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35 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Church youtube video on the new handbook:

 

I was curious about what the new changes meant and this video answered the questions I had. Watching revelation unfold, even seemingly minor revelations, is always amazing to me and I am grateful the firm hand of Christ is always at the wheel.

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So, a couple things I noticed that were new to me (not sure if they constitute “changes” or just stuff I never noticed before):

—Adultery is not an automatic membership council trigger.

—Neither is gay sex, or entering into a gay marriage.

—Lots of details on dealing with transgender members.

—A “moral issue” policy directed at intersex/gender-ambiguous members

—A “moral issue” policy re FGM is stated as “forthcoming”.

—Ongoing porn use *can* trigger a membership council if it is so intense as to create serious family harm (for some reason I thought prior guidance was that it was grounds for discipline but not for full excommunication).

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5 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

So, a couple things I noticed that were new to me (not sure if they constitute “changes” or just stuff I never noticed before):

—Adultery is not an automatic membership council trigger.

—Neither is gay sex, or entering into a gay marriage.

—Lots of details on dealing with transgender members.

—A “moral issue” policy directed at intersex/gender-ambiguous members

—A “moral issue” policy re FGM is stated as “forthcoming”.

—Ongoing porn use *can* trigger a membership council if it is so intense as to create serious family harm (for some reason I thought prior guidance was that it was grounds for discipline but not for full excommunication).

What’s FGM?

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22 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

—Adultery is not an automatic membership council trigger.

—Neither is gay sex, or entering into a gay marriage.

I'm surprised by this.  I'm not critisizing the handbook; only surprised by it.

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11 hours ago, MarginOfError said:

Well, sorta kinda. I never met anyone worth taking seriously that didn't think the intent behind gender was anything other than sex. 

Quite frankly, the policies regarding tramsgenderism laid out in this version of the handbook are everything a liberal member of the Church could ask for so long as the restriction of male priesthood remains in place. These policies leave open a lot of questions about the nature and eternal ramifications of transgenderism simply by recognizing euphoria and refusing to take a stance on its origin.

The woman I was talking to, mother of a gay son and great ally to LGBT, etc., and in her words, “liberal Democrat” was very upset by the wording on transgenders and says it leaves them no choice but to leave the church. 🤷‍♀️

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10 hours ago, MormonGator said:

If they start playing the Dave Matthews Band I will become a hardcore atheist. 

Seriously, that's what happened to @Godless

😉

What!  How could you say such a thing.  Dave Matthews Band is my all time favorite........oh......that explains a lot about me.

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Observations in bold below

7 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

So, a couple things I noticed that were new to me (not sure if they constitute “changes” or just stuff I never noticed before):

—Adultery is not an automatic membership council trigger. It never was, unless you were a leader in a prominent position. Otherwise, it's always been listed in the "may require" category.

—Neither is gay sex was in the same category as adultery, or entering into a gay marriage. This part is new. Gay marriage was added to the required list (as an act of apostasy) in 2015, I believe.  It has now been moved to the may require list. More on "apostasy" below

—Ongoing porn use *can* trigger a membership council if it is so intense as to create serious family harm (for some reason I thought prior guidance was that it was grounds for discipline but not for full excommunication). In this 2010 handbook, this is listed under the section for when a disciplinary council is not necessary (though it is mentioned that "avoiding pornographic material" could be a condition of disfellowshipment, suggesting that actual practice was closer to the current guidance)

Also of note, "Apostasy" is no longer listed under conditions that require a disciplinary council. Instead, it is listed under "When the Stake President Counsels with the Area Presidency about Whether a Membership Council or Other Action Is Necessary." That's probably a good change, overall, as actions against apostasy will be more consistent and protected against "leadership roulette."

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1 hour ago, MarginOfError said:

Observations in bold below

Also of note, "Apostasy" is no longer listed under conditions that require a disciplinary council. Instead, it is listed under "When the Stake President Counsels with the Area Presidency about Whether a Membership Council or Other Action Is Necessary." That's probably a good change, overall, as actions against apostasy will be more consistent and protected against "leadership roulette."

I had a bishop on my mission (had since been released) that, when called, started running disciplinary counsels for all the inactive members. A member involved told me that he excommunicated 32 members due to apostasy in his first year.

He really was a great guy and incredibly intelligent when it came to scripture and church/religious history. He was just intense (in my view) of his application of scripture and prophetic revelation.

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14 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

Administrative policy book for all of the administrative-how-to-do-this stuff.  

The big "update" with it is that they took the old two books, and combined them into one online for everyone.  Honestly, it's not groundbreaking at all.   

Thank you!

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9 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

So, a couple things I noticed that were new to me (not sure if they constitute “changes” or just stuff I never noticed before):

—Adultery is not an automatic membership council trigger.

—Neither is gay sex, or entering into a gay marriage.

—Lots of details on dealing with transgender members.

—A “moral issue” policy directed at intersex/gender-ambiguous members

—A “moral issue” policy re FGM is stated as “forthcoming”.

—Ongoing porn use *can* trigger a membership council if it is so intense as to create serious family harm (for some reason I thought prior guidance was that it was grounds for discipline but not for full excommunication).

I thought entering into a gay marriage was an automatic disciplinary council? 

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55 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I thought entering into a gay marriage was an automatic disciplinary council? 

That was the wording of the Nov 2015 policy, which was then changed to may require in the Apr 2019 update to that policy.

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5 hours ago, carlimac said:

The woman I was talking to, mother of a gay son and great ally to LGBT, etc., and in her words, “liberal Democrat” was very upset by the wording on transgenders and says it leaves them no choice but to leave the church. 🤷‍♀️

Then to be frank, I think she's right. If the kingdom of God disallows practices that you absolutely must condone, then you don't belong in the kingdom of God. That's as true today as it will be at the final judgment.

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13 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

—Adultery is not an automatic membership council trigger.

As others have said, I don't think it was previously, unless you held a prominent position.

Quote

—Neither is gay sex, or entering into a gay marriage.

The homosex thing is ultimately a type of adultery/fornication, so I understand why that would not be an automatic membership council trigger. The homosexual "marriage" thing I don't understand. If contracting a homosexual "marriage" is not open apostasy, I'm not sure what is.

Edited by Vort

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32.6.4.1    Failure to Comply with Some Church Standards

A membership council is not held for the actions listed below.

  • Masturbation

I wish more members, especially youth, would read the section above. Perhaps they might more readily talk with their parents or their Bishop without the fear of their world completely crashing down upon them. I have always sympathized with overly worried youth, especially those looking to set masturbation aside but not feeling like there is anyone to talk to. In my experience, parents and Bishops deserve more credit, than they usually get, for being understanding and sympathetic.

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1 hour ago, Vort said:

As others have said, I don't think it was previously, unless you held a prominent position.

The homosex thing is ultimately a type of adultery/fornication, so I understand why that would not be an automatic membership council trigger. The homosexual "marriage" thing I don't understand. If contracting a homosexual "marriage" is not open apostasy, I'm not sure what is.

Agreed. 

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27 minutes ago, NeedleinA said:

In my experience, parents and Bishops deserve more credit, than they usually get, for being understanding and sympathetic.

I think most religious leaders of all types, from LDS bishops to Catholic priests to Lutheran pastors to Baptist ministers are much more compassionate and sympathetic then they are fire and brimstone. The overwhelming majority (I'm thinking 80-90%) understand that humans are sinful creatures in need of mercy and not screaming rage. In fact, if you (generic!) don't have the ability to be compassionate or sympathetic, going into the ministry is something you should strongly avoid.

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3 hours ago, MormonGator said:

I think most religious leaders of all types, from LDS bishops to Catholic priests to Lutheran pastors to Baptist ministers are much more compassionate and sympathetic then they are fire and brimstone. The overwhelming majority (I'm thinking 80-90%) understand that humans are sinful creatures in need of mercy and not screaming rage. In fact, if you (generic!) don't have the ability to be compassionate or sympathetic, going into the ministry is something you should strongly avoid.

I’ve read historians of both Brigham Young and Spencer W. Kimball observe that each man had a lot more patience for sinners in their private ministry, than what they displayed in their public rhetoric.  

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11 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I’ve read historians of both Brigham Young and Spencer W. Kimball observe that each man had a lot more patience for sinners in their private ministry, than what they displayed in their public rhetoric.  

I've read the same. I often wonder why the members of religions seem to be so much harsh, unforgiving and severe than the leaders are. 

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6 hours ago, Vort said:

Then to be frank, I think she's right. If the kingdom of God disallows practices that you absolutely must condone, then you don't belong in the kingdom of God. That's as true today as it will be at the final judgment.

Yep. One cannot abide a Celestial glory without being able to live Celestial laws.

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48 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I often wonder why the members of religions seem to be so much harsh, unforgiving and severe than the leaders are. 

Leaders 'often' = higher frequency of strong spiritual experiences, more repetitive gospel accurate training & the most important...the mantle/being set apart to that position.
There is a distinct difference between Gator the member and Bishop Gator. Gator is great, but Bishop Gator can do more, work harder, forgive easier, etc.
Most people, who honor their callings and have been set apart will tell you that they receive a extra heavy dose of compassion and love for those they serve.

Even semi-coarsened folks like myself can be softened.

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18 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

So, a couple things I noticed that were new to me (not sure if they constitute “changes” or just stuff I never noticed before):

—Adultery is not an automatic membership council trigger.

 

18 hours ago, Scott said:

I'm surprised by this.  I'm not critisizing the handbook; only surprised by it.

Even if it is not "required", I have never known a Bishop to have discovered Adultery that did not convene a disciplinary council within the week. It is still considered a serious sin, places multiple families in jeopardy, and is a deliberate and major offense against the laws of God.

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9 minutes ago, scottyg said:

Yep. One cannot abide a Celestial glory without being able to live Celestial laws.

And of course, we realize and freely grant that the kingdom of God on earth is not the celestial kingdom. It is God's kingdom in a fallen, telestial world. But as with the Word of Wisdom, there are some very basic ideas that any Saint must be able to abide. If following the Brethren's teachings on homosexuality really is just too difficult, then one likely does not belong in the kingdom of God, even the fallen version of it that we enjoy here in mortality.

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5 minutes ago, NeedleinA said:

Leaders 'often' = higher frequency of strong spiritual experiences, more repetitive gospel accurate training & the most important...the mantle/being set apart to that position.
There is a distinct difference between Gator the member and Bishop Gator. Gator is great, but Bishop Gator can do more, work harder, forgive easier, etc.
Most people, who honor their callings and have been set apart will tell you that they receive a extra heavy dose of compassion and love for those they serve.

Even semi-coarsened folks like myself can be softened.

I don't know. I think members also have incredibly intense spiritual experiences, and for all we know, sometimes they are more powerful ones than those in leadership. It might be based on personality. An abrasive, argumentative jerk can still have spiritual moments of great intensity, I guess. Even if they are nasty and unpleasant. 

I'm troubled by the thought of the person sitting in the front row who has the personality and compassion of our Savior, but because he isn't in leadership feels he isn't good enough. That does concern me a little. I think 99% of LDS are too hard on themselves.

Also, while having a calling and giving it everything might change you, it might not. After all, you are who you are. 

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22 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I don't know. I think members also have incredibly intense spiritual experiences, and for all we know, sometimes they are more powerful ones than those in leadership. It might be based on personality. An abrasive, argumentative jerk can still have spiritual moments of great intensity, I guess. Even if they are nasty and unpleasant. 

I'm troubled by the thought of the person sitting in the front row who has the personality and compassion of our Savior, but because he isn't in leadership feels he isn't good enough. That does concern me a little. I think 99% of LDS are too hard on themselves.

Also, while having a calling and giving it everything might change you, it might not. After all, you are who you are. 

Interesting.  I think many Saints aren't hard enough on themselves when it comes to following the Prophet or keeping their covenants.

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