Apostle’s wives

[Shrinks]

Hi my brother is going to marry a girl that has been married twice before with 2 kids. She struggled a lot with a broken family and inactivity. 

I’m a little worried about him marrying her, I was just curious. Has anyone ever heard of an apostle of general authority marrying a woman that has been married before or had a promiscuous past? I know it’s a long shot, but it’d be comforting to know that leaders of the church have taken the risk before.

Edited September 18, 2018 by Shrinks
title misspelled

[NeuroTypical]

I'm having a hard time understanding how we'd know one way or the other.  Folks past sins making them unworthy of marriage is the stuff of gossip, and gossip is a pretty horrible sin - I don't see any apostles lining up to gossip about their wives.  

Humans live in a fallen state, and can repent of past sins and live righteous clean lives free of the burdens of sins.  That's as true for your brother's girlfriend as it is for apostles wives. 

We don't know anything about your brother or this girl, so we can't really say anything about their specific circumstances.

[Vort]

11 hours ago, Shrinks said:

Hi my brother is going to marry a girl that has been married twice before with 2 kids. She struggled a lot with a broken family and inactivity. 

I’m a little worried about him marrying her, I was just curious. Has anyone ever heard of an apostle of general authority marrying a woman that has been married before or had a promiscuous past? I know it’s a long shot, but it’d be comforting to know that leaders of the church have taken the risk before.

I understand your concern, and I don't blame you. But keep in mind that relationships between human beings are not like ownership of used cars or old houses. An individual human being is infinitely precious, worth much more than this planet we live on. We must never allow ourselves to gauge other people like we might examine a horse or an automobile or a piece of property we were thinking about acquiring.

That said, you're a fool if you go into a relationship with your eyes shut. In this case, that's your brother's call, not yours. Worrying (privately) about him is fine, but your duty is to support and love him.

To answer your question, I know that in the early history of the Church, during the polygamy days, the brethren did sometimes marry women whose husbands had left them or who had left their husbands. I don't think that really has anything to do with your brother's situation, though. If people can overcome their painful and often damaging experiences in life, they can achieve true greatness. This applies as much to your brother's fiancée as it does to him, or to you, or me, or anyone else.

[anatess2]

Asking about apostle's wives is a weird question in gauging your brother's future success.  Any other wife - apostle or not - has zero relevance to your brother's fiancee. 

Success of a statistical group of 3rd marriages would be more relevant - and at that, only so far as the group is involved and not as an individual (yes yes, it becomes a problem when you bend over backwards to see yourself as the exception to the statistical fact).  In any case, your brother is the only one who can gauge whether his fiancee has overcome the faults of the first 2 marriages so that he would avoid being a statistic.  Because, unfortunately, 3rd marriages have a 73% statistical chance of ending in divorce.  No amount of apostles' wives can change your brother or his fiancee's unique circumstances.  You can advice him on the matter - especially the risks involved - but using other wives, including apostles' wives to support you on the matter is a bad approach.

[zil]

I don't think @Shrinks was looking for justification or probabilities.  He was hoping that if an apostle¹ had married a woman in a similar situation, then perhaps said apostle had made public statements which included counsel for someone else entering into the same situation which Shrinks could give to his brother, thereby helping said brother to know what to do to improve the quality of his pending marriage, and reduce risks of divorce.

¹Likely specified for two reasons: (1) the apostle probably had a successful marriage, and (2) there's more likely to be publicly available advice on the topic from an apostle than from John Q. Member.

I don't know of any such material, Shrinks, but in the end, I think any material related to marriage is probably just as helpful - at the end of the day, your brother and his new wife have their own marriage to manage, their own unique personalities and trials, and the magic bullets for their situation are the same as any - forgiveness, patience, charity, and all other Christlike virtues.  Best wishes for your brother and his bride.

Edited September 18, 2018 by zil

[classylady]

14 hours ago, Shrinks said:

Hi my brother is going to marry a girl that has been married twice before with 2 kids. She struggled a lot with a broken family and inactivity. 

I’m a little worried about him marrying her, I was just curious. Has anyone ever heard of an apostle of general authority marrying a woman that has been married before or had a promiscuous past? I know it’s a long shot, but it’d be comforting to know that leaders of the church have taken the risk before.

 As an apostle, President Howard W. Hunter, remarried in 1990 about 7 years after his first wife had died.  He married a divorced woman, Inis Egan. Inis had been divorced since 1966 and had three children from her previous relationship.  From what President Hunter wrote in his journal, they were very happy together.

[mordorbund]

15 hours ago, Shrinks said:

Has anyone ever heard of an apostle of general authority marrying a woman that has been married before or had a promiscuous past?

Has anyone mention Hosea?

I'll see myself out.

[mdfxdb]

17 hours ago, Shrinks said:

Hi my brother is going to marry a girl that has been married twice before with 2 kids. She struggled a lot with a broken family and inactivity. 

I’m a little worried about him marrying her, I was just curious. Has anyone ever heard of an apostle of general authority marrying a woman that has been married before or had a promiscuous past? I know it’s a long shot, but it’d be comforting to know that leaders of the church have taken the risk before.

Your brother needs to be sure he is going into this with eyes wide open.  Anyone who has been twice divorced with two kids has by definition struggled with broken families, because they have two of them behind them.  Statistically it will be difficult for him to make a successful marriage.  A lot of it depends on the circumstances of her prior relationships and her role in the divorces.  

How having an Apostle of Christ go through the same experience is irrelevant, simply because statistically it is almost impossible to make a success of this.  If an apostle made it successful, well all I can say is I hope your brother is an apostle.  

[Just_A_Guy]

Parley Pratt married a divorcee. 

The woman’s ex-husband killed him in a child custody dispute.

Edited September 19, 2018 by Just_A_Guy

[zil]

2 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Parley Pratt married a divorcee. 

The woman’s ex-husband killed him in a child custody dispute.

Well, that's encouraging.

[Just_A_Guy]

1 hour ago, zil said:

Well, that's encouraging.

Well, my sunny disposition is the only reason @pam hasn’t banned me yet.

[Lost Boy]

12 hours ago, mordorbund said:

Has anyone mention Hosea?

I'll see myself out.

I was going to mention that as well. I know it is a story of the relationship between the lord and Israel, but I really think that modern day could use it as well. 

How many wives have divorced a husband for looking at porn? How many couples have split up due to infidelity?  The lord forgave Israel whenever they came back, but we as modern people have a huge issue with forgiveness. 

I could have divorced my wife for what she did, but I am truly grateful that I took a different path. I almost feel like a newlywed right now. 

Forgiveness is a powerful concept. In the case of the op's question, forgiveness shouldn't play a role in deciding to marry a divorced woman, but it is similar in that you are not holding someone's past against them. 

The lord loves us regardless.... Why should we be any different with those we decide to marry? 

[mordorbund]

9 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Well, my sunny disposition is the only reason @pam hasn’t banned me yet.

New avatar:

[Chilean]

5 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

How many wives have divorced a husband for looking at porn? How many couples have split up due to infidelity?

I'm one of those! I divorced my ex for exactly those 2 reasons.  Now I'm happily married to my new husband of over 2 years, and we just married in the temple last June.

You mentioned forgiveness. Forgiveness is sooooo powerful, it can help heal broken hearts! I'm grateful my ex and I can be in the same room together, he and his girlfriend have been in our home a few times visiting our kids.  My husband and I wish for my ex to put his life in order and go back to church as he's been inactive since about our divorce, and we know coming back to Church would bring happiness and joy to his life, but at this moment he's just comfortable in the world. But we wish him the best, and he's always welcome in our home. All because of forgiveness.

Edited September 19, 2018 by Chilean

[Vort]

14 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Parley Pratt married a divorcee. 

The woman’s ex-husband killed him in a child custody dispute.

Somehow, that never made it into his autobiography.

[Latter-Day Marriage]

On 9/18/2018 at 4:36 PM, mordorbund said:

Has anyone mention Hosea?

I'll see myself out.

You beat me to it.

The real question that should be asked here is: Is she still the same kind of person who would do those kinds of things?.  If she had repented and had that mighty change of heart then she desires righteousness and finds her past actions abhorrent.  It would be wrong to hold her past against her after she has overcome it.  He is not marrying who she was, he is marrying who she is right now.

Now her past may result in some consequences in her life that he would have to accept (for example, those children) but if he loves her enough to take on those challenges then more power to him. 

[Latter-Day Marriage]

14 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

Forgiveness is a powerful concept. In the case of the op's question, forgiveness shouldn't play a role in deciding to marry a divorced woman, but it is similar in that you are not holding someone's past against them. 

The lord loves us regardless.... Why should we be any different with those we decide to marry? 

How much you can forgive somebody tells how much you love them.

[Vort]

On 9/19/2018 at 4:43 PM, Latter-Day Marriage said:

It would be wrong to hold her past against her after she has overcome it.

When talking about marriage, I completely disagree.

• What if her past resulted in her having an incurable STD like AIDS?
• What if her past made her really physically ugly and missing all of her teeth?
• What if her past gave her really strong BO and repulsive breath?
• What if her past made her brain-damaged so that she couldn't really hold a job or run a household?
• What if her past left her perfectly pure in spirit, yet totally unaccountable for her violent actions?

I believe that people are justified in refusing to marry whomever they don't want to marry, regardless of the reason. The reason may be stupid. They themselves may be stupid for choosing as they do. But they are justified in doing so, because you get to decide whom you don't want to marry, for any old reason that you consider sufficient.

If blond hair, acne, weight, financial status, and body odor are sufficient reasons not to marry someone, then certainly so is past sexual history, past failures at marriage, or other (frankly much more relevant) problems a person might have had in the past, whether or not you think she might have repented of them.

Edited September 22, 2018 by Vort

[Latter-Day Marriage]

2 hours ago, Vort said:

When talking about marriage, I completely disagree.

• What if her past resulted in her having an incurable SDT like AIDS?
• What if her past made her really physically ugly and missing all of her teeth?
• What if her past gave her really strong BO and repulsive breath?
• What if her past made her brain-damaged so that she couldn't really hold a job or run a household?
• What if her past left her perfectly pure in spirit, yet totally unaccountable for her violent actions?

Those situations go to what I said about him having to decide if he loves her enough to take on the challenges resulting from her past. If a guy decides he would rather break up with a girl with AIDS than marry her and deal with that challenge, he should do that.  But that isn't the same thing as leaving her because she had a sinful past, it is leaving her because of her present medical condition and how that would affect the marriage if they did wed.

Edited September 20, 2018 by Latter-Day Marriage

[Vort]

59 minutes ago, Latter-Day Marriage said:

Those situations go to what I said about him having to decide if he loves her enough to take on the challenges resulting from her past. If a guy decides he would rather break up with a girl with AIDS than marry her and deal with that challenge, he should do that.  But that isn't the same thing as leaving her because she had a sinful past, it is leaving her because of her present medical condition and how that would affect the marriage if they did wed.

So let me make sure I understand you correctly:

• If a man doesn't want to marry a woman because she has crooked teeth or a medical condition he doesn't want to deal with, that is a morally acceptable judgment for him to make.
• If a man doesn't want to marry a woman because she was involved in fornications in her past or has two (2) (3-1) failed marriages behind her, that man stands guilty before the Lord of passing an unrighteous judgment.

Do I have this right?

[Guest]

On 9/17/2018 at 11:45 PM, Shrinks said:

Hi my brother is going to marry a girl that has been married twice before with 2 kids. She struggled a lot with a broken family and inactivity. 

I’m a little worried about him marrying her, I was just curious. Has anyone ever heard of an apostle of general authority marrying a woman that has been married before or had a promiscuous past? I know it’s a long shot, but it’d be comforting to know that leaders of the church have taken the risk before.

Like many others, I have no idea why apostle's marriages would be part of the discussion.  Others have mentioned whether the divorcee is the problem.  But there's mor to it than that.  Here's what I told my BIL after his divorce.

I know that this divorce was not your fault.  You did everything you could to keep this together, including forgiving her for her breaking her covenants.  You are an amazing person.  I don't know your fiancee very well.  But if you have done your due diligence, I'm sure she's an amazing person.  It doesn't matter.  The fact is that you're divorced.  With that comes specific baggage.  You HAVE to deal with that. She does not.  If at any time things get too tough, she can just walk away.  That is the real reason why second marriages don't have the success rate of first marriages.

What I didn't know at the time was that she (the fiancee) was getting advice from her older brother.  He, himself, married a divorcee with a child.  He did his due diligence.  He accepted that she was a suitable woman to marry.  He also understood and accepted the additional baggage that came with her history (i.e. her dead beat ex husband).  He told his sister,"You need to be prepared for the reality that you're really going to be married to this woman as well as your husband for the next 16 years."  They had a then 2 year old child.  She got that advice and prepared herself for that reality.

So far, their marriage has been very happy.  It is not without the difficulties we all knew would be there.  But they're both willing to make the sacrifices to make it work.

[Latter-Day Marriage]

 

21 hours ago, Vort said:

So let me make sure I understand you correctly:

• If a man doesn't want to marry a woman because she has crooked teeth or a medical condition he doesn't want to deal with, that is a morally acceptable judgment for him to make.
• If a man doesn't want to marry a woman because she was involved in fornications in her past or has two (2) (3-1) failed marriages behind her, that man stands guilty before the Lord of passing an unrighteous judgment.

Do I have this right?

No, you have it wrong.  If he doesn't love her enough to gladly take on whatever changes go hand in hand with marrying her as a result of who she is and what her circumstances currently are, then he should not marry her (because he doesn't love her as a husband should).  If his reasons are shallow and superficial then she is better off without him too.

But to reject somebody only because of what they USED TO BE when they are no longer that kind of person is hard hearted and unforgiving.  The attitude of 'I've kept the LoC so I deserve a virgin spouse and won't 'settle' for something less' is not Christ like at all.

Those are not mutually exclusive situation though, a person could be fully forgiving of somebody's past, but still have reasons about the current state of things that make them decide not to marry the person.

[Guest MormonGator]

51 minutes ago, Latter-Day Marriage said:

But to reject somebody only because of what they USED TO BE when they are no longer that kind of person is hard hearted and unforgiving.  The attitude of 'I've kept the LoC so I deserve a virgin spouse and won't 'settle' for something less' is not Christ like at all.

It may not be Christ like, but if either a man or a woman has had two divorces, there is a very good chance they'll have three. Do you want to be that third? 
 

[Latter-Day Marriage]

41 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

It may not be Christ like, but if either a man or a woman has had two divorces, there is a very good chance they'll have three. Do you want to be that third? 
 

There is always a chance of divorce.  In a case like that I would say try and ascertain as best as you can why those marriages failed, what was her role in it if any, and has she changed since then in a way that would make her less likely to repeat any bad pattern from the first two.  Context is important.  If those two divorces were before she joined the church for example, and she has for years lived as a faithful member with a real testimony her past divorces might not be so relevant.

[Guest MormonGator]

11 hours ago, Latter-Day Marriage said:

There is always a chance of divorce

Yes, and the chances skyrocket with each prior divorce. 

11 hours ago, Latter-Day Marriage said:

  In a case like that I would say try and ascertain as best as you can why those marriages failed, what was her role in it if any, and has she changed since then in a way that would make her less likely to repeat any bad pattern from the first two.  

But...she obviously hasn't changed.  One divorce could be bad luck or bad circumstances. Two divorces, it's time to look inward. Three divorces-you are the problem 100%. 

11 hours ago, Latter-Day Marriage said:

 Context is important.  If those two divorces were before she joined the church for example, and she has for years lived as a faithful member with a real testimony her past divorces might not be so relevant.

Perhaps, but it's still a red flag.