Are the Gold Plates in a cave somewhere?

[carlimac]

My missionary daughter and her companions are allowed to go to Institute classes once/week. Last week she told us that the teacher said the gold plates were in a cave with other records and artifacts. Perhaps my daughter could have been only half listening and misunderstood, but she seemed pretty certain that’s what the teacher said. 🤔 

Who has heard something similar?

[CV75]

8 minutes ago, carlimac said:

My missionary daughter and her companions are allowed to go to Institute classes once/week. Last week she told us that the teacher said the gold plates were in a cave with other records and artifacts. Perhaps my daughter could have been only half listening and misunderstood, but she seemed pretty certain that’s what the teacher said. 🤔 

Who has heard something similar?

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Question:_Is_there_a_cave_in_the_Hill_Cumorah_containing_the_Nephite_records%3F

https://josephsmithfoundation.org/hill-cumorah-cave/

I haven't found a first hand account, but I haven't tried very hard, either. The 2nd and 3rd hand accounts refer to reports of a vision for the basis of this.

[carlimac]

Thanks. I’m a bit of a skeptic but obviously they are somewhere and won’t be found again till in God’s time. 

[mikbone]

Certainly.  

 

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/blog/2008/02/12/the-two-cumorah-theory

Edited March 5 by mikbone

[mikbone]

There are differing views though.

https://bookofmormonevidence.org/the-cave-at-cumorah/

[Traveler]

There are two things that come to my mind.  The first is that it is possible that there are individuals alive today that know where artifacts associated with the Book of Mormon are.  They may even have access to them.  However, if such is the case that knowledge is as carefully guarded as the artifacts themselves.  

The second I would relate to a spiritual manifestation I received as a youth concerning the divine origin of the Book of Mormon.  For much of my life I have thought that experience to be sufficient testimony.  More and more I am realizing that this sacred work (marvelous work and a wonder) is not an end in and of itself.  That it is necessary to study and ponder the Book of Mormon to be spiritually ready for things happening currently in our day.  Study and ponder does not mean to read and read hundreds of times.

Our prophets have testified on many occasions that we need to (as individuals) carefully study and ponder the revelations and prophesies in the Book of Mormon – including the inclusions in the Book of Mormon from the great prophet Isaiah.  Though there are many good people with good intensions is all the religions I have encountered – there is nothing on earth like or comparable to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  No other society or individuals have greater access to divine purpose and calling than the Latter-day Saints.  Key to our calling and mission as Saints in preparing for the coming Messiah is the Book of Mormon.  We ought to and must become spiritual experts in the great secrets and revelations contained in the Book of Mormon as well as all our standard works and words spoken by our prophets.  But the Book of Mormon is paramount.

This year under the instructions of “Follow Me”, all the saints worldwide are encouraged to study, ponder and openly discuss with one another what we are gleaning in our study.  In all honesty I do not believe that speculations of where artifacts are currently located is contributing to anything useful.

 

The Traveler

[mikbone]

 

[Vort]

On 3/4/2024 at 7:26 PM, mikbone said:

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/blog/2008/02/12/the-two-cumorah-theory

I dislike certain tags that oversimplify and distort matters, such as the "Two-Cumorah Theory". Rather than state the matter as "there were two or perhaps more hills called Cumorah", which, though possible, sounds clearly like a stretch (or a tautology—"King Lear was not written by William Shakespeare, but by another playwright of the same name"), a better statement would be, "Perhaps the very name 'Hill Cumorah' simply means the hill chosen to house records." If we assume that records were always hidden somewhere on a hill so that (1) they would be marked by an easily recognizable landmark and (2) they would shed rainfall, it's easy to see that such a hill might become generally known as "Records Hill". Those concerned with record-keeping would quickly learn to look for the Records Hill in an area. If "Cumorah" denotes written records or a storage place for them, then this identification makes perfect sense.

Of course, it's still an unsupported assertion, really just speculation. But it certainly has great explanatory value for those who believe the literal truth of the Book of Mormon and the narrative that it provides, and it doesn't immediately raise suspicion and mockery like "Two-Cumorah Theory" does.

Edited March 6 by Vort

[Traveler]

22 hours ago, Vort said:

I dislike certain tags that oversimplify and distort matters, such as the "Two-Cumorah Theory". Rather than state the matter as "there were two or perhaps more hills called Cumorah", which, though possible, sounds clearly like a stretch (or a tautology—"King Lear was not written by William Shakespeare, but by another playwright of the same name"), a better statement would be, "Perhaps the very name 'Hill Cumorah' simply means the hill chosen to house records." If we assume that records were always hidden somewhere on a hill so that (1) they would be marked by an easily recognizable landmark and (2) they would shed rainfall, it's easy to see that such a hill might become generally known as "Records Hill". Those concerned with record-keeping would quickly learn to look for the Records Hill in an area. If "Cumorah" denotes written records or a storage place for them, then this identification makes perfect sense.

Of course, it's still an unsupported assertion, really just speculation. But it certainly has great explanatory value for those who believe the literal truth of the Book of Mormon and the narrative that it provides, and it doesn't immediately raise suspicion and mockery like "Two-Cumorah Theory" does.

It is not uncommon to give familiar names to places.  I know of a few cities called Paris, London, Main, Portland and Bountiful just to name a few.  I have given up attempting to determine the land of the Book of Mormon – thought I have thought to have figured it out a few times, only to realize problems with the narrative within the Book of Mormon.  I have concluded that there are a number of places that Jesus most likely visited in the Americas – as well as several other places in this world.  I believe that there is sufficient evidence to convince me of visitations to many places other than the Americas (including in India, Persia and Northern Japan).   As a side note – does anyone know why Japan has a flag denoting the land of the rising sun?

 

The Traveler

[JohnsonJones]

I have heard about the cave with the records.  I think there could be MANY explanations.

WE have probed the Hill Cumorah and also done sonic and radar on the hill (from what I understand) to show that there is no chamber inside the Hill.

Now, I do NOT think we've probed DEEPER (and how deep it could be how far...who knows.  It could be a chamber under the hill...thus in the hill...by hundreds if not thousands of meters!).

It could ALSO be various other explanations other than a physical location in the Hill Cumorah itself.

For example, there is an idea that this Earth is where the Telestial and Celestial Kingdoms are.  It is also where the Spirit World is. 

Some who have this idea also have a belief of something akin to multiple dimensions, where you have several different dimensions occupying the same space at the the same time.  Hence, the Spirit world is also here in the same spot, but in a different dimension (or way of existing) than ours.

Hence, in that light, there could be a chamber in the Hill Cumorah but you will only be able to see or enter it via spiritual means until we have a higher spiritual existence as it resides in the same location, but a different existence (if that makes sense with what I said above).

Another idea is that it is there, but just as the plates (which were in the Hill for hundreds of years and yet no one had discovered them) lay hidden, that the Lord concealed the plates from normal individuals and people...and in this same way the chambers with the other records are also concealed.

 

There are many different ways it COULD work with a chamber or cave being within the Hill Cumorah, but if this is where the records are or how they are concealed for now is obviously not revealed to the general membership of the church. 

 

[Vort]

25 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

There are many different ways it COULD work with a chamber or cave being within the Hill Cumorah, but if this is where the records are or how they are concealed for now is obviously not revealed to the general membership of the church. 

The hill near the finger lakes region in eastern (upstate) New York that we call "Cumorah", where Joseph Smith first unearthed the plates of Mormon, is a drumlin—an enlongated, roundish hill composed of debris piled up by and left over from the actions of glaciers that retreated at the end of the last ice age, 13,000 or so years ago. Its structure is not like e.g. the mountains in Utah. You will not likely find limestone caverns in a drumlin. While I suppose it's possible there is some sort of large cave in the modern hill Cumorah, I doubt it, and don't see any convincing reason to suppose there is.

[laronius]

We know there were A LOT of plates that Mormon and Moroni had to deal with. If those plates are still on the earth then it's likely in a very concealed place like a cave or ruins that nature has covered up. So it's very possible that the gold plates were returned to that place.

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

Maybe.

https://bookofmormonevidence.org/a-hole-in-cumorah/

[mikbone]

Hammerspace

[Traveler]

Since we are keen on speculation for this thread, I will offer some speculation based on research that I followed and speculated myself.  Among the Dead Sea Scrolls was a copper scroll that was also called the temple scroll.  We know that in the ancient world that records were kept on metal for special reasons.  There were also various levels upon which records were kept.  A special breed of sheep and goats were maintained for what was called the scriptorium scrolls.  The Isaiah scroll found with the Dead Sea Scriptures is one example of the higher quality scriptorium scrolls.

One of the non-LDS scholars associated with the Dead Sea Scriptures speculated that the most important copies of the scriptures were kept at the temple.  Prior to 600 BC. the stone plates that contained the Ten Commandments was kept at the temple in the Holy of Holies and inside the Ark of the Covenant.    It is my personal speculation that the Brass Plates were kept in the Ark of the Covenant in the Holy of Holies of the Temple according to the law and covenant.  That the removal of the Brass Plates by Laban was a gross disobedience of that covenant. 

That one of the primary purposes of the temple of ancient times was to maintain and keep sacred artifacts.  It is my speculation that the temple is intended to house the most sacred artifacts obtained through covenant with G-d.  Specifically in the Holy of Holies.    There these most sacred covenants artifacts are protected by divine covenant.  That if circumstance was required that G-d would inform his covenantal garden to remove such artifacts by divine calling – as according to Nephi concerning the Brass Plates. 

So, my speculation is that certain artifacts (including the Golden Plates) are in possession of our Apostles.  That there are safe places to keep such artifacts in the Holy of Holies or if necessary, a special prepared vaults carved into granite stone mountain sides (known or secret).

I find it most interesting to me that the L-rd has found the means in our own day and time to have many of the most sacred artifacts (including buildings – temple and otherwise) back into the control and protection of his covenant Saints.  Not only are these artifacts being returned they are being returned without the Saints demanding it so or by their forced efforts.  I do believe this to be a divine witness that the only true and living G-d is providing witness to the world concerning his only true and living covenant (authority church).  And also a witness to the Saints (with eyes to see and ears to hear) of the preparations for the returning of the Messiah.

 

The Traveler

Edited March 12 by Traveler

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

17 hours ago, Traveler said:

Since we are keen on speculation for this thread, I will offer some speculation based on research that I followed and speculated myself.  Among the Dead Sea Scrolls was a copper scroll that was also called the temple scroll.  We know that in the ancient world that records were kept on metal for special reasons.  There were also various levels upon which records were kept.  A special breed of sheep and goats were maintained for what was called the scriptorium scrolls.  The Isaiah scroll found with the Dead Sea Scriptures is one example of the higher quality scriptorium scrolls.

One of the non-LDS scholars associated with the Dead Sea Scriptures speculated that the most important copies of the scriptures were kept at the temple.  Prior to 600 BC. the stone plates that contained the Ten Commandments was kept at the temple in the Holy of Holies and inside the Ark of the Covenant.    It is my personal speculation that the Brass Plates were kept in the Ark of the Covenant in the Holy of Holies of the Temple according to the law and covenant.  That the removal of the Brass Plates by Laban was a gross disobedience of that covenant. 

That one of the primary purposes of the temple of ancient times was to maintain and keep sacred artifacts.  It is my speculation that the temple is intended to house the most sacred artifacts obtained through covenant with G-d.  Specifically in the Holy of Holies.    There these most sacred covenants artifacts are protected by divine covenant.  That if circumstance was required that G-d would inform his covenantal garden to remove such artifacts by divine calling – as according to Nephi concerning the Brass Plates. 

So, my speculation is that certain artifacts (including the Golden Plates) are in possession of our Apostles.  That there are safe places to keep such artifacts in the Holy of Holies or if necessary, a special prepared vaults carved into granite stone mountain sides (known or secret).

I find it most interesting to me that the L-rd has found the means in our own day and time to have many of the most sacred artifacts (including buildings – temple and otherwise) back into the control and protection of his covenant Saints.  Not only are these artifacts being returned they are being returned without the Saints demanding it so or by their forced efforts.  I do believe this to be a divine witness that the only true and living G-d is providing witness to the world concerning his only true and living covenant (authority church).  And also a witness to the Saints (with eyes to see and ears to hear) of the preparations for the returning of the Messiah.

 

The Traveler

I like this theory.