Efficiency is good, but not at Church?

[NeedleinA]

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

The primary focus is and has always been each and every son and daughter of G-d rather than the easiest, quickest and most efficient way. 

Agreed, God's children come first. 
If God's children can be served and equally served in an efficient manner, why wouldn't we?
If not, it appears that the best way to serve God's children is only through inefficiency which seems to make no sense at all. 

Why don't wards only use one deacon to pass the sacrament each week? Think of the individual sacrifice that young man would be able to offer.  
Why are missionaries told to reduce door to door tracking? Surely tracking 60hrs a week has to bring forth 'fruit'. 
Why use a ward bulletin to convey information? Doesn't that deprive individuals from from sharing things one on one with each other?
Etc. 

(some silly examples, I know)

I just find it equal silly to associate the hardest, most time consuming and least efficient ways as the only successfully means to serve God and his children. 
 

[CV75]

14 hours ago, NeedleinA said:

Is this represented in the Church's Handbook, the need to 'receive offerings immediately' part?
If this is the case, should each member go to the Bishop's house, not wait until a Sunday and turn over their money immediately?

From 34.4, "Church leaders should teach members the principles of tithes and other offerings and encourage members to live these principles." The way this is done in relation to 34.4.1.3 would be the unit leader's call, and might be discussed in council if there is any question among the leadership as to how the Lord would have things done for that particular unit. 

[NeedleinA]

9 minutes ago, CV75 said:

The way this is done in relation to 34.4.1.3 would be the unit leader's call, and might be discussed in council

This is exactly where we find ourselves at right now.
We have unit leaders who are asking about the possibilities available to them, so in an effort to help Bishops we are discussing this in various councils/committees.

Quote

Leaders encourage members to pay tithing as they receive their income. However, members who wish to pay annually may do so.

The missing link in the way... is lack of 'immediate' aspect.
"immediately as they receive their income"??
Definitely not trying to pick a fight with anyone, but am looking for any concrete specifications/policy if possible. While some Bishops might like the, "Hey its up to you" approach, others would like to know some limitations and guidance.

[CV75]

47 minutes ago, NeedleinA said:

This is exactly where we find ourselves at right now.
We have unit leaders who are asking about the possibilities available to them, so in an effort to help Bishops we are discussing this in various councils/committees.

The missing link in the way... is lack of 'immediate' aspect.
"immediately as they receive their income"??
Definitely not trying to pick a fight with anyone, but am looking for any concrete specifications/policy if possible. While some Bishops might like the, "Hey its up to you" approach, others would like to know some limitations and guidance.

My personal take is that tithing is a covenant between the member and the Lord, and the bishopric needs to facilitate / accommodate that (especially for new members and children), and respect the timing of when the member gives it to them as the Lord's representatives in the transaction. In a very rare instance, a bishop may have to counsel someone that Sunday at church meetings is better than midnight at his house. D&C 59: 9-12 supports this (tithing is an oblation).

[mikbone]

I seem to remember dropping a tithing envelop into a lockbox in the distant past.

Been doing digital transfers since I can remember.

The Wiidow’s mite comes to mind.  Small tithing donations are obviously very important.  But then again she dropped it into the treasury.  Not specifically to a priest or even to Christ.  This was an event that was witnessed and discussed.

Edited July 1, 2021 by mikbone

[Traveler]

17 hours ago, NeedleinA said:

....

I just find it equal silly to associate the hardest, most time consuming and least efficient ways as the only successfully means to serve God and his children. 
 

I am convinced that the one size fits all (easiest, least time consuming and most efficient -- one size fits all mentality) does not foster relationships or individual recognition.  Catering to each individual is a foundation for maximizing inefficiencies.   There is the concept of the "Golden Rule" but the problem with the golden rule is that few (especially me) that have great difficulty understanding other's circumstances.    In short I have no clue how to treat others involved in lifestyle conditions that make absolutely no sense to me.

 

The Traveler

[dprh]

I'll just leave this here.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2021/06/what-comes-from-above-is-sacred?lang=eng

[NeedleinA]

46 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I am convinced that the one size fits all (easiest, least time consuming and most efficient -- one size fits all mentality) does not foster relationships or individual recognition.

I agree with you when it comes to the actual 'ministering' portion of the church's mission.
However, when it comes to the repetitive items of 'administering' I'll probably stand my ground that efficiency, is actually a form of ministering to those who would otherwise be stuck in endless hours of administration.

[LDSGator]

33 minutes ago, NeedleinA said:

However, when it comes to the repetitive items of 'administering' I'll probably stand my ground that efficiency

As you should. It’s not like you are doing anything blasphemous or something. 

[NeedleinA]

3 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

As you should. It’s not like you are doing anything blasphemous or something. 

I feel I did the thread a disservice by using the example of Tithing inside a thread about 'efficiency at Church'.
I am already very aware of the widows mite, Timmy's tithing, sacred funds, etc. etc.

I should have gone with an easier administration example and dodged such a sensitive subject 😉

[LDSGator]

1 minute ago, NeedleinA said:

I feel I did the thread a disservice by using the example of Tithing inside a thread about 'efficiency at Church'.
I am already very aware of the widows mite, Timmy's tithing, sacred funds, etc. etc.

I should have gone with an easier administration example and dodged such a sensitive subject 😉

You did nothing of the sort bro-we all know you and trust your intentions. Don’t worry about it. 
 

You want a sensitive subject? Ask @mirkwood how he feels about Van Halen and Van Hagar. 

[mikbone]

Jethro’s advice to Moses in Exodus 18 also comes to mind.   Especially:

 

“The thing that thou doest is not good.
18 Thou wilt surely wear away, both thou, and this people that is with thee: for this thing is too heavy for thee; thou art not able to perform it thyself alone.”

[CV75]

19 hours ago, mikbone said:

I seem to remember dropping a tithing envelop into a lockbox in the distant past.

Been doing digital transfers since I can remember.

The Wiidow’s mite comes to mind.  Small tithing donations are obviously very important.  But then again she dropped it into the treasury.  Not specifically to a priest or even to Christ.  This was an event that was witnessed and discussed.

That is definitely verboten these days per the financial training hosted by Elders Ballard and Causse (required viewing by bishoprics semi-annually). 

[askandanswer]

Clearly the church is not interested in efficiency, otherwise we would be baptising bags of microfilm. From Elder Christofferson's Sunday afternoon conference address:

I once read an article by a poorly informed newspaper reporter who explained that the way we perform baptisms for the dead is to immerse rolls of microfilm in water. Then all those whose names appear on the microfilm are considered baptized. That approach would be efficient, but it ignores the infinite worth of each soul and the critical importance of a personal covenant with God.

[dprh]

On 7/1/2021 at 1:16 PM, NeedleinA said:

I feel I did the thread a disservice by using the example of Tithing inside a thread about 'efficiency at Church'.
I am already very aware of the widows mite, Timmy's tithing, sacred funds, etc. etc.

I should have gone with an easier administration example and dodged such a sensitive subject 😉

I see more of what you're saying now.  Sometimes while the sacrament is being passed, I want to get up and give a deacon or four directions on where to go to be more efficient.  

[Traveler]

24 minutes ago, dprh said:

I see more of what you're saying now.  Sometimes while the sacrament is being passed, I want to get up and give a deacon or four directions on where to go to be more efficient.  

You do realize that for all else that happens on the Sabbath that just about everything else is not near as important or critical as the sacrament.  That a congregation has to sit for an extra 5 seconds while renewing their sacred covenants may actually be the most efficient and spiritual thing that has happened in many wards for years.😉

 

The Traveler

[LDSGator]

5 minutes ago, Traveler said:

You do realize that for all else that happens on the Sabbath that just about everything else is not near as important or critical as the sacrament.  That a congregation has to sit for an extra 5 seconds while renewing their sacred covenants may actually be the most efficient and spiritual thing that has happened in many wards for years.😉

 

The Traveler

That’s awesome. Lol!

Edited July 6, 2021 by LDSGator

[NeuroTypical]

8 minutes ago, Traveler said:

You do realize that for all else that happens on the Sabbath that just about everything else is not near as important or critical as the sacrament.  That a congregation has to sit for an extra 5 seconds while renewing their sacred covenants may actually be the most efficient and spiritual thing that has happened in many wards for years.😉

 

I'm on a roll for personal stories today. 

After 6 years of inactivity, I had started coming back to church and working on trying to gain a testimony.  I was declining the sacrament, out of respect for what it was, and how I couldn't legitimately promise to do those things.   The Sunday after gaining my powerful and unmistakable spiritual answer, I was ready to take the sacrament for the first time in years.  It was quite an event for the people who knew and cared about me.  

The deacon screwed up the blessing on the bread.  Then he screwed up a 2nd time.  After a hasty counsel from the bishop, he nailed it on the third time.  Everyone there (including me) all agreed the difficulty only heightened the spiritual experience for me and those around me. 

[Grunt]

2 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

I'm on a roll for personal stories today. 

After 6 years of inactivity, I had started coming back to church and working on trying to gain a testimony.  I was declining the sacrament, out of respect for what it was, and how I couldn't legitimately promise to do those things.   The Sunday after gaining my powerful and unmistakable spiritual answer, I was ready to take the sacrament for the first time in years.  It was quite an event for the people who knew and cared about me.  

The deacon screwed up the blessing on the bread.  Then he screwed up a 2nd time.  After a hasty counsel from the bishop, he nailed it on the third time.  Everyone there (including me) all agreed the difficulty only heightened the spiritual experience for me and those around me. 

I enjoy the time during sacrament.   This week I was asked to bless as we were short on Priests.   I was blessing with a shy young man who doesn't look at anyone or say a word, typically.    I was deep in prayer and forgot where I was until I was kicked and noticed him standing up waiting for me.

[Vort]

5 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

The deacon screwed up the blessing on the bread.  Then he screwed up a 2nd time.  After a hasty counsel from the bishop, he nailed it on the third time.  Everyone there (including me) all agreed the difficulty only heightened the spiritual experience for me and those around me. 

The bishop probably should have just asked a priest to say the blessing.

[NeuroTypical]

Got me!