Loose House Cats

[Traveler]

At the risk of coming across as an animal hater – I am starting this thread.  I believe I have great respect for nature and the balance of nature – especially the balance between predators and prey.

There are a number of cat owners in my neighborhood that think it appropriate to let their cat(s) run free unsupervised – especially at night.  In a suburb like mine a house cat is an apex predator which means that the cat can hunt and kill any animal in its territory.    Every once in a while a cat comes up missing and the owners drop by each house in search of their cat.  I make it a point to remind them that a cared for cat that is let loose is much more likely to go missing.

I have one neighbor that has cat proofed their yard so that it is impossible for their cat to escape the territory of their yard.  But that is only one cat owner.  I have another neighbor that has like 15 cats.  They are a prime cat lover?  It does seem to me that the vast majority of cat owners spurn responsibility for their cat.  Dog owners seem quite different.  Whenever a dog is away from its home it is always on a leash and most dog owners pick up what dogs leave behind.

One particular cat owner on our block brags about the tiny little dead presents their cat brings home to present to its master.  I asked how they would feel if the German shepherd in the neighborhood brought their kitty dead as a present to its master?  Did not go over very well.

Roaming cats do help keep down the population of rats and mice and our neighborhood does have rats and mice problems.  However, cats are indiscriminate in what they will hunt and kill.  Dogs on the other hand can be trained to hunt and kill only specific creatures.  For this reason dogs are better rat and mice killers than cats.

I live on the mountain bench but I have a nephew that lives farther up the mountain.  He tells me that any pet left outside (even in a fenced yard) in his neighborhood will last about a week before a chayote or a mountain lion will remove that pet from the food chain.  I have seen cougars and chayote’s in my neighborhood occasionally on my early morning bicycle rides.

I am also bewildered with those that confuse their pets with members of their family.  As a pet owner myself – I understand attachments to pets – I just do not understand such attachments as the same as the care and purpose of children especially on a spiritual plane. 

I have been under the impression that we are responsible for our pets.  When the time has come to put down my pets, I have felt it my responsibility to take care of that unpleasant duty as a responsible owner.  A while back our dog was very old and sick.  I took him to the vet and was informed that the best thing to do was to put down the dog for which the vet said he would take care of it.  Believing such and important and sacred duty was my responsibility – I told the vet I would take care of it myself.  To my surprise I was informed that such action was a felony in Utah and that I would be convicted, fined and sent to jail.  I guess society has shifted more than I realize – and I was not paying attention.

 

The Traveler

[NeuroTypical]

19 minutes ago, Traveler said:

To my surprise I was informed that such action was a felony in Utah and that I would be convicted, fined and sent to jail.  I guess society has shifted more than I realize – and I was not paying attention.

Don't believe everything you hear.  Especially from someone who charges money to do what you want to do yourself.  Ten bucks says if you call the vet asking for the law, you'll go away with no law cited.  There are animal cruelty laws, and firing guns in city limits laws, and perhaps laws about disposing of animal remains.  And just about every state has laws specifically allowing veterinarians and animal control and law enforcement to do it in certain ways.  But an actual felony law saying the penalty if a citizen ends the life of their own dog in a humane way?  Maybe in some states, although I can't find a single one.

As for neighborhood cats, what sort of indiscriminate non-rat killings are you worried about?  You're not much of an apex predator if you can't take down anything larger than a teacup poodle.

 

[LDSGator]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

To my surprise I was informed that such action was a felony in Utah and that I would be convicted, fined and sent to jail. 

@Traveler, I admire your dedication and sense of honor, but the local vet has far more experience (I hope) in euthanizing animals then you do. Take your poor dog to a vet where it’s nice and stress free for them. The days where you take the dog out back with a shotgun and play Ole’ Yeller are long gone. 

Edited May 3, 2023 by LDSGator

[NeuroTypical]

52 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

The days where you take the dog out back with a shotgun and play Ole’ Yeller are long gone. 

For city folk like you, perhaps.  For me, and everyone else outside city limits, that's far less true.  We have often had the vet put beloved critters down, but I've done it too.  I've lost track of all the animals we've buried on our property over the last 25 years.  Maybe 2/3rds of them died on their own, the rest I've helped along.  Wife usually wraps them up warm in a favorite blanket, and it's much less stressful than a car ride into a strange building.   Out here, we just text the neighbors who might hear the gunshot ahead of time, or maybe just post what's happening on the neighborhood facebook page.

Fun story:  Picture my wife and I, in the middle of a heated argument, digging a grave at midnight in the rain, for something that isn't dead yet.  It really happened.  For years I've been thinking about ways to work that into conversations at church, work, and with daughter's boyfriends.  

 

Edited May 3, 2023 by NeuroTypical

[Carborendum]

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

I am also bewildered with those that confuse their pets with members of their family.  As a pet owner myself – I understand attachments to pets – I just do not understand such attachments as the same as the care and purpose of children especially on a spiritual plane.

We had a cat which passed away a few years ago.  I believe it to have been the smartest cat I've ever seen. 

• We would open the door to her room every morning for family prayer.  As we gathered, she would join us in the living room, sat up, propped up on her front legs.
• When we bowed our heads, she crouched down in the upright laying-down position.
• As we said "Amen" she would straighten up on her front legs again.

So, yes, you could say we had a spiritual connection to the cat. 

One day we saw her crawling behind furniture and under furniture and as lethargic as if she had toted some MJ.  After several hours of this, we realized something was wrong.  We took her to the vet and she told us that the cat was not long for the earth.

The entire family had become quite fond of her.  She really did what she could to get along with everyone and do her level best to keep critters out of the house.

All the kids were gathered at the vet's office to say goodbye.  I think that was the only pet that I shed a tear over in my entire life.  And I'm more of a dog person.

This current cat?  Not so much.  But our current dog is just a really good dog.  I might cry over her too.

[LDSGator]

7 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

For city folk like you, perhaps.    

 

For the record, my town is only 7,000 people. But I see your point. 

[mirkwood]

4 hours ago, Traveler said:

Dog owners seem quite different.  Whenever a dog is away from its home it is always on a leash and most dog owners pick up what dogs leave behind.

Most definitely not my experience.  I even had a lady argue with me after her dog left his crap behind in my grass and started to walk away (with plastic bag clutched tightly in hand.)  I told her she could clean up her dog's crap out of my yard.  She turned and started to argue, but stopped as she saw the marked police car in the driveway, cleaned up and walked away in a huff.  She never walked her dog on my side of the street again.

 

I have frequently cleaned up after dogs have left their crap in my yard.  If I knew where the dog lived I would return it to their owners.  Maybe I should invest in Ring.

 

4 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Don't believe everything you hear.  Especially from someone who charges money to do what you want to do yourself.  Ten bucks says if you call the vet asking for the law, you'll go away with no law cited.  There are animal cruelty laws, and firing guns in city limits laws, and perhaps laws about disposing of animal remains.  And just about every state has laws specifically allowing veterinarians and animal control and law enforcement to do it in certain ways.  But an actual felony law saying the penalty if a citizen ends the life of their own dog in a humane way?  Maybe in some states, although I can't find a single one.

As for neighborhood cats, what sort of indiscriminate non-rat killings are you worried about?  You're not much of an apex predator if you can't take down anything larger than a teacup poodle.

 

He was informed correctly.  Would we arrest someone for putting down their pet on their own...probably not.

 

[Ironhold]

4 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

As for neighborhood cats, what sort of indiscriminate non-rat killings are you worried about?  You're not much of an apex predator if you can't take down anything larger than a teacup poodle.

 

Cats are one of nature's murder machines, right up there with dingoes, dolphins, and mantis shrimp. That is to say, they look cute and innocent until you have to start hiding bodies. 

Yes, Fluffy can and will go for the throat if so motivated, and that includes humans. This is why you don't get between a mama and her babies, or an adult cat of either gender and someone they've claimed as their own. 

It's actually a running gag among older tabletop role-playing gamers that in early editions of Dungeons & Dragons your average housecat could kill your average first-level player, a fitting testament to their destructive capability in real life. 

[zil2]

What planet do you people live on?

Meanwhile, I've been pondering getting a cat (have had many in the past, but have no pets right now).  This is going to sound bizarre (though not as bizarre as some of the above), but I was in the temple today, and had the distinct impression (during that part of the endowment that talks about animals having joy in their creation) that if I wanted a cat I should go ahead and get one.  I've been unsure, what with all the talk of the economy collapsing and the dollar becoming worthless and similar such things - it seemed like it might not be a financially responsible idea.  Apparently it's a good idea - if I want one.  So, I've started making a list of the things I'll need (to buy and to do) to provide a (safe) home for a kitty.  If I go forward, once I have him harness-trained, maybe I'll take him for a walk in @Traveler's neighborhood.

[scottyg]

I have never met anyone who had a problem with cats being out at night. Ours have never once slept indoors. I might hear one or two cat-fights each summer, but they all do a pretty good job marking their territory and steering clear of confrontation.

Never had anyone be bothered by someone else's cat and never had any animals harmed by them either. They do get a lot of fun out of chasing chickens around though, and one of ours loves to sleep in their nesting boxes. Ours do a great job of catching starlings and mice, and our neighbors without cats appreciate that as they stopped having mice too once we got cats.

[Ironhold]

33 minutes ago, zil2 said:

What planet do you people live on?

Meanwhile, I've been pondering getting a cat (have had many in the past, but have no pets right now).  This is going to sound bizarre (though not as bizarre as some of the above), but I was in the temple today, and had the distinct impression (during that part of the endowment that talks about animals having joy in their creation) that if I wanted a cat I should go ahead and get one.  I've been unsure, what with all the talk of the economy collapsing and the dollar becoming worthless and similar such things - it seemed like it might not be a financially responsible idea.  Apparently it's a good idea - if I want one.  So, I've started making a list of the things I'll need (to buy and to do) to provide a (safe) home for a kitty.  If I go forward, once I have him harness-trained, maybe I'll take him for a walk in @Traveler's neighborhood.

I've had cats since 1990. 

[LDSGator]

5 minutes ago, scottyg said:

I have never met anyone who had a problem with cats being out at night.

Hi, @scottyg I’m Gator. Nice to meet you. 
 

I hate cats and while I can’t stop you from doing this I think it’s cruel to leave them outside at night. Very cruel actually 

Edited May 4, 2023 by LDSGator

[mirkwood]

38 minutes ago, zil2 said:

What planet do you people live on?

Meanwhile, I've been pondering getting a cat (have had many in the past, but have no pets right now).  This is going to sound bizarre (though not as bizarre as some of the above), but I was in the temple today, and had the distinct impression (during that part of the endowment that talks about animals having joy in their creation) that if I wanted a cat I should go ahead and get one.  I've been unsure, what with all the talk of the economy collapsing and the dollar becoming worthless and similar such things - it seemed like it might not be a financially responsible idea.  Apparently it's a good idea - if I want one.  So, I've started making a list of the things I'll need (to buy and to do) to provide a (safe) home for a kitty.  If I go forward, once I have him harness-trained, maybe I'll take him for a walk in @Traveler's neighborhood.

You're welcome to come visit my cat first if you want to interact with one first.

 

[LDSGator]

2 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

You're welcome to come visit my cat first if you want to interact with one first.

Careful @zil2. Dude said that to @pam and no one has heard from her in several days. 

[zil2]

20 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

You're welcome to come visit my cat first if you want to interact with one first.

Thank you!  Fur rubs from me to kitty.

I was 7 or 8 (that would have been in the 1970s) when I got my first cat (as opposed to the feral mama cat, and her kittens, that lived outside our house for as long as I can remember, and before we moved).  From that point (7 or 8), I had cats almost constantly up until around 2008.  So, I'm more than a little familiar with them.

[Guest Godless]

When I was a kid my family adopted a kitten that had been born on our neighbor's porch. He was very insistent on being an outdoor cat, to the point of getting extremely insufferable if he wasn't allowed outside. We tried waiting out his protests, but they never stopped. We tried letting him out only on a leash. Nope. In the end we let him have his way so we could have some peace when he was home.

I'm not saying all outdoor cats are like that, I'm sure some of them just have lazy owners. But some cats just can't resist their natural urge to hunt.

Edited May 4, 2023 by Godless

[pam]

Ugh cats are evil.

[LDSGator]

10 minutes ago, pam said:

Ugh cats are evil.

That’s why I love you!

[pam]

1 hour ago, LDSGator said:

That’s why I love you!

Sure.  That's why you divorced me and banned me from the compound.

[Jamie123]

16 hours ago, Traveler said:

There are a number of cat owners in my neighborhood that think it appropriate to let their cat(s) run free unsupervised – especially at night.

Have you ever tried supervising a cat?

[popatr]

My cat has GREAT joy in going outside and it would seem cruel to me to deny him, even if his life is shorter and riskier because of it.

[scottyg]

17 hours ago, LDSGator said:

Hi, @scottyg I’m Gator. Nice to meet you. 
 

I hate cats and while I can’t stop you from doing this I think it’s cruel to leave them outside at night. Very cruel actually 

Out of curiosity, why cruel? Do you feel any kind of animal should be left outside?

[Vort]

1 hour ago, popatr said:

My cat has GREAT joy in going outside and it would seem cruel to me to deny him, even if his life is shorter and riskier because of it.

I'm definitely not a cat person, but this kind of thinking resonates with me.

[LDSGator]

1 hour ago, scottyg said:

Out of curiosity, why cruel? Do you feel any kind of animal should be left outside?

I think @NeuroTypical described it better than I can. I’m a suburban guy who likes the “city lifestyle”. I also hate cats, but I love dogs and own two. A mastiff and a Dalmatian. They are both indoor dogs and have never spent a night outside. Clarice, the Dal, runs with me in the cooler weather. 
 

My personal, subjective opinion is that indoor cats probably live longer and more comfortable lives because they don’t have to deal with predators, automobiles, etc. So yes, I think it’s cruel to let a cat to outside where they’ll be subjected to things that could kill them. 
 

I think it’s cruel to leave an animal outside, but let’s use common sense here. You probably shouldn’t let a horse live in your living room. Same with a llama or something. This might be unpopular but unless your dog is a Komondor or something I despise it when people leave dogs outside. Especially down here in Florida. So generally speaking yes I think it’s cruel (abnormally so, most dogs are pack animals) to leave an animal outside. 

Edited May 4, 2023 by LDSGator

[popatr]

21 minutes ago, Vort said:

I'm definitely not a cat person, but this kind of thinking resonates with me.

This touches tangentially to a discussion I recently had with my mother-in-law about some of my uncles who had recently deceased.  Both refused to act their age, and one in particular was climbing ladders and pruning trees long after it was really safe for him to do so, to the chagrin of some around him.  I admire that.  In my not very humble opinion, not even his own kids have a right to tell him (a ripe old man) to stop living in a way which was not dishonorable and brought him happiness.
In spite of his possibly risky choices he died naturally and in fact probably far later than if he had acquiesced and settled down in his later years.