Video - Heavenly Father's Plan

[romans8]

In the church video, Introduction - Our Heavenly Father's Plan, how does one account for interracial children 
like Africans and Hispanics at the beginning of the video? 

Thank you,

Matteo

[Just_A_Guy]

1 hour ago, romans8 said:

In the church video, Introduction - Our Heavenly Father's Plan, how does one account for interracial children 
like Africans and Hispanics at the beginning of the video? 

Thank you,

Matteo

Umm . . . because all races were created by, and are loved by, God.

Don’t mainline Christians believe similarly?  Why does such a question even need to be asked?

Edited December 12, 2020 by Just_A_Guy

[JohnsonJones]

5 hours ago, romans8 said:

In the church video, Introduction - Our Heavenly Father's Plan, how does one account for interracial children 
like Africans and Hispanics at the beginning of the video? 

Thank you,

Matteo

That's kind of a strange question.  What is so odd about having them in the beginning of the video?

I think it's a picture showing that the Lord loves and cares for all of his children no matter who they are, though including people of different races may be the more obvious way of doing that I suppose.

I don't think much thought was given to what pictures were being used or the details of them...because some very crazy things could come to light if we really think they put a lot of thought into it.

If we wish to get humorous, we could point out various aspects (such as, only the boys are interracial children...or...why all the followers who rebelled are white...at least in one picture.

Or, even more interesting...seeing many current ideas about beards being on leaders in the Church today and the need to shave...why the Lord and the Father both have beards, but the leader of those that rebelled (our adversary) is clean shaven.

Things that if we really wanted to get into the nitty gritty and feel every picture was carefully planned and placed in the video can make you go...

Hmmm....

 

(Aka...I think they put pictures they felt were nice and illustrated their ideas into the video, but other than that not a lot of thought was actually put into the artwork).

[Suzie]

9 hours ago, romans8 said:

In the church video, Introduction - Our Heavenly Father's Plan, how does one account for interracial children 
like Africans and Hispanics at the beginning of the video? 

Thank you,

Matteo

I don't understand your question. Please expand, thanks.

[CV75]

9 hours ago, romans8 said:

In the church video, Introduction - Our Heavenly Father's Plan, how does one account for interracial children 
like Africans and Hispanics at the beginning of the video? 

Thank you,

Matteo

You may perceive them as interracial if your socially constructed paradigm takes physical traits into account. But the plan does not treat them as such, and a Zion society does not have such a social construct (Acts 17: 26-31). A good portrayal of God's children depicts our variety, at least as far as practicable for a video or whatever medium is being used.

[Carborendum]

10 hours ago, romans8 said:

In the church video, Introduction - Our Heavenly Father's Plan, how does one account for interracial children 
like Africans and Hispanics at the beginning of the video? 

Thank you,

Matteo

Why would you make such a racist comment?  It is ridiculous to believe that any race is not part of the family of God.

Why do you subscribe to such a backwards and outdated idea that some races are not God's children?  Did your parents teach you that or did your pastor say that?

 

I sure don't want to be part of your church. They'd probably boot me out for not being white.  I'm sooo glad I'm part of a church that is not so racist as your apparently is.  I'm proud to be a part of a church that accepts me for my soul and not for the color ofmy skin.

Remind me never to go to your church EVER.

[laronius]

What @romans8 is referring to is a picture of what I presume is the premortal spirit world that shows a black young man among others. So I'm guessing his question is about race in the premortal world. I don't know that any prophet or apostle gas ever commented on that subject before but the picture is clearly just pointing out that we are all God's children and lived with him before we were born. I don't think anything can be inferred beyond that.

[Fether]

I had a ward mission leader that probably read every possible publication by any member of the church ever and he was heavy into deep doctrine.

He suggested that our spirits look just like how we look today, only perfected. No reference though

[Just_A_Guy]

https://askgramps.org/what-do-our-spirits-look-like/

[CV75]

5 hours ago, laronius said:

What @romans8 is referring to is a picture of what I presume is the premortal spirit world that shows a black young man among others. So I'm guessing his question is about race in the premortal world. I don't know that any prophet or apostle gas ever commented on that subject before but the picture is clearly just pointing out that we are all God's children and lived with him before we were born. I don't think anything can be inferred beyond that.

It also shows an Asian youth to the left. But all the other frames depict exclusively Caucasian characters. In that case @romans8 , I would avoid attaching doctrinal significance to this bias in artistic expression. I don't have an issue with God's spirit children having a variety of physical characteristics in the premortal world any more than the various talents, and I don't believe these would have impacted their decision to follow the Lord or Satan in the war in heaven any more than gender, a decidedly eternal characteristic.

[JohnsonJones]

20 hours ago, Fether said:

I had a ward mission leader that probably read every possible publication by any member of the church ever and he was heavy into deep doctrine.

He suggested that our spirits look just like how we look today, only perfected. No reference though

One reference (it does not say this, but it is a reference that some take to imply that what we look like now, our spirits could at least take the form of it in the pre-existence) is in Ether 3

Quote

15 And never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man believed in me as thou hast. Seest thou that ye are created after mine own image? Yea, even all men were created in the beginning after mine own image.

16 Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh.

17 And now, as I, Moroni, said I could not make a full account of these things which are written, therefore it sufficeth me to say that Jesus showed himself unto this man in the spirit, even after the manner and in the likeness of the same body even as he showed himself unto the Nephites.

 

[Traveler]

On 12/12/2020 at 8:02 AM, romans8 said:

In the church video, Introduction - Our Heavenly Father's Plan, how does one account for interracial children 
like Africans and Hispanics at the beginning of the video? 

Thank you,

Matteo

We see as different what we want to see as different.  I am reminded of an old Star Trek episode where two races were at war with each other.  One race was white on the right side and dark on the left side - the other was dark on the right side and light on the left side.  The Enterprise crew did not notice the difference until it was pointed out.  Sadly we are taught to notice certain differences and then to categorize such differences with a definition that really does not apply.   The children you think you are seeing may not have been born in Africa nor have Spanish in the ancestral tree.  

The only reason you are seeing what you see is because you have been taught to see it.  Perhaps it is time you honestly learn to see "things" differently than what you have been taught in your past.

 

The Traveler

Edited December 14, 2020 by Traveler

[romans8]

On 12/13/2020 at 9:21 AM, laronius said:

What @romans8 is referring to is a picture of what I presume is the premortal spirit world that shows a black young man among others. So I'm guessing his question is about race in the premortal world. I don't know that any prophet or apostle gas ever commented on that subject before but the picture is clearly just pointing out that we are all God's children and lived with him before we were born. I don't think anything can be inferred beyond that.

@CV75 @Traveler @Suzie @JohnsonJones @Carborendum @Fether

Thank you Laronius.  Yes, that is correct.  The question is about race in the premortal world and whether it 
is of natural or supernatural birth. 

So I was wondering if heavenly parents, as taught by this church, are both white (Caucasian) and able to have 
offspring in appearance of various nationalities or if God the Father has wives of various races? If Heavenly 
Father were to have multiple wives, how could I complain. He has ultimate authority to do as he wishes. To me 
it would have to be supernatural for a married African couple (one man/one wife) to have a baby girl who grew 
up to resemble a Swede with lighter skin, blond hair, and blue eyes.

Matteo

[JohnsonJones]

36 minutes ago, romans8 said:

@CV75 @Traveler @Suzie @JohnsonJones @Carborendum @Fether

Thank you Laronius.  Yes, that is correct.  The question is about race in the premortal world and whether it 
is of natural or supernatural birth. 

So I was wondering if heavenly parents, as taught by this church, are both white (Caucasian) and able to have 
offspring in appearance of various nationalities or if God the Father has wives of various races? If Heavenly 
Father were to have multiple wives, how could I complain. He has ultimate authority to do as he wishes. To me 
it would have to be supernatural for a married African couple (one man/one wife) to have a baby girl who grew 
up to resemble a Swede with lighter skin, blond hair, and blue eyes.

Matteo

To be honest, I have NO IDEA if he has multiple wives, what they look like, or any thing else regarding that.  Anything in that arena is pure speculation on an individuals part.

There are those that infer that the Lord may have multiple wives, but I do not know myself on this matter.  I do not know what they would look like for that matter. 

Edited December 19, 2020 by JohnsonJones

[Fether]

2 hours ago, romans8 said:

@CV75 @Traveler @Suzie @JohnsonJones @Carborendum @Fether

Thank you Laronius.  Yes, that is correct.  The question is about race in the premortal world and whether it 
is of natural or supernatural birth. 

So I was wondering if heavenly parents, as taught by this church, are both white (Caucasian) and able to have 
offspring in appearance of various nationalities or if God the Father has wives of various races? If Heavenly 
Father were to have multiple wives, how could I complain. He has ultimate authority to do as he wishes. To me 
it would have to be supernatural for a married African couple (one man/one wife) to have a baby girl who grew 
up to resemble a Swede with lighter skin, blond hair, and blue eyes.

Matteo

Unlike gender, I can’t think of any reference that suggests ethnicity is an eternal attribute we had in  pre earth life, nor be carried to the afterlife.

I suspect skin color is purely a product of evolution in mortality to form whatever attributes needed to survive or formed via cultural diets.

 

Much like how today, humans are taller, live longer, are fatter, etc.

I remember reading about a tribe in some remote corner of the world whose feet could spread out like a human hand. This was due to generations and generations of climbing trees (or something like that). When they die, I imagine their spirits and resurrected bodies would be reformed to match the reality of what God looks like.

I suspect that when we die, there won’t be any skin colors. Now don’t think I am suggesting we will be see through, rather, the concept of skin color will be so far from our mind that we won’t even think of it. 

[Traveler]

2 hours ago, romans8 said:

@CV75 @Traveler @Suzie @JohnsonJones @Carborendum @Fether

Thank you Laronius.  Yes, that is correct.  The question is about race in the premortal world and whether it 
is of natural or supernatural birth. 

So I was wondering if heavenly parents, as taught by this church, are both white (Caucasian) and able to have 
offspring in appearance of various nationalities or if God the Father has wives of various races? If Heavenly 
Father were to have multiple wives, how could I complain. He has ultimate authority to do as he wishes. To me 
it would have to be supernatural for a married African couple (one man/one wife) to have a baby girl who grew 
up to resemble a Swede with lighter skin, blond hair, and blue eyes.

Matteo

It may be fun to speculate upon things without any empirical evidence - but such thinking seldom produces any rational ideas for "intelligent" (practical) use.   What little we have concerning the physical appearance of a divine being is just not conducive to the type of speculation you are pursuing (My Opinion).  For example, what we are able to see in ourselves and others is completely dependent on the presents of a separate source of light.  Thus, what we see is comprised from the light that reflects off of them and without question, does not originate from their person.    What seems to be the case of a divine being (or spirit being) is that they themselves are a source of light that is perhaps comparable to our sun.  In other words if you were to look upon them with your nicked mortal physical eyes - you would be blinded - perhaps even permanently.  

I am of the mind that skin color, eye color and other "genetic" physical characteristics are things subject to our mortal experience and have little or nothing to do with our eternal selves.  I believe that those that get wrapped around such things are - quite frankly - wasting their time. (and in many cases wasting a lot of other people's time). 

 

The Traveler

[askandanswer]

On 12/14/2020 at 1:58 AM, Fether said:

I had a ward mission leader that probably read every possible publication by any member of the church ever and he was heavy into deep doctrine.

He suggested that our spirits look just like how we look today, only perfected. No reference though

 

On 12/14/2020 at 4:33 AM, Just_A_Guy said:

https://askgramps.org/what-do-our-spirits-look-like/

15  And never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man believed in me as thou hast.  Seest thou that ye are created after mine own image?  Yea, even all men were created in the beginning after mine own image.
16  Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh.

(Book of Mormon | Ether 3:15 - 16)

[Fether]

1 hour ago, askandanswer said:

Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh.

What the missionary leader was suggesting was that they look exactly how we are. There are fat spirits, Asian spirits, spirits with birth marks, etc.

[CV75]

On 12/19/2020 at 9:36 AM, romans8 said:

@CV75 @Traveler @Suzie @JohnsonJones @Carborendum @Fether

Thank you Laronius.  Yes, that is correct.  The question is about race in the premortal world and whether it 
is of natural or supernatural birth. 

So I was wondering if heavenly parents, as taught by this church, are both white (Caucasian) and able to have 
offspring in appearance of various nationalities or if God the Father has wives of various races? If Heavenly 
Father were to have multiple wives, how could I complain. He has ultimate authority to do as he wishes. To me 
it would have to be supernatural for a married African couple (one man/one wife) to have a baby girl who grew 
up to resemble a Swede with lighter skin, blond hair, and blue eyes.

Matteo

I think the artistic depictions are to convey that all of us, no matter what we look like, are children of heavenly parents. The Church does not teach about the racial appearance of spirit children in relation to their parents (race is a human social construction, not an eternal principle).

I believe great variety is achievable among the children of heavenly parents for a variety of reasons, including what can happen over eons in a pre-mortal spirit world. So theoretically, an exalted couple can have spirit children that look very different from them as well as very much like them. Our features are said to resemble our spirits, but we also know there is interference in how genetic material operates in relation to our spiritual design in this fallen world, and that genetic material can undergo change in the mortal world. Doctrinally, gender is an eternal characteristic that does not change, and there is a "proper and perfect frame", "proper order", "natural frame" and "proper order" to a resurrected body (word search the Book of Mormon).

Edited December 21, 2020 by CV75

[brotherofJared]

On 12/12/2020 at 7:02 AM, romans8 said:

In the church video, Introduction - Our Heavenly Father's Plan, how does one account for interracial children 
like Africans and Hispanics at the beginning of the video? 

Thank you,

Matteo

Easy. Their mothers were African or Hispanic or white.