Vegan Celestial, Omnivore Telestial

[clbent04]

Do you think the Lord will judge us based on how much meat we consume in this life?  Or how many animals died at the expense of our nourishment? "Eat meat sparingly"?  What is sparingly?  1 out of 10 meals? 

I interpret this as eat meat as little as possible. 

I give the following breakdown using the glories of the Kingdoms of Heaven merely for illustration purposes in how I rank the righteousness of each class, not to say I believe these are the kingdoms you'll end up in based on your eating lifestyle

Vegan = Celestial

Vegetarian = Terrestrial

Omnivore = Telestial

Carnivore = Outer Darkness

After all, the Lord gave man dominion over the Earth and it's inhabitants (all the animals) so that God could test us with how we would exercise that dominion 

Agree/disagree?

[JohnsonJones]

I'm a total carnivore...I'm in trouble it looks like.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

I like to think of "sparingly" like the spare tire on your car.  The spare tire is for emergencies only, and when you have to use it, you only do so until you can get a regular tire.  I use meat the same way.  

I don't think at the judgment day the Lord will be there with a list of what meats we ate, docking us "points" accordingly.  I think that most often the Lord simply allows logical consequences.  I agree with the science and doctors that say a whole food plant based diet* is healthier, and I believe it's the best way to follow the "do's" in the Word of Wisdom.  Eating meat and dairy has it's own logical consequences in the here and now....cancer, heart disease, strokes, high blood pressure, weight gain, diabetes to name a few.

*I say "Whole Food Plant Based" because Twinkies (and other junk food) are vegan, so simply being vegan is not necessarily healthy.  Also because it is needful to eat the whole food...for example, fruit juice is not healthy, but the whole fruit is.

[estradling75]

7 hours ago, clbent04 said:

Do you think the Lord will judge us based on how much meat we consume in this life?  Or how many animals died at the expense of our nourishment? "Eat meat sparingly"?  What is sparingly?  1 out of 10 meals? 

I interpret this as eat meat as little as possible. 

I give the following breakdown using the glories of the Kingdoms of Heaven merely for illustration purposes in how I rank the righteousness of each class, not to say I believe these are the kingdoms you'll end up in based on your eating lifestyle

Vegan = Celestial

Vegetarian = Terrestrial

Omnivore = Telestial

Carnivore = Outer Darkness

After all, the Lord gave man dominion over the Earth and it's inhabitants (all the animals) so that God could test us with how we would exercise that dominion 

Agree/disagree?

By this logic  Joseph Smith is a Telestial being. 

 

We are given Dominion over the earth, which includes using the Plants and Animals for food and raiment   See D&C 49

19 For, behold, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that which cometh of the earth, is ordained for the use of man for food and for raiment, and that he might have in abundance.

And D&C 59

17 Yea, and the herb, and the good things which come of the earth, whether for food or for raiment, or for houses, or for barns, or for orchards, or for gardens, or for vineyards;

18 Yea, all things which come of the earth, in the season thereof, are made for the benefit and the use of man, both to please the eye and to gladden the heart;

19 Yea, for food and for raiment, for taste and for smell, to strengthen the body and to enliven the soul.

 

So the idea that we are not suppose to use animals as food is directly contradicted in scripture.

The council is to be wise and not wasteful stewards of the Dominion we have been given, and we could potentially have a lot of room for improvement there.  But how we can best be a wise steward falls into the category of personal revelation to take into account our individual needs and resources.

So while being a vegan/vegetarian is a totally valid personal choice, it is not valid to try to impose it on others.

Edited August 11, 2017 by estradling75

[NeuroTypical]

7 hours ago, clbent04 said:

Do you think the Lord will judge us based on how much meat we consume in this life?  Or how many animals died at the expense of our nourishment? "Eat meat sparingly"?  What is sparingly?  1 out of 10 meals? 

Agree/disagree?

I think he'll judge us by how righteous of a steward we've been in our spheres of responsibility on earth.  So to give answer:

Possibly
Possibly
Sparingly: economical, scanty, limited, frugal, saving.  Two of these words have to do with resource management, one with self-limitation, and one deals with the concept of "not a whole lot".

Disagree with your levels of heaven/dietary choices deal.  

[Midwest LDS]

I don't know if I agree to that list per se. After all the Savior, as a resurrected Celestial being, consumed fish with his disciples so it can't be that bad. I would say figure out a diet that works best for you, and try to be careful never to waste meat and you should be ok.

Edited August 11, 2017 by Midwest LDS
Spelling error

[anatess2]

8 hours ago, clbent04 said:

Do you think the Lord will judge us based on how much meat we consume in this life?  Or how many animals died at the expense of our nourishment? "Eat meat sparingly"?  What is sparingly?  1 out of 10 meals? 

I interpret this as eat meat as little as possible. 

I give the following breakdown using the glories of the Kingdoms of Heaven merely for illustration purposes in how I rank the righteousness of each class, not to say I believe these are the kingdoms you'll end up in based on your eating lifestyle

Vegan = Celestial

Vegetarian = Terrestrial

Omnivore = Telestial

Carnivore = Outer Darkness

After all, the Lord gave man dominion over the Earth and it's inhabitants (all the animals) so that God could test us with how we would exercise that dominion 

Agree/disagree?

Disagree.  It's not wise to use truthful teachings and spin it for use in a different agenda.  Celestial, Terrestrial, Telestial, and Outer Darkness all have very specific meanings in the gospel that correspond with righteousness and one's testimony of the Savior.  Saying Vegan = Celestial makes it that Veganism is perfection - the ideal.  It is not.  Saying Carnivore = Outer Darkness makes it that if you are put in a situation where all that is available is meat, you should rather die than be cast out to Outer Darkness.  A very dangerous proposition indeed.

 

 

[NeuroTypical]

Acts 27:33 And while the day was coming on, Paul besought them all to take meat, saying, This day is the fourteenth day that ye have tarried and continued fasting, having taken nothing.

Luke 7:36  And one of the Pharisees desired him [Jesus] that he would eat with him. And he [Jesus] went into the Pharisee’s house, and sat down to meat.

John 4:6-8 Now Jacob’s well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied with his journey, sat thus on the well: and it was about the sixth hour.  There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink. (For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.)

Luke 24:41-43 [This is after the resurrection]  And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. And he took it, and did eat before them.

Matthew 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat:

1 Corinthians 6:13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats

[shrug]

Edited August 11, 2017 by NeuroTypical

[Guest]

9 hours ago, clbent04 said:

Do you think the Lord will judge us based on how much meat we consume in this life?  Or how many animals died at the expense of our nourishment? "Eat meat sparingly"?  What is sparingly?  1 out of 10 meals? 

I interpret this as eat meat as little as possible. 

I give the following breakdown using the glories of the Kingdoms of Heaven merely for illustration purposes in how I rank the righteousness of each class, not to say I believe these are the kingdoms you'll end up in based on your eating lifestyle

Vegan = Celestial

Vegetarian = Terrestrial

Omnivore = Telestial

Carnivore = Outer Darkness

After all, the Lord gave man dominion over the Earth and it's inhabitants (all the animals) so that God could test us with how we would exercise that dominion 

Agree/disagree?

Disagree.

I think eating meat is even less prohibited than drinking caffeinated cokes.  Both are fully permitted and neither will get your temple recommend removed (which is the benchmark for living worthy of the Celestial Kingdom).  Unless you are a special case and you receive a direct, clear, revealed commandment from the Lord telling you not to eat meat or drink caffeinated coke (the same way Sampson was a special case who was not supposed to cut his hair), I think eating meat and drinking caffeinated cokes has zero effect on where you will end up in the next life.

My favorite way to break fasting?  A nice 16 ounce Texas steak and a large Diet Coke.

[clbent04]

12 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

I like to think of "sparingly" like the spare tire on your car.  The spare tire is for emergencies only, and when you have to use it, you only do so until you can get a regular tire.  I use meat the same way.  

I don't think at the judgment day the Lord will be there with a list of what meats we ate, docking us "points" accordingly.  I think that most often the Lord simply allows logical consequences.  I agree with the science and doctors that say a whole food plant based diet* is healthier, and I believe it's the best way to follow the "do's" in the Word of Wisdom.  Eating meat and dairy has it's own logical consequences in the here and now....cancer, heart disease, strokes, high blood pressure, weight gain, diabetes to name a few.

*I say "Whole Food Plant Based" because Twinkies (and other junk food) are vegan, so simply being vegan is not necessarily healthy.  Also because it is needful to eat the whole food...for example, fruit juice is not healthy, but the whole fruit is.

@LiterateParakeet You brought up a good point that brings up another train of thought.  Is there a correlation between being sinful and partaking of substances that cause negative health affects to your body (even if not specifically itemized by the Word of Wisdom)?

To dig a little deeper, do you think our bodies being negatively affected by animal products is a manifestation to us from the Lord that consuming animal products beyond the "sparingly" threshold is displeasing to Him?  Thinking of the Word of Wisdom, doesn't our obedience to not partaking of restricted substances generally save us from not only from breaking a commandment, but also from negative health effects as well?

Aren't we taught that our bodies are temples and we are charged with maintaining them accordingly?

***I'll throw this disclaimer out there right now. No, I'm not a vegan, vegetarian or anything in between.  I'm an omnivore that is accustomed to eat meat (mostly chicken) at least several times a week.  I've thought about reducing my meat consumption lately probably because of my wife.  She tries to eat as little meat as possible.  She's very sympathetic to the plight we are witnessing today that a lot of these animals are enduring.  Animals are being subjected to horrible living conditions and inhumane deaths in many of the major meat factories out there. It's a real thing and honestly very sad.  I told her to STOP showing me the PITA videos, they're just too horrible to watch.  It's like a holocaust happening everyday, animals living their entire existences in deplorable conditions only to be led to be slaughtered in excruciating ways***  

Anyway, that's starting to veer off point of this post.  I'm not a vegan who is trying to push their agenda on everyone else.  Those people are annoying to me.  I'm mostly interested in discussing what we can glean from the teachings of gospel, and the spiritual consequences, if any, related to meat consumption beyond the "sparingly" threshold

Edited August 11, 2017 by clbent04

[clbent04]

6 hours ago, estradling75 said:

We are given Dominion over the earth, which includes using the Plants and Animals for food and raiment   See D&C 49

Good scripture references. I forgot about these passages. Thanks

Edited August 11, 2017 by clbent04

[clbent04]

4 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Acts 27:33 And while the day was coming on, Paul besought them all to take meat, saying, This day is the fourteenth day that ye have tarried and continued fasting, having taken nothing.

Luke 7:36  And one of the Pharisees desired him [Jesus] that he would eat with him. And he [Jesus] went into the Pharisee’s house, and sat down to meat.

John 4:6-8 Now Jacob’s well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied with his journey, sat thus on the well: and it was about the sixth hour.  There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink. (For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.)

Luke 24:41-43 [This is after the resurrection]  And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. And he took it, and did eat before them.

Matthew 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat:

1 Corinthians 6:13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats

[shrug]

Thanks @NeuroTypical

[clbent04]

4 hours ago, DoctorLemon said:

My favorite way to break fasting?  A nice 16 ounce Texas steak and a large Diet Coke.

You had me all the way up to the point you said Diet Coke. I like the regular

[Vort]

6 hours ago, estradling75 said:

By this logic  Joseph Smith is a Telestial being.

As is Jesus Christ.

[clbent04]

6 hours ago, anatess2 said:

 Saying Carnivore = Outer Darkness makes it that if you are put in a situation where all that is available is meat, you should rather die than be cast out to Outer Darkness.  A very dangerous proposition indeed.

I'm thinking of a couple scenarios where the only thing available to you to eat would be meat. After some difficulty, I have arrived:

-You somehow get locked inside an Oscar Meyer wiener factory where the only thing edible is hot dogs

-You live on an island undiscovered by anyone else where animal life flourishes yet plant life is non-existent

Edited August 11, 2017 by clbent04

[SilentOne]

12 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

You live on an island undiscovered by anyone else where animal life flourishes yet plant life is non-existent

I'm trying to figure out a way for this ecosystem to be possible. The best I've got depends on a base of a huge web of carnivorous insects that all prey on each other but I have serious doubts that it would be sustainable.

[person0]

15 hours ago, clbent04 said:

Vegan = Celestial

Jesus ate fish as a resurrected being.  Fish is meat.

Quote

. . .a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. . . Have ye here any meat? . . . And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish. . . and he took it, and did eat before them. (Luke 24: 39-43)

I find it interesting that one of the very first things Jesus asked for as a resurrected celestial being was meat.  Blows a hole in that theory.  

[Vort]

Ftr, what we call meat is called "flesh" in the KJV Bible. The word "meat" as used in the KJV means "food", not necessarily "flesh".

[jewels8]

I am approaching this topic from a spiritual and dietetic perspective.  Being in the nutrition field, I have learned the importance of nutrients for the health of our bodies, and how each functions and provides us with what we need.  Everyone is unique, but yet, we are all human and need nourishment to grow, thrive and live.  Our bodies are temples, that we have stewardship over.  The Word of Wisdom helps us to understand how to take care of these earthly tabernacles.  I think it is amazing how our body works.  Carbohydrates, proteins, fats, vitamins, minerals, and water work together to give us what our cells need to perform their functions for us.  Giving too much or too little of  a nutrient can result in problems that could often be avoided.  Having said that, protein, found in meats, dairy, eggs, nuts, legumes, whole grains, fish, etc, can be found in incomplete & complete varieties.  Animal products contain complete protein.  Rarely beans, like soybeans, offer complete protein.  Other foods (except for fruits and fats, mainly) , contain incomplete proteins.  By combining certain foods, such as whole wheat bread & peanut butter= complete protein.  A complete protein contains all the essential  amino acids to sustain us.  Depending on factors such as age (stage of life, including pregnancy) , gender, heredity,  activity level, etc, depends on how many grams complete protein a day our body needs.  Protein is used to repair and build tissue, muscles, and cells. Dietetic professionals and other reputable professionals and reliable sources can help us know how much of each nutrient, like protein, our body needs.  Just as they can help us know how many daily calories our body needs.  We do need complete proteins on a daily basis.  Also, Vitamin B12 is found in foods of animal origin (eggs & dairy count)  and those who are vegan need a shot of B12 or a source to help them be healthy.  The Lord has given us meat to eat, just as he has given us delicious, nutritious fruits, vegetables, grains, etc.  and if we are wise, we can make sure we help build rebuild and strengthen our body every day.  

 

[Suzie]

 

Quote

"..Man and all forms of life will be vegetarians in the coming day [Millennium]; the eating of meat will cease, because, for one thing, death as we know it ceases. The great and eternal purpose of the Millennium ... is to provide an atmosphere for a way of worship that will lead worthy spirits to eternal life in our Father's kingdom." (Bruce R. McConkie, Millennial Messiah, pp. 658-59)

 

Get ready flesh-eaters.

Edited August 12, 2017 by Suzie

[Fether]

19 hours ago, clbent04 said:

Do you think the Lord will judge us based on how much meat we consume in this life?  Or how many animals died at the expense of our nourishment? "Eat meat sparingly"?  What is sparingly?  1 out of 10 meals? 

I interpret this as eat meat as little as possible. 

I give the following breakdown using the glories of the Kingdoms of Heaven merely for illustration purposes in how I rank the righteousness of each class, not to say I believe these are the kingdoms you'll end up in based on your eating lifestyle

Vegan = Celestial

Vegetarian = Terrestrial

Omnivore = Telestial

Carnivore = Outer Darkness

After all, the Lord gave man dominion over the Earth and it's inhabitants (all the animals) so that God could test us with how we would exercise that dominion 

Agree/disagree?

I think if there is a problem with the way we eat then the prophets will tell us. The celestial kingdom is not just for those that discover through some pure means of personal revelation that meat is of the devil.

[Jojo Bags]

Personally, I really love animals...

Especially medium rare London broil with barbecue sauce.

Edited August 12, 2017 by Jojo Bags

[Snigmorder]

The Word of Wisdom essentially defines sparingly as "only eat meat when there's nothing else."

I disagree with the idea that meat eating has any bearing on salvation. Because if it did, we would have been told so. 

[clbent04]

5 hours ago, jewels8 said:

I am approaching this topic from a spiritual and dietetic perspective.  Being in the nutrition field, I have learned the importance of nutrients for the health of our bodies, and how each functions and provides us with what we need.  Everyone is unique, but yet, we are all human and need nourishment to grow, thrive and live.  Our bodies are temples, that we have stewardship over.  The Word of Wisdom helps us to understand how to take care of these earthly tabernacles.  I think it is amazing how our body works.  Carbohydrates, proteins, fats, vitamins, minerals, and water work together to give us what our cells need to perform their functions for us.  Giving too much or too little of  a nutrient can result in problems that could often be avoided.  Having said that, protein, found in meats, dairy, eggs, nuts, legumes, whole grains, fish, etc, can be found in incomplete & complete varieties.  Animal products contain complete protein.  Rarely beans, like soybeans, offer complete protein.  Other foods (except for fruits and fats, mainly) , contain incomplete proteins.  By combining certain foods, such as whole wheat bread & peanut butter= complete protein.  A complete protein contains all the essential  amino acids to sustain us.  Depending on factors such as age (stage of life, including pregnancy) , gender, heredity,  activity level, etc, depends on how many grams complete protein a day our body needs.  Protein is used to repair and build tissue, muscles, and cells. Dietetic professionals and other reputable professionals and reliable sources can help us know how much of each nutrient, like protein, our body needs.  Just as they can help us know how many daily calories our body needs.  We do need complete proteins on a daily basis.  Also, Vitamin B12 is found in foods of animal origin (eggs & dairy count)  and those who are vegan need a shot of B12 or a source to help them be healthy.  The Lord has given us meat to eat, just as he has given us delicious, nutritious fruits, vegetables, grains, etc.  and if we are wise, we can make sure we help build rebuild and strengthen our body every day.   

@jewels8 Jewels, all in italics? Really?  So would you say meat is non-replaceable in our diets in order to be healthy and balanced?

[person0]

6 hours ago, Vort said:

Ftr, what we call meat is called "flesh" in the KJV Bible. The word "meat" as used in the KJV means "food", not necessarily "flesh".

I busted out my handy dandy Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible (this version).  Which happens to be a favorite resource book of mine, purchased on my mission for a near steal of only $5.00 at a used book store.  Upon a brief 30-60 seconds of verification research I have determined that you are indeed correct.  The Greek word which is translated as meat, 'brōsimos', translates more correctly as 'eatable' (reference link).  With an additional 5 minutes of research, I was able to verify that, although some of the words imply actual meat, every word translated as 'meat' in the Bible can in fact be used to reference other types of food.

Nevertheless, and clearly important to the original question, Jesus did in fact eat the fish, which is actual meat, when he asked for and was presented with food.