Fether

Am extremely important question

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“Behold, it came to pass on the morrow that the multitude gathered themselves together, and they both saw and heard these children; yea, even babes did open their mouths and utter marvelous things; and the things which they did utter were forbidden that there should not any man write them.”

My wife is under the impression that this scripture is saying new born babies were talking. My view is that the miracle was more about what was being said by the youth than that babies were speaking.
 

who is right?

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7 minutes ago, Fether said:

“Behold, it came to pass on the morrow that the multitude gathered themselves together, and they both saw and heard these children; yea, even babes did open their mouths and utter marvelous things; and the things which they did utter were forbidden that there should not any man write them.”

My wife is under the impression that this scripture is saying new born babies were talking. My view is that the miracle was more about what was being said by the youth than that babies were speaking.
 

who is right?

Given that "these children" are those from 3 Nephi 17 (which includes "little" children), and "babes" are referenced in this verse, I would say your wide is more right since youth are neither "little" nor "babes."

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13 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Given that "these children" are those from 3 Nephi 17 (which includes "little" children), and "babes" are referenced in this verse, I would say your wide is more right since youth are neither "little" nor "babes."

Naahhh

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6 hours ago, Fether said:

“Behold, it came to pass on the morrow that the multitude gathered themselves together, and they both saw and heard these children; yea, even babes did open their mouths and utter marvelous things; and the things which they did utter were forbidden that there should not any man write them.”

My wife is under the impression that this scripture is saying new born babies were talking. My view is that the miracle was more about what was being said by the youth than that babies were speaking.
 

who is right?

I first pondered this question when I was on my mission.  I sought an answer through fasting and prayer but did not receive an answer.  But eventually (many years later) the answer did come when I had the opportunity to be in the Celestial room of the temple during a temple dedication.  I saw and heard that which is forbidden to be expressed or written.  I can say that it is forbidden by the spirit such that any effort to express does not explain or convey at all what happened.  Such can only be experienced or understood exclusively by the spirit.  At that time I was impressed by the spirit that my initial prayer (that I had forgotten all about) was answered.

 

The Traveler

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On 10/10/2021 at 12:34 PM, Fether said:

My view is that the miracle was more about what was being said by the youth than that babies were speaking.

I share your opinion too, but it’s not a hill I’m going to die on. 

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1 hour ago, LDSGator said:

but it’s not a hill I’m going to die on. 


If it weren’t my wife, I would agree

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My view is that the miracle was more about what was being said by the youth than that babies were speaking.

I find it interesting how often members or the church refuse to accept literal occurrences (miracles) and look for lesser answers.

 

Of course they mean babies spoke.

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18 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

I find it interesting how often members or the church refuse to accept literal occurrences (miracles) and look for lesser answers.

 

Of course they mean babies spoke.

My understanding of miracles is that there has to be a functional purpose to them. Causing new born babies to speak seems to be a strange miracle that has no utility. 

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19 hours ago, Fether said:

My understanding of miracles is that there has to be a functional purpose to them. Causing new born babies to speak seems to be a strange miracle that has no utility. 

It may be things we do not understand.

I have heard stories that babies still have memories of the pre-existence, but as they do not know how to speak to us yet, cannot tell us.

If they do remember, having the ability to tell us may tell us things unprecedented by anything else in the gospel.

Of course, this is conjecture rather than anything else, but I am under the idea that it was also babies speaking wisdom beyond what one may normally expect...whether that was with very young children under the age of one, or older, I think it is to show that the Spirit was so prevalent among them at that time that even their children and young children were affected strongly in a very spiritual way.

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22 hours ago, Fether said:

My understanding of miracles is that there has to be a functional purpose to them. Causing new born babies to speak seems to be a strange miracle that has no utility. 

To show the power of God?  That seems pretty functional to me.

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On 10/11/2021 at 3:46 PM, Fether said:

My understanding of miracles is that there has to be a functional purpose to them. Causing new born babies to speak seems to be a strange miracle that has no utility. 

What do you mean by "functional" purpose? I am not familiar with any condition for miracles, except that it is accomplished by God, a law (often Celestial law), and something we do not yet comprehend with our natural eyes.

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On 10/11/2021 at 3:46 PM, Fether said:

My understanding of miracles is that there has to be a functional purpose to them. Causing new born babies to speak seems to be a strange miracle that has no utility. 

I'm a big fan of "just 'cause you can't see one, don't mean it ain't there".  (For full effect, you need all four apostrophes.)

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2 hours ago, Anddenex said:

What do you mean by "functional" purpose? I am not familiar with any condition for miracles, except that it is accomplished by God, a law (often Celestial law), and something we do not yet comprehend with our natural eyes.

I have just been under the impression that God doesn’t exercise his power purely for spectacle. I don’t know where I got that belief, but it makes sense that God isn’t going to just levitate a chair in front of me just to wow me.

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12 hours ago, Fether said:

I have just been under the impression that God doesn’t exercise his power purely for spectacle. I don’t know where I got that belief, but it makes sense that God isn’t going to just levitate a chair in front of me just to wow me.

This is true, God is a God of order and law. Nothing he does is for spectacle, and this idea probably stems from the temptations given to Jesus from Satan. Some of the temptations were spectacles (e.g. throw yourself down) which he could have done, but Jesus new the purpose of the miracles.

In this case, I would call it an edifying miracle. I used to teach seminary with special needs children. At one point I came to the feeling that I had made a wrong decision, which led to apply James 1: 5. As a result, I learned something that was very important with regards to the Spirit, their understanding, and their mortal tabernacle.

Now, if I were in a lesson with them and the Spirit was strong enough, and a certain individual/student began to speak coherent sentences, such words that couldn't be written, I would have easily defined that as a miracle. This student, although 16, had the mentality of a 2 year-old. It wouldn't have been a spectacle. It would have been amazing and something I would have cherished forever.

In this light, I could see how remarkable this would have been, and the miracle portrayed to recognize that the Spirit can even help a babe learn, they can be taught, and if the Lord decides to loose their tongue he can. I, personally, think this is a greater miracle than the donkey speaking in the Old Testament. :)

Edited by Anddenex

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It is my experience that all miracles are not equally viewed, experienced and understood by all present.   I believe (have experienced) that two individuals standing side by side seeing and hearing the same event experience it differently - all this is in accordance to the Holy Ghost (the spirit) working within them.  I have also had miracles (spiritual experiences) that were not fully understood for years later.  I am not an expert in miracles but I am a student of miracles.   I would suggest that any miracle is useless to anyone that does not realize that it is a miracle.  I believe the words Jesus used is that they have eyes and see not and ears that hear not.

I have pondered why miracles are seldom if not ever empirical and easily verifiable.  I have come in part, to the conclusion, that the truth and light of G-d can only be realized through the Holy Ghost which contrary to so much of what we mortals learn is more than empirical.  In other words that there is divine truth in that which is empirical and there is always an empirical witness of truth but there is more to truth and light than just the empirical.  All truth is realized through the Holy Ghost (including that which is empirical) but those that receive a greater portion or influence the Holy Spirit realize and experience more or greater light and truth.  I believe this is one reason we ought to witness and testify (as the Holy Spirit inspires) to those with eyes to see and ears to hear.  That as marvelous as babies speaking - there are even greater manifestations of light and truth in these last days - a part of which were witnessed (spoken of) by prophets of G-d just a few weeks ago.

 

The Traveler

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