capacity" or degree of increase.

[Overwatch]

Yes and No. We are able to retain talents learned in pre-mortal life. Some even qualify as Gods even before being born into mortality such as Jesus and the Holy Ghost. There are spiritual power houses in disabled and handicapped bodies. Some cultures emphasize education while others don't. There are geniuses in ALL races. 

[MarginOfError]

This isn't a reasonable question to ask. IQ measures a person's ability to find patterns in chaos. An individual who lives in a location without access to standardized education is not likely to perform well on the tests without the opportunity to practice the skill set these tests were designed to measure.

Note also that IQ only measures a very specific set of abilities. Where I work, we have a large staff of technicians that maintain our fleet of miniaturized gas chromatographs. These are fickle machines that require some specialized care. While I have an abnormally high IQ, I completely lack the ability to perform even standard maintenance on these things. Yet, our technicians, many of whom have panic attacks when given addition problems, tear these things apart and put them back together without blinking.

So IQ probably has less to do with premortal state than it does with mortal opportunity.

[CV75]

8 hours ago, LePeel said:

I've been reflecting on the differences in IQ between individuals and differences in average IQ between races. For example, the average IQ of Sub-Saharan Africans is 70, whereas the a average IQ of East Asians is 105. What about the pygmy people? Theirs is 54. What are the implications of these differences for the Plan of Salvation? 

Does a high IQ indicate a person increased to a greater degree in pre-mortality? Is IQ the manifestation of something in the spirit? Or do you think IQ is unconnected to the spirit? 

This is NOT a question of does IQ = morality/spirituality. Its a question of is IQ a flesh and blood reflection of a spirit's "mental capacity" or degree of increase.

I would say absolutely not. "IQ" is derived from human-devised (and therefore subjective, fallen-world, and culture/tradition -influenced) standardized tests. All things being equal, the same person would score high on a test developed under his "home" criteria and score low on another test developed under "foreign" criteria. There are also many forms and areas of intelligence, and someone who is quite smart under one set or circumstances can be quite stupid under another.

That said, I believe the differences between individuals certainly existed before and will after this life, but the commonality is that, through the Atonement of Christ, we each came here with the same potential and opportunity to return to Heavenly father's presence.

[Fether]

9 hours ago, LePeel said:

I've been reflecting on the differences in IQ between individuals and differences in average IQ between races. For example, the average IQ of Sub-Saharan Africans is 70, whereas the a average IQ of East Asians is 105. What about the pygmy people? Theirs is 54. What are the implications of these differences for the Plan of Salvation? 

Does a high IQ indicate a person increased to a greater degree in pre-mortality? Is IQ the manifestation of something in the spirit? Or do you think IQ is unconnected to the spirit? 

This is NOT a question of does IQ = morality/spirituality. Its a question of is IQ a flesh and blood reflection of a spirit's "mental capacity" or degree of increase.

As mentioned above, IQ is only a measurement of one aspect of intelligence.

If you are wondering if a pre-disposition to learn can be passed from premortality, I believe the answer is yes. All our spirits do not all come to earth equal. Many of us have developed great habits and traits in pre earth life that pass on to this life while others did not.

[omegaseamaster75]

12 hours ago, Overwatch said:

Yes and No. We are able to retain talents learned in pre-mortal life. Some even qualify as Gods even before being born into mortality such as Jesus and the Holy Ghost. There are spiritual power houses in disabled and handicapped bodies. Some cultures emphasize education while others don't. There are geniuses in ALL races. 

This is pure speculation, aside from Jesus we don't really know how our interactions in the premortal life effects who or what we are in this life. (exception we didn't side with Satan)

[Overwatch]

36 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

This is pure speculation, aside from Jesus we don't really know how our interactions in the premortal life effects who or what we are in this life. (exception we didn't side with Satan)

It is not speculation. With Patriarchal blessings you have the chance  of increasing your knowledge of who you were and are currently. You may not know who YOU are, I suggest you take some time to do so. If you lack wisdom and you cannot find the answer who do you need to go to?  You know the answer. 

[Vort]

I am not at all sold on the utility of IQ tests, which do not actually measure IQ, but rather measure how well someone performs on the IQ test. This is true of any test, of course; the test measures how well you perform on it, and you have to count on there being a close correlation between the test and what it claims to be measuring.

For example, I might give you a "fishing test" that consists of naming different kinds of lures. Is that a fishing test? In a way, sure it is. But if your "fishing test" is supposed to measure how well you catch fish, then naming types of lures isn't very closely correlated. A better test might be to give you a rod and reel and have you catch some fish. That does not test your overall ability to fish, of course; it tests only your ability to catch fish ON THIS DAY IN THIS LOCATION USING THIS TACKLE AND EQUIPMENT. Still, I bet there's a far tighter correlation between fishing ability and the latter fishing test than the former.

IQ tests are a special animal, because "IQ" is such a unique (read: absurd) concept. The reasoning goes something like this:

"(1) Some people are smarter than others.
"(2) This 'smartness' is a monolithic thing that some people have lots of, some have a little of, and some seem to lack altogether.
"(3) 'Smartness' is an innate and unchangeable quantity that you receive from your ancestry.
"(4) If we can measure 'smartness' in people, we can stack-rank them, and in principle make a single line of people that go from smartest to stupidest, by assigning them an integer number between about 30 and about 170, with a score of 100 being defined as the mean (or perhaps the median) score of some test we provide (defined in the next sentence).
"(5) We can test 'smartness' by giving people an IQ test, written or perhaps verbal, that consists of puzzle-solving and word-parsing.
"(6) We can reliably correlate this test to 'smartness' by observing that people who do well on our IQ test tend also to do well in school and in certain occupations that require advanced abilities in mathematics, logic, or some other area that needs 'smart' people."

Can anyone see any problems with the above six rules? Better yet, can anyone not see any problems with the above rules? Literally every sentence is speculative (2. 3. 5), tautological/circular (1, 6), or hopelessly dependent on the implied definitions given by itself and preceding sentences (4).

It has been observed that some races do worse on IQ tests than others. Putting aside for the moment the fact that the very term "IQ test" is presumptuous and misleading, what does this mean? The statement is unsupported, or outright fails, on several levels.

Background is an obvious point. Suppose, for example, that an IQ test asks a logic question that has to do with a father doing something or other. If a child taking the test has no father in the home and, in fact, knows few people who do, will s/he even understand the question appropriately? Suppose a question is asked about a boat. Will the child who has literally never seen a boat in real life, much less have any experience with one, process the question? Suppose a question is asked about a person who wants to help a loved one. Will the child who has rarely seen such actions modeled in real life immediately grasp what the question is asking, or will s/he sit in confusion, not even grasping the social principles underlying the question?

Consider culture. What if a child has been raised in an anti-intellectual culture where logic itself is seen as an objectionable and cowardly exercise, something to be spurned and mocked when seen? Such a child might well have innate logical abilities well above average, but would be loath to demonstrate them.

But, you may object, what have these to do with race? Granted, they appear to be race-independent at first glance. But any American knows perfectly well that urban society, and especially black (African-American) urban society, suffers from high rates of father absence and an openly racist attitude against "acting white" -- which certainly appears to include any sort of academic excellence. Is this a consequence of genetic "race", or is it a long-standing social problem that is mutating into newer, uglier forms every decade? It might not be possible for us to separate the two.

And we haven't even touched on the naive and certainly oversimplified (if not ridiculous) assumption that "smartness" is a monolithic quantity that some people have lots of and others have less of. Suppose for a moment that there really is a measurable, significant racial component to some aspects of "smartness". (I don't want to use the word "intelligence", which for an LDS audience has a much deeper meaning.) Let us pretend that the average person of Race X tests with an IQ of 70. That's two full standard deviations below the norm, meaning that 95% of the Race X population has an IQ of less than 100. Only the top 1% of members of Race X would test at the moderately smart IQ level of 115. (@MarginOfError can correct any statistics-related mistakes I make.) Are we then justified in concluding that most members of Race X are just dumb and incapable of holding jobs or positions of responsibility that require advanced thinking ability? I would suggest not. In such a case -- if we actually believed the rather far-fetched assumptions I gave -- we might tentatively conclude that we aren't going to have many rocket scientists from Race X, because rocket science (and many other engineering fields) require exactly that sort of reasoning ability. But other important or technical areas may not. Leadership, for example, requires level-headedness, good judgment, the ability to see things as they are, and a gift for reading people correctly. You can hire some technical guy to advise you on science- or engineering-related areas. A member of our hypothetical Race X might be a fine team leader, CEO, or even POTUS, as long as s/he surrounded himself/herself with advisers that helped fill in his/her deficiencies. Hey, that's just like a team leader, CEO, or POTUS of any other race.

The objections go far beyond these. I am confident that if you Google something like "IQ test reliability", you will find many thousands of pages of discussion on the topic. Many of those pages will be sociological foolishness, of course, but there will be pearls to sift from the sewage. I have recently been learning (thanks to my son) a little bit about how our cell mechanisms regulate genetic expression. I have been introduced to histones (in feminism, hertones), gene regulators that (while I was still in grad school) were mostly considered "genetic filler", but which in fact play a profound and absolutely crucial role in gene expression. At this moment, their operation is still not well-understood. Is it possible that the actions of histones and other genetic regulators can be modified from generation to generation, based on external environmental conditions? Is it therefore possible that members of Race X, who currently test low on an IQ test, might in just a few generations start testing much higher, perhaps well above the 100 average? Sure it's possible. We don't know how such things work. To essentially cast of entire families or races of human beings because they don't appear to "measure up" by our current measuring standards is unthinkable.

As for gospel applications of this idea: There are none, not that I can see. God has said that human beings are his children. Even if you suppose that Race X is just dumber than Race Y, I don't see that that actually means anything. As long as Race X members are children of God, salvation and exaltation is meant for them.

Edited August 22, 2018 by Vort

[Guest MormonGator]

3 minutes ago, Vort said:

I am not at all sold on the utility of IQ tests, which do not actually measure IQ, but rather measure how well someone performs on the IQ test.

Bing, bing, bing. We have a winner folks! 

Agree 100% with @Vort

Edited August 22, 2018 by MormonGator

[Traveler]

@LePeelI suggest you read Moroni Chapter 10 (the whole chapter) very carefully.  We all have been given gifts - a genus (or smarts) if you will.  Like talents (in the scripture parable) we should use (invest) our gifts for the benefit of others.  That I believe, is the real test of mortal IQ.

 

The Traveler

[Anddenex]

3 hours ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

This is pure speculation, aside from Jesus we don't really know how our interactions in the premortal life effects who or what we are in this life. (exception we didn't side with Satan)

This isn't "pure" speculation at all. He provided two examples of those who did Jesus and the Holy Ghost, both being a member of the Godhead (which means Godhood).  If Christ was able to, and the Holy Ghost was able to, it stands with reason that others could have also.

Speculation would be saying who obtained such, such that if @Overwatch would say Adam obtained Godhood before, this would be speculation. The notion of people obtaining Godhood, as a principle, isn't speculation, its a truth.

EDIT: In light of this, Joseph Smith at one point made a very intriguing statement, "Joseph Smith was foreordained to this important calling. He was also somewhat conscious of this foreordination because he once said, “Would to God, brethren, I could tell you who I am! Would to God I could tell you what I know! But you would call it blasphemy, and there are men upon this stand who would want to take my life.” (Orson F. Whitney, Life of Heber C. Kimball, p. 322.)" (Source)

Who was Joseph Smith (pre-existence) and why would the knowledge cause people to want to take his life?

Edited August 22, 2018 by Anddenex

[Grunt]

7 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

This isn't "pure" speculation at all. He provided two examples of those who did Jesus and the Holy Ghost, both being a member of the Godhead (which means Godhood).  If Christ was able to, and the Holy Ghost was able to, it stands with reason that others could have also.

Speculation would be saying who obtained such, such that if @Overwatch would say Adam obtained Godhood before, this would be speculation. The notion of people obtaining Godhood, as a principle, isn't speculation, its a truth.

The Christ was Heavenly Father's ONLY begotten Son.  The Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit.  

[Anddenex]

1 minute ago, Grunt said:

The Christ was Heavenly Father's ONLY begotten Son.  The Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit.  

We don't have disagreement Grunt, so not sure what aspect of my statement you are responding to.

[Grunt]

5 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

We don't have disagreement Grunt, so not sure what aspect of my statement you are responding to.

Just clarifying.  As proof of persons being born into mortality qualified as "gods" The Christ and Holy Ghost were offered as examples.  One is the ONLY exception, per scripture, and the other wasn't born into mortality.  

Edited August 22, 2018 by Grunt

[Anddenex]

2 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Just clarifying.  As proof of persons being born into mortality qualified as "gods" The Christ and Holy Ghost were offered as examples.  One is the ONLY exception, per scripture, and the other wasn't born into mortality.  

Maybe I am reading @Overwatch's comment incorrectly. I would say from his comment that he agrees also with what you are saying. His comment reflects "qualifying" as Gods before coming to earth in mortality. We know of two for sure -- Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost. We know the Holy Ghost is still a personage of spirit, which doesn't negate that the Holy Ghost is a God before coming to this earth as he is already a member of the Godhead.

Christ is the ONLY begotten son. The Holy Ghost will still be a member of the Godhead even when he takes upon himself flesh; even if he is not a begotten son of the Father. He doesn't loose his status as a member of the Godhead the moment he is born. He will be still who he was, and will eventually become like the Father through the atonement of Jesus Christ -- without question.

But maybe we are talking over each other with clarification?

 

[Overwatch]

11 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Just clarifying.  As proof of persons being born into mortality qualified as "gods" The Christ and Holy Ghost were offered as examples.  One is the ONLY exception, per scripture, and the other wasn't born into mortality.  

The Holy Ghost is a God. He will get his body during the millennium of peace if I remember correctly. He is a member of the Godhead and has already attained to that position by his love and obedience to God our Father. 

[Grunt]

9 minutes ago, Overwatch said:

The Holy Ghost is a God. He will get his body during the millennium of peace if I remember correctly. He is a member of the Godhead and has already attained to that position by his love and obedience to God our Father. 

What scripture did you get that from?

[zil]

2 hours ago, Vort said:

I am not at all sold on the utility of IQ tests, which do not actually measure IQ, but rather measure how well someone performs on the IQ test.

This is true of any test, of course; the test measures how well you perform on it, and you have to count on there being a close correlation between the test and what it claims to be measuring.  ...

Wow.  That sounded really smart.

 

 

[Vort]

2 minutes ago, zil said:

Wow.  That sounded really smart. 

I'm all about IQ tests, sister.

Actually, Sister Vort's PhD studies were on testing methodologies. I learned more about testing from talking with her than I ever knew in my whole life to that point.

[Overwatch]

23 minutes ago, Grunt said:

What scripture did you get that from?

At the simplest answer without me looking up reference. He is part of the Godhead. God The Father, God The Son and God The Holy Ghost. They all witness of each other and are one in purpose. Feel free to do your own search. 

[Grunt]

Just now, Overwatch said:

At the simplest answer without me looking up reference. He is part of the Godhead. God The Father, God The Son and God The Holy Ghost. They all witness of each other and are one in purpose. Feel free to do your own search. 

I can't find any reference to the Holy Ghost being a "god" or receiving a body during the millennium.  I'm asking you to show me where you find that reference.  

[Overwatch]

1 minute ago, Grunt said:

I can't find any reference to the Holy Ghost being a "god" or receiving a body during the millennium.  I'm asking you to show me where you find that reference.  

At the moment I am doing something else but I feel as though it might benefit you to do your OWN research brother. Like getting your gear ready for mission. Fill your lamp. 😄

[Grunt]

1 minute ago, Overwatch said:

At the moment I am doing something else but I feel as though it might benefit you to do your OWN research brother. Like getting your gear ready for mission. Fill your lamp. 😄

Thanks.  I'll wait.  As I said, my research turns up nothing.  

[zil]

1 minute ago, Vort said:

I'm all about IQ tests, sister.

Apparently I took an IQ test at some point prior to 9th grade.  When they told me that (at the start of 9th grade), I had no recollection of taking an IQ test, so I assume it was done on the sly, like they didn't want us to know we were taking such a test.  I think I tried an online one a few years ago and it showed that I had gotten slightly stupider, but apparently it was too little, too late.  And I went and took one just now.  It looks like my smartness is about the same.  If third time is a charm, it appears to be a bad luck charm.

Meanwhile, my snarkitude is also unchanged.  Signs seem to indicate I'm unchanging.  In a bad way.  Excuse me, I need to go print out my daily logic puzzles now.

[Guest MormonGator]

I love this quote.