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classylady

Church releases picture of seer-stone

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To use Nibley's example: A child uses soap to wash his hands, but he doesn't understand what the soap does. For the child, using soap is an act of faith, with the soap as a symbol of cleanliness. But the soap performs a real function that the child does not understand. The child sees washing with soap as "the way you're s'pose to do it," but the chemical reality is that the soap decreases the water's surface tension and allows it to penetrate and dissolve or suspend dirt and other impurities.

Ignoring the context of the discussion:

Wow that really resonated with me for some reason.

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The fact that you are interested enough about our religion to take the time to post on forums and such indicates that you have much more interest in it than the majority of the LDS community.

 

no one who posts on this board will surprise me by saying "oh yeah that's old news" because it is. 

 

I am talking about your cultural Mormon. Who never looked beyond what they were taught in sunday school

Basically me until I got bored and started hanging out here.

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The staff that Moses cast at Pharaohs feet was just a piece of wood...

You just reminded me of the brazen serpent Moses was commanded to put on a staff to cure Israelites bitten by fiery serpents. How looking at a brass serpent would counteract venom in the bloodstream is a mystery, but certainly those who merely looked at it did live.  Another object, not particularly notable in and of itself, producing a miraculous result when combined with faith in God (faith for me is hearing the word of God and doing it ie hope+obedience/action).

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I must admit that I expected seer stones to be white and more transparent.  I wonder if there are types or classifications of seer stones.  I also wonder if the stone will be scientifically tested and analyzed.  I suspect the composition of the stone to be quite ordinary. 

the one used in the breast plates probably were- as they described to be inside some sort of spectacle type contraption which a person "looked through".

Altho that's not to say that when one is using a seer stone like this one you could also probably describe it as "looking through" as well.

Edited by Blackmarch

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Strange, I knew about it and never even tried to find anything out about it.  I think by "hiding" our history, a lot of people mean not screaming it in your face until you can't possibly miss it.

when people beat you over the head for saying hey God appeared to a kid and gave him a gold book... you tend to get less enthusiastic about telling it to people.... especially when said people had a thing for doing worse to things they percieved as witchcraft.

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You just reminded me of the brazen serpent Moses was commanded to put on a staff to cure Israelites bitten by fiery serpents. How looking at a brass serpent would counteract venom in the bloodstream is a mystery, but certainly those who merely looked at it did live.  Another object, not particularly notable in and of itself, producing a miraculous result when combined with faith in God (faith for me is hearing the word of God and doing it ie hope+obedience/action).

 

And it's possibly worth noting that the brazen serpent became an object of worship itself, until King Hezekiah ordered it destroyed.

 

the one used in the breast plates probably were- as they described to be inside some sort of spectacle type contraption which a person "looked through".

Altho that's not to say that when one is using a seer stone like this one you could also probably describe it as "looking through" as well.

 

FWIW, the interpreters given to Joseph with the plates were the ones given to the brother of Jared immediately after he had presented the Lord with sixteen "white and clear" stones he had molten out of rock.  See Ether 3.

 

when people beat you over the head for saying hey God appeared to a kid and gave him a gold book... you tend to get less enthusiastic about telling it to people.... especially when said people had a thing for doing worse to things they percieved as witchcraft.

 

But . . . but . . . Wicca is on the rise in the US!

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And it's possibly worth noting that the brazen serpent became an object of worship itself, until King Hezekiah ordered it destroyed.

 

 

FWIW, the interpreters given to Joseph with the plates were the ones given to the brother of Jared immediately after he had presented the Lord with sixteen "white and clear" stones he had molten out of rock.  See Ether 3.

Doh!

>.>

<.<

 

 

 

But . . . but . . . Wicca is on the rise in the US!

yep. home of where good is bad and bad is good :/

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Suppose we were to do a chemical assay on a vial of consecrated oil. What do you suppose the testing would reveal? I assume it would show that the consecrated oil was, in fact, olive oil, as we already knew.

 

Does that mean therefore the oil wasn't consecrated?

 

Does that mean the consecrating of the oil did not have any effect on the oil?

 

 

 

No the oil has been consecrated, however it is still just oil, no effect on the oil.

 

You just reminded me of the brazen serpent Moses was commanded to put on a staff to cure Israelites bitten by fiery serpents. How looking at a brass serpent would counteract venom in the bloodstream is a mystery, but certainly those who merely looked at it did live.  Another object, not particularly notable in and of itself, producing a miraculous result when combined with faith in God (faith for me is hearing the word of God and doing it ie hope+obedience/action).

Bold part added by me but yes this is what it is. The object be it oil, rock, staff, etc etc when combined with faith is what makes it miraculous.

 

A rock is a rock, and oil is oil. Sorry to disappoint you.A scientist can examine our consecrated oil and do all the tests he wants and it will still be oil no matter how much we want it to be something else. Please don't come back to me and say that I can't prove that it isn't because you can't prove that it is. We will just talk in circles, however science as we know it is on my side.

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It seems to me that the more we learn the more we learn that there is more to learn.    Was it necessary to provide a picture of the seer stone to realize that they exist?  But again I must admit that in seeing the picture that there is much that I do not know about seer stones.   There is a difference between ordinary stones and seer stones - how are seer stones distinguished from ordinary stones?  I know about oil and consecrated oil - but outside of the temple one can perform any priesthood function that uses consecrated oil without the consecrated oil - it is not an absolutely necessary element.

 

And so I wonder - what is the covenant that allows someone access to a seer stone?  Or perhaps I should say logon or user access?   Are seer stones operated by faith or priesthood or both?  Are seer stones important? 

 

I have a feeling that those that know about seer stones say very little.  Maybe it is all similar to classified material of which there are different kinds or levels of classification.  Some levels of classification are so sensitive that a person with the classification to know must have a classified clearance that the level itself is classified and unlawful to disclose their clearance. 

 

My general impression is that this whole matter is similar to a duck that appears to be serenely moving across the water without any effort - but below the surface of the water where no one sees, the web feet of the duck are very busy.

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No the oil has been consecrated, however it is still just oil, no effect on the oil.

 

Prove it.

 

A scientist can examine our consecrated oil and do all the tests he wants and it will still be oil no matter how much we want it to be something else. Please don't come back to me and say that I can't prove that it isn't because you can't prove that it is. We will just talk in circles, however science as we know it is on my side.

 

No, I do not know that science is on your side. Science is self-admittedly useless if you lack the tools to measure what is under discussion.

 

What exactly are your scientific bona fides?

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Prove it.

 

Vort you just want to be contrary, and we are talking in circles. 

 

 

Prove that it is different. Prove that by saying a prayer something about our consecrated oil has changes materially. By the way our church does not believe in transubstantiation. 

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Vort you just want to be contrary, and we are talking in circles.

 

No, I'm not "just want[ing] to be contrary". My point, which I have tried to make several times, is that your claim that consecrated oil is "just oil" or that a seerstone is "just a stone" cannot be substantiated. You made your opinion clear: It's not the arrow, it's the Indian. I am merely pointing out that your statement is indeed only an opinion, not an objective fact.

 

Prove that it is different. Prove that by saying a prayer something about our consecrated oil has changes materially. By the way our church does not believe in transubstantiation. 

 

I am not making a definitive statement, omega. I am saying it may well be physically different, but in a way we do not yet know how to measure.

 

You, on the other hand, are making a definitive statement: There is no physical difference between a seerstone and any other stone. This seems an odd statement for a believing Mormon; Martin Harris's switching of Joseph's seerstone with another similar stone and Joseph's subsequent inability to see anything with it suggests that the stone itself was somehow different, set apart or changed, from other stones.

 

I am not trying to argue or offend. I am merely suggesting that the bare fact that we don't see any physical difference does not therefore prove that there is no physical difference.

Edited by Vort

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I used to be disappointed that the Church didn't openly teach about the translation process (including the seer stone) when I was growing up. Now I'm disappointed the Church didn't do a better job of not openly teaching about the translation process (including the seer stone) when I was growing up.

 

Elder Neal A. Maxwell, Jan 1997: By the Gift and Power of God

Elder Russell M. Nelson, July 1993: A Treasured Testament

 

and for the old timers:

Richard Lloyd Anderson, Sept 1977: By the Gift and Power of God

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Hmmmmmm, what's that story...

Was it Martin Harris that tried to swap rocks on Joseph to see if he'd notice?

Perhaps it's just a rock, perhaps it is not. Perhaps my temple garments are just cloth, perhaps not.

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Guest MormonGator

I accept on faith that Moses got the tablets for the ten commandments on a mountain thousands of years ago. I can accept that Smith Jr needed a seer stone to translate the Book of Mormon on faith as well .  

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Sometimes I am amazed with how passionately people will discuss things they know almost nothing about????  As much as I would like to know more about seer stones - it is unlikely anything of actual value will result from discussions with someone like myself that has no actual experience or revelation to draw upon.

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People are passionate because this is not how the church has represented the translation process as coming to light.  Interestingly enough, even today they are still teaching "translation" of the book of mormon by trying to show Joseph Smith "reading" the golden plates.

 

I walked into a ctr 7 classroom yesterday and saw this posted on the wall (along with about 8 others):

post-23405-0-09132600-1439222209_thumb.j

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People are passionate because this is not how the church has represented the translation process as coming to light.  Interestingly enough, even today they are still teaching "translation" of the book of mormon by trying to show Joseph Smith "reading" the golden plates.

 

I walked into a ctr 7 classroom yesterday and saw this posted on the wall (along with about 8 others):

 

That color scheme is anything but authentic. Obviously the method of translation is the least of our problems if we can't agree on the color of Joseph Smiths hair.  <_<

Edited by Windseeker

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The fact that you are interested enough about our religion to take the time to post on forums and such indicates that you have much more interest in it than the majority of the LDS community.

 

no one who posts on this board will surprise me by saying "oh yeah that's old news" because it is. 

 

I am talking about your cultural Mormon. Who never looked beyond what they were taught in sunday school

The reality is that most people don't know about the seer stone.  I spoke with someone who is in a Bishopric, lifetime member, born and raised in Utah.  He claimed to not know about the seer stone, and was very surprised when the purpose and use of the stone was presented to him. 

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People are passionate because this is not how the church has represented the translation process as coming to light.  Interestingly enough, even today they are still teaching "translation" of the book of mormon by trying to show Joseph Smith "reading" the golden plates.

 

I walked into a ctr 7 classroom yesterday and saw this posted on the wall (along with about 8 others):

That can't be right, surely the church would correct these inaccuracies and teach this process correctly...

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That can't be right, surely the church would correct these inaccuracies and teach this process correctly...

 Surely the church is not making an effort to change the cultural understanding of the "translation" process. 

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I think you guys should do some research into the esoteric world of crystals and gemstones.

 

Some of it, I believe, will be New Age fluff, but as with anything, research stuff with a critical, yet open mind. The ancients believed crystals and gemstones had many metaphysical properties, and/or that using stones or other instruments could be aids for scrying (like crystal ball gazing).

 

In the bible and the book of mormon, there's quite a fair amount of mention of such things. You of course have the Urim and Thummim, but you also have the stone that everyone who enters the celestial kingdom will be given, as a metaphysical aid. You have the interpreters prepared for the Nephites used by King Mosiah. You have the stones that were touched by the finger of God for the Brother of Jared to give light to their ships...(why did he choose/fashion stones? what gave him that idea?)...And you also have the breastplate used by Aaron in the Old Testament, which had a gem stone for each of the 12 tribes of Israel. It's believed by many that, essentially, this was much more than a decorative item, but an actual amulet meant to give the high priest spiritual aid in his office. It's interesting that it was also worn over the chest, which is where the heart chakra is. Your chakras (there are 7 of them) are supposed to be energy centers within your body that effect you in various ways, physically, emotionally, spiritually....some believe that Elijah saw them in his vision, in one interpretation. The Judeo-Christian scriptures don't really say a lot about them, but if you go to India, there's a lot of talk about it. God gave light to all religions, after all, and I don't see it conflicting with the gospel, so I'm open to it.

 

Anyway, I've recently been experimenting with crystals and gemstones. I do feel an energy about them and they have positively affected me in helping me be in a better state of mind. Whether or not that is placebo or the real thing, it's hard to say, but I've had a few interesting experiences that suggest there may really be something to it, and I'm making it a matter of prayer also.

 

One thing to consider, for example....quartz crystal is considered an essential "power stone" that is helpful with all chakras and also is used to enhance the feeling or power of the environment it is in or is being focused on. It essentially amplifies. Now where in the Church do we see a LOT of crystal quartz?

 

The Celestial Room. With those huge crystal chandaliers. I'm beginning to think there's a reason that they are crystal, and more than just aesthetics. I'm beginning to think that they are there with the purpose of amplifying and enhancing the spiritual nature of the environment in the temple.

Edited by Magus

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