Full and complete lesson on modesty?

[Fether]

Growing up, I have heard many complaints that the topic of modesty is heavily pushed on girls and not on guys, that guys seem to be exempt from it. From these people’s complaints, I haven’t heard any share how it should be taught (or if I have, it was unconvincing to the point that I don’t even remember)

If you were to give a full and complete lesson on modesty that includes Doctrine, principle, and applications, what all would you say are important? Would you say modesty is justly or unjustly emphasized to women?

[Just_A_Guy]

I think that “modesty” often is reduced to a sexual component, and under this rubric obviously the burden for that will tend to be imposed on females since males tend to be (as I understand it) more likely to respond to visual stimuli than females are.

But I think the broader and more important facet of modesty is courtesy and not making life harder for others than it has to be.  Bearing each other’s burdens per Mosiah 18.  Not needlessly creating stumbling blocks for each other per Romans 14.  Not insisting upon making ourselves the center of attention.  Thinking of others before ourselves.

The application that has been most prevalent in my mind lately (as our ward council has grappled with COVID-related drama) is this:  if “modesty”, properly understood, demands that a female dress conservatively around a male; then it also demands that an anti-masker wear a mask around a COVID-hypochondriac.  

[Fether]

3 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I think that “modesty” often is reduced to a sexual component, and under this rubric obviously the burden for that will tend to be imposed on females since males tend to be (as I understand it) more likely to respond to visual stimuli than females are.

But I think the broader and more important facet of modesty is courtesy and not making life harder for others than it has to be.  Bearing each other’s burdens per Mosiah 18.  Not needlessly creating stumbling blocks for each other per Romans 14.  Not insisting upon making ourselves the center of attention.  Thinking of others before ourselves.

The application that has been most prevalent in my mind lately (as our ward council has grappled with COVID-related drama) is this:  if “modesty”, properly understood, demands that a female dress conservatively around a male; then it also demands that an anti-masker wear a mask around a COVID-hypochondriac.  

I read in the last couple hours a differing view on modesty. That we all have control and responsibility over our own thoughts, but we  don’t always have control over our environment.

Being modest is acting, speaking, and dressing in a way that does not distract from The righteous intentions of whatever activity is being done at the moment. Women dressing immodestly is just the most prevalent, common and impactful aspect of modesty we see today.

 Modesty is almost entirely about helping other focus on what is important in each moment

[Vort]

Bragging is immodest. Showing off is immodest. Virtue signaling is immodest. Dressing in scanty clothing is only one (albeit obvious) form of immodesty.

In earlier years, women who dressed in such a way were either too poor to be able to dress any better or were prostitutes exhibiting their wares. That today's women freely choose to dress in such a manner is a devastating indictment of their morality, and of the morality of our immodest society in general.

Let us teach and learn modesty within our families, including teaching our daughters not to display themselves as would prostitutes. The words and examples of the mothers are the most effective way to accomplish this.

Edited June 10, 2021 by Vort

[Carborendum]

7 hours ago, Fether said:

I read in the last couple hours a differing view on modesty. That we all have control and responsibility over our own thoughts, but we  don’t always have control over our environment.

Being modest is acting, speaking, and dressing in a way that does not distract from The righteous intentions of whatever activity is being done at the moment. Women dressing immodestly is just the most prevalent, common and impactful aspect of modesty we see today.

 Modesty is almost entirely about helping other focus on what is important in each moment

I'm not sure why you called this a "differing view" when it seems to be exactly what JAG said.

11 hours ago, Fether said:

If you were to give a full and complete lesson on modesty that includes Doctrine, principle, and applications, what all would you say are important? Would you say modesty is justly or unjustly emphasized to women?

Let's set aside the discussion about "distraction" and focus on just the sexual part (doh-oh, that didn't sound like I expected).  How about the "chastity" aspect?

Women are disproportionately reminded of this but not unjustly so.  Check your latest movies, TV shows, supermarket magazines... and you will clearly see that women are "expected" to be more sexual and provocative in their dress and grooming.  Most women (even very chaste women) feel the pressure to show more skin and not just be "attractive" but "sexy".  

Does society press men in the same manner?  I don't think so.  Instead, they all dress like Justin Bieber.  Rather, men are constantly reminded to treat women with respect and obey the law of chastity.

From a survey of the last three wards I've been in, about 2/3 of the youth of both sexes could each take some lessons on those respective topics.

[Traveler]

14 hours ago, Fether said:

Growing up, I have heard many complaints that the topic of modesty is heavily pushed on girls and not on guys, that guys seem to be exempt from it. From these people’s complaints, I haven’t heard any share how it should be taught (or if I have, it was unconvincing to the point that I don’t even remember)

If you were to give a full and complete lesson on modesty that includes Doctrine, principle, and applications, what all would you say are important? Would you say modesty is justly or unjustly emphasized to women?

Confucius say, "Woman with no principle, generate lots of interest."  (with almost everybody - men and women)

It would seem that "Men with no principle, are avoided.  (especially anyone with an IQ above room temperature) 

 

The Traveler

Edited June 10, 2021 by Traveler

[Vort]

11 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Confucius say, "Woman with no principle, generate lots of interest." 

Good one.

[Just_A_Guy]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

Confucius say, "Woman with no principle, generate lots of interest."  (with almost everybody - men and women)

It would seem that "Men with no principle, are avoided.  (especially anyone with an IQ above room temperature) 

 

The Traveler

In law school (not BYU) I was told “A good speech is like a good skirt—long enough to cover the basics, short enough to keep things interesting.”

Edited June 10, 2021 by Just_A_Guy

[LDSGator]

1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

In law school (not BYU) I was told “A good speech is like a good skirt—long enough to cover the basics, short enough to keep things interesting.”

That’s awesome. Lol 

[CV75]

18 hours ago, Fether said:

Growing up, I have heard many complaints that the topic of modesty is heavily pushed on girls and not on guys, that guys seem to be exempt from it. From these people’s complaints, I haven’t heard any share how it should be taught (or if I have, it was unconvincing to the point that I don’t even remember)

If you were to give a full and complete lesson on modesty that includes Doctrine, principle, and applications, what all would you say are important? Would you say modesty is justly or unjustly emphasized to women?

I think "For the Strength of Youth" pretty much covers it for youth and adults. I would say that the principle applies to all and that it begins with a modest (unassuming, moderate, proper and decent) spirit.

[Fether]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

I think "For the Strength of Youth" pretty much covers it for youth and adults. I would say that the principle applies to all and that it begins with a modest (unassuming, moderate, proper and decent) spirit.

Why would you suppose that so many feel like the only conversation being had on modesty is how women dress?

[Just_A_Guy]

A thought on the above (I hope I’m not hijacking anything) is:  humans like bright-line rules whose compliance is easily monitored.  @LDSGator and I can argue all day long about whether he’s being a self-centered drama queen.  [Gator, you know I love you, bud!]  But if he tells me “JAG, you’re wearing a sleeveless shirt” — well, either I am or I’m not; and the discussion is pretty much over.

It’s easy to take one or two of the most visible symptoms of a disease and, over time, conflate and equate them with the disease itself.

Edited June 10, 2021 by Just_A_Guy

[LDSGator]

24 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

@LDSGator and I can argue all day long about whether he’s being a self-centered drama queen.  [Gator, you know I love you, bud

You say that like it’s bad, honorable esquire. 

[laronius]

Modesty is not often addressed when teaching young men because when it comes to the law of chastity there are a half dozen other topics that are of greater importance to address in terms of what they may actually be struggling with. Where as for young women modesty is more likely to be an issue some struggle with and thus more likely to be addressed. It's as simple as that. The whole idea of trying to make things "fair" is one of Satan's tricks for distracting us from what matters most.

[Carborendum]

15 hours ago, Fether said:

Why would you suppose that so many feel like the only conversation being had on modesty is how women dress?

Who said "only"?

[LDSGator]

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Who said "only"?

I’m not saying I feel this way because I’m agnostic on the subject, but I have heard it before-that the topic of modesty is only used when talking about the way women dress. To be fair, I can't remember anytime being talked to about modesty, but like @laronius said, there were other things the men were talked to about. 

I might be naive here, but I think LDS women dress more modestly than anyone else. Asking “them” dress more modestly would require burkas! 

Edited June 11, 2021 by LDSGator

[Carborendum]

58 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

 the topic of modesty is only used when talking about the way women dress.

This could be taken one of two ways.  Perhaps you mean both/either.

As opposed to what?

1) The way men dress.
2) The way women do other things other than dress (and I'll add grooming).

ITEM 1:

BYU dress code (for example) has just about as much about men's dress and grooming standards as women do.  I'd say that women have "slightly" more because they have so much more stuff to deal with:  Makeup, dresses, skirts, pants, short (Men just have pants and shorts).  But apart from these practical differences, there's no more or less emphasis.

In church social events, I see a girl in a tank top and a boy in a tank top.  I tend to think less of the boy than the girl.  A tank top on a girl nowadays is pretty common.  It is not exactly considered sexual much nowadays.  But a boy wearing a tank top... that's just "uncouth" (unless you're at a gym or a sporting event, etc.  And many people make vocal remarks in this vein.

One deacon wore a T-shirt with some writing on it.  I can't remember what it was.  But it was no doubt one of your favorite hair-bands (maybe Foo Fighters) .  Anyway, the white shirt he wore over it was pretty thin. You could clearly see the logos, images, and writing.  So, the bishop made him go into the men's room and turn the T-shirt inside out and replace the white shirt on top before he could pass the sacrament.  And, yes, there was a bit of a stink rumoring around for that day.  The next day most people forgot about it -- just as they would a girl wearing a skimpy outfit.

ITEM 2:

What about other things:  How many lessons do we give on "pride vs humility"?  I certainly hear a lot of them -- probably because I need it more than most.  But outward showing of pride (bragging, insisting on being the center of attention, being a show off, etc.) is a big problem that permeates youth and adults alike, male and female.

I think that the emphasis on "provocative dress" is only thought to be emphasized in the general category of "modesty" because we don't normally think of these other traits as "modesty".  Regardless of how we think of them, they are indeed under the category of modesty.  They are indeed taught quite a bit.

Now we'll wait for confirmation bias to show everyone I was right.  

Edited June 11, 2021 by Carborendum

[LDSGator]

33 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

This could be taken one of two ways.  Perhaps you mean both/either.

As opposed to what?

1) The way men dress.
2) The way women do other things other than dress (and I'll add grooming).

ITEM 1:

BYU dress code (for example) has just about as much about men's dress and grooming standards as women do.  I'd say that women have "slightly" more because they have so much more stuff to deal with:  Makeup, dresses, skirts, pants, short (Men just have pants and shorts).  But apart from these practical differences, there's no more or less emphasis.

In church social events, I see a girl in a tank top and a boy in a tank top.  I tend to think less of the boy than the girl.  A tank top on a girl nowadays is pretty common.  It is not exactly considered sexual much nowadays.  But a boy wearing a tank top... that's just "uncouth" (unless you're at a gym or a sporting event, etc.  And many people make vocal remarks in this vein.

One deacon wore a T-shirt with some writing on it.  I can't remember what it was.  But it was no doubt one of your favorite hair-bands (maybe Foo Fighters) .  Anyway, the white shirt he wore over it was pretty thin. You could clearly see the logos, images, and writing.  So, the bishop made him go into the men's room and turn the T-shirt inside out and replace the white shirt on top before he could pass the sacrament.  And, yes, there was a bit of a stink rumoring around for that day.  The next day most people forgot about it -- just as they would a girl wearing a skimpy outfit.

ITEM 2:

What about other things:  How many lessons do we give on "pride vs humility"?  I certainly hear a lot of them -- probably because I need it more than most.  But outward showing of pride (bragging, insisting on being the center of attention, being a show off, etc.) is a big problem that permeates youth and adults alike, male and female.

I think that the emphasis on "provocative dress" is only thought to be emphasized in the general category of "modesty" because we don't normally think of these other traits as "modesty".  Regardless of how we think of them, they are indeed under the category of modesty.  They are indeed taught quite a bit.

Now we'll wait for confirmation bias to show everyone I was right.  

For the record, I don't like the Foo Fighters and no, they aren't a hair band. Now that the important things are out of the way....

All I'm saying is that I've heard some women, especially younger ones, complain that "modesty" seems to be only taught to the women. Like I said, that's what I have heard. That's it. Nothing more. 

I don't really have a dog in this fight, I guess. I'm not a woman (hormone pills haven't kicked in yet) and I don't have a daughter. So this isn't a hill I'm going to die on.

My thoughts though on only what you said about pride vs humility-

We take great "pride" when our son wins his soccer tournament and gives one another high fives, but when my son does it, he's showing sinful pride. When we get a new job that can support our families and give us a better lifestyle, that's fine, but when John down the road does it, he's being "worldly" and "ambitious". So this is both about "pride" and more interestingly, "envy." It's also about ego, which I freely admit is a brother to pride. 

To me, it "pride" becomes "sinful" and "immodest" when I take it to an extreme. You could assuredly beat me in chess, because I know very little about it. Nothing wrong with you beating me and saying, "Tim, I kicked your butt. Ha ha ha sucker." It becomes sinful when you say "Because I beat you in chess, I'm a better man than you." 

The dress thing I can't common on. I think it's foolish and incredibly risky for any man to comment on what a woman is wearing. If someone else wants to go down that road, knock yourself out. It's your sexual harassment lawsuit. 😉

Edited June 11, 2021 by LDSGator

[Carborendum]

45 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

For the record, I don't like the Foo Fighters and no, they aren't a hair band. Now that the important things are out of the way...

🤣😂

Quote

All I'm saying is that I've heard some women, especially younger ones, complain that "modesty" seems to be only taught to the women. Like I said, that's what I have heard. That's it. Nothing more. 

I don't really have a dog in this fight, I guess. I'm not a woman (hormone pills haven't kicked in yet) and I don't have a daughter. So this isn't a hill I'm going to die on.

Totally cool with that.  But when "lurkers" read your words, I'd like them to read mine as well.  I simply countered your experience with my experience.  Balance and all that.

Quote

My thoughts though on only what you said about pride vs humility-

We take great "pride" when our son wins his soccer tournament and gives one another high fives, but when my son does it, he's showing sinful pride. When we get a new job that can support our families and give us a better lifestyle, that's fine, but when John down the road does it, he's being "worldly" and "ambitious". So this is both about "pride" and more interestingly, "envy." It's also about ego, which I freely admit is a brother to pride. 

I'm not sure if I've ever witnessed that.  I have certainly heard of people of a particular political persuasion consider their own wealth to be "payback" but others' wealth to be (give whatever epithet you wish).  But I don't think I've ever seen or heard that from anyone in my circles.

Quote

To me, it "pride" becomes "sinful" and "immodest" when I take it to an extreme. You could assuredly beat me in chess, because I know very little about it. Nothing wrong with you beating me and saying, "Tim, I kicked your butt. Ha ha ha sucker." It becomes sinful when you say "Because I beat you in chess, I'm a better man than you." 

Absolutely.

Quote

The dress thing I can't common on. I think it's foolish and incredibly risky for any man to comment on what a woman is wearing. If someone else wants to go down that road, knock yourself out. It's your sexual harassment lawsuit. 😉

True.  And that actually brings up the double standard being bad all around.  Boys do things like that T-shirt thing I mentioned, and a one-on-one conversation can take place to the particular offender.  But a girl wears something provocative and, instead of a one-on-one conversation, we have a class lesson on the topic so as not to single out an individual.

Don't get me wrong.  I totally understand what you're saying.  And I see that reality.  But again... I don't have to like it.

BTW, my wife really appreciates it when I comment on what she's wearing.

Edited June 11, 2021 by Carborendum

[mirkwood]

44 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

For the record, I don't like the Foo Fighters and no, they aren't a hair band. Now that the important things are out of the way....

All I'm saying is that I've heard some women, especially younger ones, complain that "modesty" seems to be only taught to the women. Like I said, that's what I have heard. That's it. Nothing more. 

I don't really have a dog in this fight, I guess. I'm not a woman (hormone pills haven't kicked in yet) and I don't have a daughter. So this isn't a hill I'm going to die on.

My thoughts though on only what you said about pride vs humility-

We take great "pride" when our son wins his soccer tournament and gives one another high fives, but when my son does it, he's showing sinful pride. When we get a new job that can support our families and give us a better lifestyle, that's fine, but when John down the road does it, he's being "worldly" and "ambitious". So this is both about "pride" and more interestingly, "envy." It's also about ego, which I freely admit is a brother to pride. 

To me, it "pride" becomes "sinful" and "immodest" when I take it to an extreme. You could assuredly beat me in chess, because I know very little about it. Nothing wrong with you beating me and saying, "Tim, I kicked your butt. Ha ha ha sucker." It becomes sinful when you say "Because I beat you in chess, I'm a better man than you." 

The dress thing I can't common on. I think it's foolish and incredibly risky for any man to comment on what a woman is wearing. If someone else wants to go down that road, knock yourself out. It's your sexual harassment lawsuit. 😉

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 11, 2021 by mirkwood

[Carborendum]

1 minute ago, mirkwood said:

Quote

For the record, I don't like the Foo Fighters and no, they aren't a hair band. Now that the important things are out of the way....

 

So you're saying that @LDSGator secretly DOES like Foo Fighters, and they ARE a hair band. 

I get ya.  I smell what you're cooking.

[LDSGator]

6 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, okay. 

[LDSGator]

20 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

n't get me wrong.  I totally understand what you're saying.  And I see that reality.  But again... I don't have to like it.

I actually agree with a lot of what you said as well. So we’re not nearly as apart as some might think. 
 

You don’t have to like reality but you have to accept her terms. Agree fully. 
 

Hair bands generally ended pre-grunge. The Foo Fighters became popular after Cobain died. Therefore, they ain’t hair metal Son. 

Edited June 11, 2021 by LDSGator

[Carborendum]

16 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

Hair bands generally ended pre-grunge. The Foo Fighters became popular after Cobain died. Therefore, they ain’t hair metal Son. 

Truly, I have no idea what a hair band is other than they tend to have long hair.  I just happened to catch a picture of Foo Fighters trending and... well...

[LDSGator]

1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

Truly, I have no idea what a hair band is other than they tend to have long hair.  I just happened to catch a picture of Foo Fighters trending and... well...

Lol!! 
 

My class on hair metal to grunge to nu metal begins in ten minutes. You can have @mirkwood’s seat. He flunked out. His skills in the classroom are equal to his skills in Scrabble. 

Edited June 11, 2021 by LDSGator