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I'm not worried about things in the grand scheme of the eternities. Though I'm a good arguing buddy from time to time, and I get on my hobby horse like we all do occasionally, I'm not worried about the battles that are won by the 'other' side. I ultimately only care about the eternal perspective and find comfort in knowing the Savior wins the actual war. As much as vaccines, liberals, loss of freedoms, etc. pull me into the storm, I'll continue to do my best to focus on what matters.

One serious problem with charts and stats like this is that they are lacking information which makes them also unreliable. Specifically...what percentage of the people who die from Covid had underlying health issues? The chart implies that if you're over 75 you might have a 10-30% change of death. But what if you're 75 but in really good health? Then is your chance of dying from it 10%+? Or is it more line with, say, a 30 yr old with no underlying health issues? It strikes me that the underlying health issues might well be the primary reason for the age differences...in that the older you get the more likely you are to have underlying health issues. But they neglect to include that information in the stats for the most part.

As someone who has worked with doctors in grad school, I can say that the very best doctors are wonderfully intelligent and highly trained. But even they don't know everything, are well aware of their deficiencies, and do not pretend to knowledge and specialization they don't have. Medical doctors get approximately the same level of training in virology as biology graduate students who take a graduate-level virology course with lab. That is to say, they get a good, thorough introduction to the field and are generally familiar with the principles involved, but they would not dream to then call themselves experts in virology. That is a specialty unto itself. Then how do medical doctors make their recommendations in such things? Simple. They read up to see what the standard medical practices are, and they follow those. This is the blunt fact about how modern American medicine works. A doctor cannot possibly be expert in all things, and a family doctor (what used to be called a "general practitioner") usually cannot be expert in pretty much anything—possibly pediatrics or some such thing. Such doctors are generalists, almost by definition. They simply follow the standard practice, not because they're expert, but because they trust that the experts have done the thinking for them. Not sure the world can work in a different way when people are hyperspecialized. But it certainly makes the idea that "any doctor who says so is perfectly believable" (or, in dprh's words, "as long as it's someone that has an education in medicine and successful in their practice at it, you're good") simply untrue. COVID has a death rate of under 1.5% for those who get infected. Looking at a chart of death rate vs. age—an alarmist chart, to be sure, one that seeks to maximize the perception of danger* (blue bar is lower bound, black bar is upper bound)—we see that children and young adults are virtually immune from fatal effects of COVID. Those in middle age experience a death rate greater than that of an average flu, but not worthy of the worldwide panic that has gripped those who have allowed themselves to be unduly influenced by a sensationalist media. According to the chart below—a biased chart, remember—it is only those over 75 years of age that stand a really alarming chance of dying from COVID. *This chart is obviously biased. Those over the age of 65 comprise less than 10% of the world population, meaning those under 65 are 90% of the population. The very oldest, whose death rate bars are the scariest, constitute no more than about 1% of the world population. Yet the "Total" death rate given is substantially higher even than that of the oldest group under 65. Assuming reasonable numbers for the various age groups, how is this high "Total" death rate statistically possible? It is possible only if we assume that young people simply don't get COVID at much of a rate, and that only old people get it. Even if you believe such nonsense, you can't claim that's what the media scare tells you on a daily basis. It's not only the death of very old people that the media pass around. The bottom line is that the media feed us misinformation on a daily basis. The only question is whether they (1) are doing it intentionally as part of a dark, evil conspiracy, or (2) are simply too stupid to understand what's involved, or (3) are blinded by their own sociopolitical opinions and trying to play the hero by selectively portraying the numbers that they themselves believe (or that they think are necessary to get the population to act as they should), or (4) are themselves at the mercy of information providers, and are not (and cannot reasonably be expected to be) expert enough or intelligent enough to see how they are being manipulated. I'm sure it will be some combination of those four. What is absolutely beyond dispute is that, whatever you choose to believe, only a fool will take the media's coverage and analysis at face value. (For the record, I assume about 40% #3, 30% #2, 20% #4, and 10% #1.)

...and who kill their babies who dare to give life a try. But of course, the abortion situation is messy and infinitely complicated, and it's unforgivably judgmental of people to say that aborting your babies is killing them. Unlike laughing that, oh, I don't know, let's say, all the conservative Covid deniers are going to die off from catching a disease because of their own repugnant stupidity. This is an obvious and very clever truth worthy of belly laughs and sage nods from those smart enough to perceive conservative idiocy. It's always okay to mock stupid, self-destructive conservatives. But let's never hear a word against those poor, brave, enlightened souls on the left who suffer so bitterly for their sanity in a mad, Republican-ruled world. Please, just shut up and mask up. If you're not smart enough to do it for yourself, then do it for the protection of your betters.

Nope. I never take flu shots. I don't need to talk to a doctor about flu shots. Covid-19 is a flu. I have never yet heard a doctor say not to take the flu shots. They always say take it. In my 54 years of not taking flu shots, I've had the flu maybe 3 times. Neither did I receive any promptings from the spirit to take the shot.

My father is high-risk, his medical professional told him and my mother not to take the vaccine despite him being high risk.

Equally curious. If a doctor said, "You don't need the vaccine"... would you even listen to their advice or would you try to perhaps, lets say, discredit them instead? Also, what happened to the rest of the handbook guidance... "and also seek the guidance of the Holy Ghost."? So... what should an individual do if a medical professional says 'get the vaccine', but the Holy Ghost says 'not now'?

If 'voting' made a difference any longer in our country, you might have a point. IMO we are well past the 'Righteousness & Prosperity' stage of the pride cycle. Rather we are now simply transitioning from the 'Pride & Wickedness' stage into the 'Destruction & Suffering' stage. If my unvaccinated family and I are passed on and serving in the Spirit World, while the mortal world is run by liberals and their champagne, I'll take it as a win. Side note: I just spent the weekend at Adam-ondi-Ahman, wonderful place. I'm 100% fine if the 2nd coming happens later today, or I'm even willing to wait until tomorrow. Just sayin.

Competent medical professional on the subject of COVID might be hard to find. COVID is new and science takes awhile to settle. Competent medical professional on the subject of YOU should be within the realms of your main doctor (assuming you have one). The doctor that knows you best would be the most competent to advise you.

I agree. With that in mind, here I remain unvaccinated. I have spoken with medical professionals inside our stake, with a bag of mixed answers, speculation and best guesses... none of which are virologist. The Church suggests speaking not just to a medical professional but a 'competent' one. Does that mean, like actual virologist competent or just primary care physician competent? What about Lab Technician competent? What about Walgreens/CVC pharmacy competent? Or milk, eggs and the jab at the grocery store competent? I wonder how many people went and got the vaccine without consulting an actual competent medical professional first?

From the Introduction of the Book of Mormon: From President Ezra Taft Benson in a General Conference address: When the Book of Mormon was abridged, Mormon took those things he thought/was inspired, as most profitable to us. This includes the book of Ether. The heading for Ether 8: The chapter tells us the story of Akish and his rise to power using murder and Secret Combinations. Moroni proceeds to tell us about the horrors of Secret Combinations. In verses 23-26 he is speaking to us. The modern church members. Take particular note of verse 24. It dumbfounds me the lengths members of the LDS church will go to write off the dangers of modern SC's in our world.

Our house wasn’t really affected, in fact I laughed when a city wide warning text hit my phone saying people should stay inside unless there was an emergency… didn’t realize on the other side of town things were so bad.

Assuming this was true....then sure. But... ...conversely, liberals are the ones who aren't having babies.

We had a flash flood on our property one year, and it surprised us. A week of light rain, and then 30 minutes of very heavy rain did it. There's a 3-4' high drainage pipe under the road between me and the neighbor across the street. I always thought it was stupid and overkill, until this flash flood. We watched the neighbor's property fill up with water, and that drainage pipe was blasting water so fast there was a decent sized stream across my property and the next two downstream. The neighbor's property was almost full, and the water was about to spill over the road, when the pipe started draining it faster than it was coming. Neighbor and kids went running out to see the once-in-a-lifetime river running through our properties. It was slow and calm enough that the neighbor picked up his boy and threw him into the stream. Oh, so THAT's why we have no-build areas on our neighborhood plat! THAT's why the drainage pipe is so large! THAT's why 3 houses down there's a berm across that guy's property, which turned into a lake that stayed for 2 weeks! It was all good erosion control and flood management practices! I have to admit that I gained just a touch of respect for all the stupid hoops developers and builders have to jump through to build stuff.

I think you might have misunderstood me. That was in reference to the Church's handbook's reference to "counsel with competent medical professional." Needle asked if it needed to be a virologist or if a lab tech would be sufficient. I just gave my opinion of what the church meant by "competent medical professional." Who would you suggest the average member to counsel with?

From what I understand, it was a flash flood. It came out of no where so people parked and when they got their groceries, they came out to that.

Aw, so you're one of the Cedar City folks. I just want rain in Ogden. Even Salt Lake City got rain. I just want some in Ogden. *Cries*

I once calculated that the universe has existed for about 13 billion years. This means that as spirits we have been around for a long time. If we look at just the time since the universe was created and think of a foot being like 1,000 years then we have been in existence for about the distance from Salt Lake City to Los Angles California. The 70 years you are talking about would be about (not quite) one and a half inches. So if you are on a journey from Salt Lake City, Utah to LA - what would possibly change your arrival in the last inch and a half of your journey? I would also point out that there are millions of soles that die as infants before accountability or any possibility of even being exposed to the love of which you are speaking. It is my understanding that the experience of death is the experience of evil and to experience the Atonement is the experience of good - both of which are spoken of in scripture as the purpose of morality. I agree than only those that have the Love of Christ (charity) will obtain the Celestial Kingdom. Also keep in mind that the plan of salvation is for all G-d's children that accepted that plan in the pre-existence - not all of G-d's children that become mortal will be Celestial. That such things can only be completed by faithfulness in the pre-existence, in mortality and in the spirit world after this life. Our learning of love extends beyond this life but no one - not a single sole will have any opportunity to perfect the love of Christ that does not experience morality - which all (without any exceptions) will obtain a body and experience the good from the evil. The Traveler

You're a good arguing buddy. I not only got the vaccine without consulting a competent medical professional, I signed up for the Moderna phase III trial without even asking anyone. I suppose competent medical professionals were involved, as my age and medical history would have prevented me from being in Phase I or II.

I think I have a healthy relationship with my doctor, someone I trust. If he'd told me it was best to not get vaccinated, I probably would have gotten a second opinion, but if it was the same, I'd followed the advice. That's a hypothetical question though. You are the one who quoted the handbook. I'm simply asking if you (generic, or specific, I'm not sure if you (NeedleinA) have received the shots) followed the handbook and sought advice from a physician. On the other question, definitely follow the Holy Ghost. It may seem like I'm attacking or condescending and I'm not trying to. I'm actually trying to avoid that. I really am wondering if the people who aren't getting the shot are following that guidance to get advice from a medical professional. Edit: Oh, just thought this might be relevant. My wife was pregnant when the vaccine became available for her. Her OB/GYN told her to wait. There weren't enough studies yet on the vaccine for pregnant women. So she waited until three weeks after the baby was delivered as recommended by the doctor to get her first shot. Edit2: As I read my edit, I can see it can be read sarcastically or condescendingly. I didn't mean it like that. I honestly hadn't thought of my wife's experience when first replying and when I did remember it, I thought it would be relevant.

However we experienced love in the pre-existence doesn't mean by any means that we mastered love ourselves. The only beings with mastery of love in the preexistence were God the Father and Jesus Christ. Do you really think we live here on Earth for an average of 70 years primarily just to check mark a box that says "Body obtained"? Obtaining a body is important, but it serves the purpose of enabling us to develop love, a process that has proven to take its time when it comes to the stubborn likes of us.

This. This times a million.

I agree with you, that would be great.

@Carborendum good to see you back

From David Eddings, Pawn of Prophecy. We took the family to Utah from California for an elder daughter's wedding. During the trip (8 people squished into the cab of a Ford F-150), we wanted to listen to an audiobook, so I picked this book (which I remember fondly enjoying in my youth). After we listened, I stopped the recording and we spoke about this passage at length. It was then that I realized that this single concept had left an indelible mark upon my life. I had read this book probably when I was 14 and remembered the passage clearly as if I had just read it. When we finally arrived in Utah, I saw my twin brother and spoke to him about the book as well. I commented about how much I respected the character Durnik. His first comment was... the piece that goes underneath, right? I was like, "YES! Why don't people get this?!"

To be pedantic and nit pick the stink out of this......... that's not really an "and". Killing a baby is included in "not having" them. (Unrelated anecdote: The other day I was playing a video game with my daughter (who's 4) and we were just shooting a wall over and over again and I just kind of commented casually, "Man, we're shooting the stink out of this wall!" A while later, mommy came in the room and my daughter jumped up and exclaimed, "Mommy, we shooted the smell out of it!")

Something fascinating: those not getting the shot are largely republicans. So, they have a better chance of dying. Which will lead to less of them voting. Which will lead to liberal values being advanced. So, every liberal will open up champagne, and they should. @Godless, your side will win this battle. You are welcome, and be sure to thank them later.

Me.

Mormons pray for “rain”, but only give thanks for “moisture”.