Is Politics Driving Membership Down?

[The Folk Prophet]

3 minutes ago, Grunt said:

I'm currently torn between two candidates.

Which, of course, is pointless because none of them have a shot. Which is unfortunate. (I'm currently favoring Ramaswamy, myself...had I the choice.)

[prisonchaplain]

28 minutes ago, Grunt said:

 I'm curious what you would struggle with in a general election?   

Last time I had to cut off my nose before I could vote for the candidate I chose. This time I'd have to cut off my entire head to do the same. Unfortunately, if I cut off my head I would then be unable to proceed. 

[zil2]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

Is critical thinking no longer taught at institutes of higher education?

No.  It's now politically correct thinking  and critical race theory.  Get with the program, geezer.

Meanwhile, elsewhere in the universe:

1 hour ago, Vort said:

I didn't bother to, you know, think clearly

 

[Just_A_Guy]

21 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

There is a generational divide in conservative Christianity: Many young people do not understand how their elders could have voted for someone like the former president. They may not like the alternative, but they bristle--especially at those who speak of the former president in almost messianic terms.

Apparently, this divide exists in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, as well. Leadership is encouraging members to vote intelligently, by looking and candidates and issues, not merely at party affiliation or tradition. Mormon leaders – whose church is often associated with the GOP – push back against one-party politics (theconversation.com).

Thoughts?

As has been pointed out, the Church leadership has for years released generic statements about “all parties have done good points, vet the candidates as individuals”, etc.  This is nothing new, and I think the article’s author is to some degree making a mountain out of a molehill.

I also agree with @Carborendum in that I think our Church does face a bit of a generational gap, exacerbated by school systems that a) endorse and promulgate the ideals of the sexual revolution; and b) have bought into the cult of authenticity that says humans don’t need to change because what they are is what they were created to be.

That said:  I think that as a Church we have largely eluded the Trump problem, because our leadership never really openly embraced and endorsed him the way many on the Christian Right did.  I realize I’m not really an insider to the CR; but to my outsider view—they spent forty years setting themselves up as the faction of self-discipline and character (especially on matters of sexual restraint), and proclaiming that these were foundational elements of a stable (and Christian) society; and then for the asking they jumped completely into the camp of a guy who had been notoriously promiscuous, had been pro abortion, and had been credibly accused of wife-rape (among other probable character flaws relating to honesty, thoughtfulness, etc).  I think a lot of people felt a lot of whiplash when that happened and started asking “geez, other than gays being evil, what DO you guys stand for?”  And it betrayed a baser desire among many on the Christian Right to seek protection from strong-men with all the worldly trappings of power (particularly governmental power); which again—seemed antithetical to many longtime observers of the Christian Right generally and made their longtime/sometime libertarian allies particularly contemptuous of them.

We Latter-day Saints have problems of our own (one could certainly argue, as many hardcore LDS conservatives generally and LDS Trumpers in particular do, that we’ve generally been too accommodationist with secular governments throughout the COVID crisis).  But a wholesale sellout of a concept that had been a bedrock principle of our spiritual faith and political actions over the last forty years, isn’t one of them.  

[prisonchaplain]

Wow, @Just_A_Guy. You put to words exactly what I've struggled. @Grunt if you were looking for a straight answer to why I'm struggling, you just got it. 

[scottyg]

6 hours ago, zil2 said:

This was my point - people leave the Church because they are not converted to the restored gospel of Jesus Christ.  That's the reason.  Everything else is just what they say to justify leaving.  Yes, many these days are or will be deceived, others will decide they like sin better (though they won't likely put it in those terms), others will say it's too hard, etc. etc.  But the reason they leave is because they have not been converted.  The way to address the problem is as Alma taught: with the preaching of the Word.

..."in coming days, it will not be possible to survive spiritually without the guiding, directing, comforting, and constant influence of the Holy Ghost."

"If we are to have any hope of sifting through the myriad of voices and the philosophies of men that attack truth, we must learn to receive revelation."

Why do we need the influence of the Holy Ghost? Why do we need to receive revelation? Is it so we can be guided and directed...or is it so we can become converted? There is great power in receiving revelation. Although receiving an answer to a heartfelt prayer is great, the conversion that takes place when one spirit converses with another is greater. I like getting spiritual promptings to do things, but the foundation of faith that comes from it is greater than the actual small bit of instruction. If we (and especially our youth) have spiritual experiences with the Holy Ghost, we will over time become truly converted. Gone are the days when you can just follow the crowd...because the crowd is going the other way. Even if an entire ward was doing the right thing, an individual who does not have real faith will not be able to follow them as he will lose his desire to be a part of the church.

We know that Covid-19, the alphabet soup community, and church finances have been a trial for many in various ways, but other trials are on the way that will worsen the sifting. We must learn to receive revelation.

[The Folk Prophet]

21 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

Wow, @Just_A_Guy. You put to words exactly what I've struggled. @Grunt if you were looking for a straight answer to why I'm struggling, you just got it. 

So I really don't get the struggle though. I mean I understand not liking Trump from a moral standpoint. But it's like saying you're struggling with the choice put before you...punched in the face....or shot in the face. Which do you choose? Is there really a struggle in that choice?

Edit: I realize I might be discussing what's being struggled over in wildly different terms that you might be meaning. So to be clear, it struck me that the "struggle" is who one would vote for, Trump or Biden. I mean if one really thinks (as some seem to) that Biden is better for the country, then sure... But if one knows full well that Trump is better for the country, but also presumes he's immoral... I dunno. I don't understand that struggle I suppose.

Edited August 21, 2023 by The Folk Prophet

[prisonchaplain]

We're America. We're supposed to be better than this. So, if I really have a choice between being punched and being shot, wow, is this what we've come to? I'm still hoping and praying for better.

[prisonchaplain]

22 minutes ago, scottyg said:

Why do we need to receive revelation? Is it so we can be guided and directed...or is it so we can become converted?

YES

[Just_A_Guy]

7 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

So I really don't get the struggle though. I mean I understand not liking Trump from a moral standpoint. But it's like saying you're struggling with the choice put before you...punched in the face....or shot in the face. Which do you choose? Is there really a struggle in that choice?

I have long believed that if (to use the language of ancient Judah’s conundrum) we keep our distance from Egypt even when getting threats by turns from Samaria, Syria, Assyria, and Babylon—that deliverance will ultimately come. I think that’s the subtext between D&C 98:10.  We have all, over the last couple of centuries, been led down the primrose path of embracing progressively more cunning and less thoughtful leaders; and we probably ought to have drawn a bright line long before now.  But Trump strikes me as an opportunity to awaken to our awful situation.  

Edited August 21, 2023 by Just_A_Guy

[zil2]

2 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

progressively more cunning and less thoughtful leaders

Quote

Nothing doth more hurt in a state than that cunning men pass for wise.
-- Francis Bacon, "Essays"

Apparently, it's been a problem for a very, very  long time.

[The Folk Prophet]

11 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

We're America. We're supposed to be better than this. So, if I really have a choice between being punched and being shot, wow, is this what we've come to? I'm still hoping and praying for better.

I agree. And I also hope and pray for better. But it's without any real hope.

Unfortunately, I'm afraid, the best case is we get 4 more years of Biden and progressivism, eventually losing the Supreme Court to the left, eventually losing religious and parental rights, etc., etc. That's probably the best case.

The worst case is probably Trump getting thrown in jail, his faithfuls legitimately revolting (Here, Jan 6th...hold my beer...) and we're into full-on civil war, concentration camps for Catholics, etc., etc.

Sigh. It's gonna be a rough ride until the Savior returns.

Edited August 21, 2023 by The Folk Prophet

[zil2]

4 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

But Trump strikes me as an opportunity to awaken to our awful situation.  

Call me crazy, but I personally think both Trump and Biden are evidence that secret combinations can already put whomever they want in the White House.

[The Folk Prophet]

5 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I have long believed that if (to use the language of ancient Judah’s conundrum) we keep our distance from Egypt even when threatened by Samaria, Syria, and Babylon—that deliverance will ultimately come. I think that’s the subtext between D&C 98:10.  We have all, over the last couple of centuries, been led down the primrose path of embracing progressively more cunning and less thoughtful leaders; and we probably ought to have drawn a bright line long before now.  But Trump strikes me as an opportunity to awaken to our awful situation.  

Maybe fleeing the country is in order then? I mean if you truly want to keep your distance...right?

[Grunt]

3 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

Wow, @Just_A_Guy. You put to words exactly what I've struggled. @Grunt if you were looking for a straight answer to why I'm struggling, you just got it. 

Yeah.  I guess I just typically don't jump into anyone's camp.  Politician worship always seemed odd to me.   I haven't respected most politicians for years, so I just vote for the best available option.   

[scottyg]

1 hour ago, Grunt said:

Yeah.  I guess I just typically don't jump into anyone's camp.  Politician worship always seemed odd to me.   I haven't respected most politicians for years, so I just vote for the best available option.   

For what it's worth, last year was the first year I wrote in names for several elections.

[Grunt]

9 hours ago, scottyg said:

For what it's worth, last year was the first year I wrote in names for several elections.

Please don't do that.  It's how I was elected to something I wasn't even running for.🤮

[Carborendum]

22 hours ago, zil2 said:

This was my point - people leave the Church because they are not converted to the restored gospel of Jesus Christ.  That's the reason.  Everything else is just what they say to justify leaving.  Yes, many these days are or will be deceived, others will decide they like sin better (though they won't likely put it in those terms), others will say it's too hard, etc. etc.  But the reason they leave is because they have not been converted.  The way to address the problem is as Alma taught: with the preaching of the Word.

I think my point was actually different. 

OLD: People had faith.  They were troubled.  They left.  

NEW: People never had faith to begin with.

With the old, some really did have a change of heart.  I've known some.  But in my experience, there have been far more who just use something as an excuse to leave, so they can start doing some things that Mormons just wouldn't do.  That's just an excuse.

[Traveler]

18 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

We're America. We're supposed to be better than this. So, if I really have a choice between being punched and being shot, wow, is this what we've come to? I'm still hoping and praying for better.

These are the last-days before the end of the "world" and the return of the Messiah.  The only reason to worry is by placing one's faith into things that will not endure.

 

The Traveler

[Backroads]

20 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

 I realize I’m not really an insider to the CR; but to my outsider view—they spent forty years setting themselves up as the faction of self-discipline and character (especially on matters of sexual restraint), and proclaiming that these were foundational elements of a stable (and Christian) society; and then for the asking they jumped completely into the camp of a guy who had been notoriously promiscuous, had been pro abortion, and had been credibly accused of wife-rape (among other probable character flaws relating to honesty, thoughtfulness, etc).  I think a lot of people felt a lot of whiplash when that happened and started asking “geez, other than gays being evil, what DO you guys stand for?”  And it betrayed a baser desire among many on the Christian Right to seek protection from strong-men with all the worldly trappings of power (particularly governmental power); which again—seemed antithetical to many longtime observers of the Christian Right generally and made their longtime/sometime libertarian allies particularly contemptuous of them.

This is certainly where I'm from. Truth be told, as far as pure political job went, I didn't mind Trump as president. Didn't vote for him, but the job itself I think was done okay. But not only can I not stand him as a person, I never could get behind him as a true conservative (and I realize I'm not the first person to make that complaint). 

My father-in-law is a salt-of-the-earth old-school conservative rancher and he was very much on board with MAGA. Not because of Trump's morality, but your remark about that baser desire for protection was a big one. I think in many ways it was a mere symptom of a much greater disease: many people feel they have to become reactionary just to get some claim for their own values. It's not perfect and I don't think many think it is, but they have to make a choice between one point of craziness or another. 

[mikbone]

I think the real problem is the obvious lack of virtue within the political establishment rotting our country as a whole.

Jesus Christ did not interfere with politics during his mortal ministry.   We have no idea if he ever voted for a politician.  He did pay taxes though.

[mikbone]

7 hours ago, Grunt said:

Please don't do that.  It's how I was elected to something I wasn't even running for.🤮

I vote for Grunt!

[LDSGator]

8 hours ago, Grunt said:

Please don't do that.  It's how I was elected to something I wasn't even running for.🤮

Reporter: Mr. Buckley, what would you do if you actually won the race for mayor?

William F Buckley: Demand a recount. 

[Traveler]

On 8/21/2023 at 7:30 PM, scottyg said:

For what it's worth, last year was the first year I wrote in names for several elections.

Be careful with the possible names one writes in - It can invalidate your entire ballot.   Same for not voting for various positions.   Those that are involved in validating ballots are very political and always (to my knowledge) are stout party members and will exercise any way possible to discount ballots that they do not like.

Please be serious in understanding your candidates, local voting laws and if you are going to vote – be clear in your mind what you are voting for and make sure there is nothing on your ballot to disqualify it.

 

The Traveler

[scottyg]

3 hours ago, Traveler said:

Be careful with the possible names one writes in - It can invalidate your entire ballot.   Same for not voting for various positions.   Those that are involved in validating ballots are very political and always (to my knowledge) are stout party members and will exercise any way possible to discount ballots that they do not like.

Please be serious in understanding your candidates, local voting laws and if you are going to vote – be clear in your mind what you are voting for and make sure there is nothing on your ballot to disqualify it.

 

The Traveler

If it's disqualified for someone not liking that I don't toe the party line, or thinking that I am just trying to make waves, then that's on them. The "other" / write in section is there for a reason. I will vote my conscience, and refuse to vote for someone who doesn't have both the leadership direction I desire, and the necessary moral character I believe in.

The only wasted votes are from those who don't vote.