Pattern of committment

[mikbone]

Are we ever going to move away from this?  

Is there any scriptorial basis for the pattern or is it just something that we picked up from the business world.

Almost every time missionaries come over for dinner, we get a message (which I usually like) and committment request.

And we spent an awkward 10 min in Elders Quorum trying to put together a team to clean tables and chairs in the cultural hall.

It just feels like manipulation.  

In my job I never use the committment pattern.

I explain the risks, benefits, and alternatives.  And then explain, in detail, the possible complications if the patients do not comply with the recommendations.  If the patients feel like they are part of the decision making process they are much more likely to follow the plan.  I essentially make the patient request that I perform surgery.  And any time a patient is hesitant or seems to not understand the possible consequences, I highly recommend a second opinion.  

I have had to tell multiple patients, that I was not smart enough to be their surgeon, and then I recommend other surgeons in the area...

 

Edited June 1, 2023 by mikbone

[Jane_Doe]

I don’t do the commitment pattern unless it is at work with a troublesome person I’m managing (where I am essentially ordering you to do it because I’m the boss and you give me a lot of guff).  Other than that it feels manipulative. 

[Vort]

3 hours ago, mikbone said:

Is there any scriptorial basis for the pattern or is it just something that we picked up from the business world.

I'm guessing the latter. There is nothing wrong with getting a commitment; that's solid communications. But requiring a verbal commitment before proceeding with the conversation feels, I don't know, not bullying, not quite manipulative, but something along those lines.

[Backroads]

8 hours ago, Vort said:

I'm guessing the latter. There is nothing wrong with getting a commitment; that's solid communications. But requiring a verbal commitment before proceeding with the conversation feels, I don't know, not bullying, not quite manipulative, but something along those lines.

Proceeding with the conversation, I think, is key. Many people don't necessarily have all the info you think they have and they want to proceed to, oh, get more information, roll more information around, etc.

I do a commitment pattern in my job (with actual paperwork) and it never works.

[Just_A_Guy]

If the LDS leadership feel that the commitment pattern is appropriate for missionary work (or was appropriate at some point in the past, even if it has now outlived its usefulness), then naturally I bow to their inspiration and authority.

But in my professional life (which in part involves persuading people to make difficult and drastic lifestyle changes when they are predisposed to strongly dislike me), I never [consciously] use it.  I suppose I use what pattern proponents would say are elements of it—kindness, empathy, unflinching honesty and realism, trying to be nonjudgmental, listening and restating/reflecting back to ensure clarity, etc.  But I don’t generally go into negotiations thinking “how can I get this person to do x?”; my mindset is more like “what is this person willing to do, and is there a chance I’ve come into the case with any incorrect preconceptions, and can we leave this conversation feeling a little less adversarial than when the conversation began?”

[Backroads]

33 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I suppose I use what pattern proponents would say are elements of it—kindness, empathy, unflinching honesty and realism, trying to be nonjudgmental, listening and restating/reflecting back to ensure clarity, etc.  But I don’t generally go into negotiations thinking “how can I get this person to do x?”; my mindset is more like “what is this person willing to do, and is there a chance I’ve come into the case with any incorrect preconceptions, and can we leave this conversation feeling a little less adversarial than when the conversation began?”

I feel like those really address the spirit of the goal.

[mikbone]

1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

If the LDS leadership feel that the commitment pattern is appropriate for missionary work (or was appropriate at some point in the past, even if it has now outlived its usefulness), then naturally I bow to their inspiration and authority.

Thats the rub.  Alot of church policy or quasi-policy was not promulgated from the top down.  It was fabricated by someone in the trenches and allowed to continue, likely without revelation.  

Eg. Military formality in passing the sacrament. 

And its understandable.  But shouldn’t we try to remove quasi policy that we suspect was uninspired.

When I was in the MTC the commitment pattern and even roll-playing made me uneasy.

In the temple, the the instruction and warnings are much more in line with how I give informed consent prior to surgery instead of the commitment pattern.  Way back when I first took out my endowment, it made an impression.

[CV75]

15 hours ago, mikbone said:

Are we ever going to move away from this?  

Is there any scriptorial basis for the pattern or is it just something that we picked up from the business world.

Almost every time missionaries come over for dinner, we get a message (which I usually like) and committment request.

And we spent an awkward 10 min in Elders Quorum trying to put together a team to clean tables and chairs in the cultural hall.

It just feels like manipulation.  

In my job I never use the committment pattern.

I explain the risks, benefits, and alternatives.  And then explain, in detail, the possible complications if the patients do not comply with the recommendations.  If the patients feel like they are part of the decision making process they are much more likely to follow the plan.  I essentially make the patient request that I perform surgery.  And any time a patient is hesitant or seems to not understand the possible consequences, I highly recommend a second opinion.  

I have had to tell multiple patients, that I was not smart enough to be their surgeon, and then I recommend other surgeons in the area...

 

Are you referring to this: 11: How Do I Help People Make and Keep Commitments? (churchofjesuschrist.org)? If so, we have Mosiah 18 as the template:

BEAR TESTIMONY FREQUENTLY: 1 And now, it came to pass that Alma, who had fled from the servants of king Noah, ^arepented of his sins and iniquities, and went about privately among the people, and began to teach the words of Abinadi—

2 Yea, concerning that which was to come, and also concerning the resurrection of the dead, and the ^aredemption of the people, which was to be brought to pass through the power, and sufferings, and ^bdeath of Christ, and his resurrection and ascension into heaven…

7 And it came to pass after many days there were a goodly number gathered together at the place of Mormon, to hear the words of Alma. Yea, all were gathered together that believed on his word, to hear him. And he did ^ateach them, and did preach unto them repentance, and redemption, and faith on the Lord.

INVITATION: 8 And it came to pass that he said unto them: Behold, here are the waters of Mormon (for thus were they called) and now, as ye are ^adesirous to come into the ^bfold of God, and to be called his people, and are willing to bear one another’s burdens, that they may be light;

9 Yea, and are ^awilling to mourn with those that ^bmourn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort, and to stand as ^cwitnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places that ye may be in, even until death, that ye may be redeemed of God, and be numbered with those of the ^dfirst resurrection, that ye may have eternal life—

DIRECT QUESTION: 10 Now I say unto you, if this be the desire of your hearts, what have you against being ^abaptized in the ^bname of the Lord, as a witness before him that ye have entered into a ^ccovenant with him, that ye will serve him and keep his commandments, [PROMISE PEOPLE BLESSINGS:] that he may pour out his Spirit more abundantly upon you?

11 And now when the people had heard these words, they clapped their hands for joy, and exclaimed: This is the desire of our hearts.

12 And now it came to pass that Alma took Helam, he being one of the first, and went and stood forth in the water, and cried, saying: O Lord, pour out thy Spirit upon thy servant, that he may do this work with holiness of heart.

[Vort]

43 minutes ago, mikbone said:

Eg. Military formality in passing the sacrament.

During my lifetime, I have witnessed deacons marching as in formation when passing the sacrament. I am happy to let the bishop take care of such things, though I will admit that I find quasi-military displays somewhat tasteless in sacrament meeting. Such a display is just that, a show, a production, something meant to catch the eye and impress. This is contrary to the Spirit that I believe should prevail during a sacrament meeting, and especially during the taking of the sacrament. But I have more often witnessed sloppy, unruly, noisy, or simply irreverent conduct in distributing the sacrament, which is just as distracting as a quasi-military display, if not moreso.

As I wrote, I'm happy to let the bishop deal with such issues and try to focus my thoughts on where they should be. Rarely is the sacrament distribution so irreverent that it forcibly distracts me. If I'm distracted, that is almost always because of me, not the deacons or the priests or the bishop or a crying baby or something else.

[zil2]

I suspect the problems in the Church include:

• An unwillingness to serve, even on the part of active members
• An unwillingness to make assignments, on the part of leadership (it's much easier to ask for volunteers)
• Not having close enough relationships to make service, assignments, volunteering, and even saying "no" easier
• Feelings of guilt, awkwardness, etc. when trying to make or decline assignments
• A false notion that the Church is a voluntary organization and therefore we shouldn't have to do anything except when we initiate the choice. (Yeah, sure, you can decide whether to come or go, whether to volunteer, whether to accept an assignment, but really, we have a hierarchy, we sustain people (perhaps too many forget what that means, or never thought about it), and it all operates under the rule of a King by covenants that we apparently haven't spent enough time thinking about.)

(Lest anyone think I'm condemning others, I include myself as part of the problem, but I am intentionally trying to overcome my own reluctance.)

[Carborendum]

15 hours ago, mikbone said:

In my job I never use the committment pattern.

You do.  You just don't realize it.

15 hours ago, mikbone said:

I explain the risks, benefits, and alternatives.  And then explain, in detail, the possible complications if the patients do not comply with the recommendations.  If the patients feel like they are part of the decision making process they are much more likely to follow the plan.  I essentially make the patient request that I perform surgery.  And any time a patient is hesitant or seems to not understand the possible consequences, I highly recommend a second opinion. 

This is the commitment pattern.  It is a little disjointed so, it may not be recognizable.  But it is the commitment pattern.

• You've built relationships of trust through societal structures rather than personal interaction.
  • You got a degree. 
  • You did your internship
  • You have a degree.
  • The government has certified that you have a level of confidence.
  • The structure of the medical facility enforces a level of authority which is imposed on people who voluntarily work there, and declares to the public that you are competent.
• You find out by asking about the patient's condition.  And it also furthers the relationships of trust.
  • If you ask other professionals certain questions (or order certain tests) that lets them know that you know what questions to ask for certain conditions.
  • If you ask patients, that lets them know you're familiar with their condition.
  • When you run tests, that lets them know that you've got physical evidence of the information you're providing to them.
  • My daughter felt that trust when the doctor started to tell her what her symptoms were without her having to explain it all to him.
• You help others feel and recognize the truth.
  • When you explain to them the situation, you back it up with some evidence, but by your authority, the trust they have in you, they feel the truth of what you say.
• You tell them the treatment and get them to commit to it.
  • Sometimes, nothing will work.
  • Sometimes, we're trying something that may work.
  • Sometimes, it is so simple and so common that your first try will 99% work
  • You provide the terms of the treatment and get them to agree to it.
• Then you set up a follow-up appointment to make sure it is working (for more substantial things).

You seem to be blinded by your cynicism to things like "the prosperity gospel" and the "evangelism of motivational speakers".  Many easily observable facts of life are not contained in scriptures.  It's simply an established, easily observable fact that beef is best served medium rare (and anyone who disagrees is a filthy commie racist ).

How many general authorities have said said something similar to "Our exaltation will depend largely on our ability to make and keep covenants."  And there is scriptural/doctrinal basis for this.

Our ability to influence other people (for good or evil) will depend largely on our ability to persuade them to make and keep commitments.  And if some mortal insights into how to do that more effectively can be effective, then why wouldn't we use them?

[zil2]

2 minutes ago, Vort said:

I have witnessed

  I have made it a habit to avoid watching the movements of those passing the Sacrament, lest I spend the whole time analyzing their efficiency / appropriateness...

[Carborendum]

5 minutes ago, Vort said:

During my lifetime, I have witnessed deacons marching as in formation when passing the sacrament. I am happy to let the bishop take care of such things, though I will admit that I find quasi-military displays somewhat tasteless in sacrament meeting. Such a display is just that, a show, a production, something meant to catch the eye and impress. This is contrary to the Spirit that I believe should prevail during a sacrament meeting, and especially during the taking of the sacrament. But I have more often witnessed sloppy, unruly, noisy, or simply irreverent conduct in distributing the sacrament, which is just as distracting as a quasi-military display, if not moreso.

As I wrote, I'm happy to let the bishop deal with such issues and try to focus my thoughts on where they should be. Rarely is the sacrament distribution so irreverent that it forcibly distracts me. If I'm distracted, that is almost always because of me, not the deacons or the priests or the bishop or a crying baby or something else.

This is a perfect example of what is really happening here.

If they go to one extreme (exact military efficiency) it does nothing to distract from the sacrament observance of the congregation.  They need only focus on the covenants they are renewing.  And they can easily do so, if that is what they are focused on.

If they go the the other extreme (rowdiness) we have difficulty focusing on our covenants.  That specifically does distract.

The only way the military efficiency distracts is when we choose to let our minds wander to the point of examining others instead of examining ourselves.

[mikbone]

12 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Are you referring to this: 11: How Do I Help People Make and Keep Commitments? (churchofjesuschrist.org)? If so, we have Mosiah 18 as the template:

Alma does a wonderful job.  And its obvious the the Holy Ghost is present.  He thoroughly explains the covenant and then gives them an If then opportunity.

The crowd, response is also noteworthy - clapping their hands for joy.

This past Sunday in Elders Quorum two elders were issued the challenge to: will you commit to organizing a EQ activity to clean the tables and chairs in the cultural hall.  I didn’t feel the spirit and many excuses were issued.  We wasted 5-10 minutes and nothing was accomplished. I’m not even sure why the challenge was issued.  Apparently a sister complained to the Bishop and the Bishop discussed the opportunity with the EQ president.

There was talk about bringing pressure washers to the church.  I’m pretty sure that pressure washing the chairs and tables might cause some problems with rusting and leaking.

The missionaries also shared a lesson about testimonies and issued a, will you commit to all bear your testimonies this Sunday.

[Vort]

4 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

It's simply an established, easily observable fact that beef is best served medium rare (and anyone who disagrees is a filthy commie racist ).

You mean blue rare, comrade.

You have a more expansive and, perhaps, more charitable view of what "the commitment pattern" means than I have. I was taught "the commitment pattern" as a series of steps designed to maneuver people into agreeing to do something, whether that's to be baptized or to stop smoking or to pray or just to meet with us again. I did try to use it, but I didn't like it, and after a while I got away from using it because it didn't feel honest. I believe that certain personality types could use "the commitment pattern" as it was taught to me as a normal, natural, honest part of their conversation. I think such personality types would rub many people wrong; those so taught would often feel like they're being sold something. But, as you note, if by "the commitment pattern" you just mean a pattern of honest communication, then of course there is nothing wrong with that.

[Vort]

4 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

The only way the military efficiency distracts is when we choose to let our minds wander to the point of examining others instead of examining ourselves.

True, but this can be said of anything. When the deacons are taught to do everything but click their boot heels, such as marching in step to the front, turning on the outside foot simultaneously, marching over two steps, turning simultaneously again to face the table, and then lift their trays to the priests as if presenting arms, I consider that a display and thus, by its nature, distracting. But of course you are right that we need not be distracted by it. I'll take ownership of my own faults, actions, and choices, but that doesn't mean that sacramental displays are therefore not inappropriate.

[Carborendum]

18 minutes ago, Vort said:

You mean blue rare, comrade.

Wipe its butt and serve it to you mooing?  I didn't know you were a commie?

18 minutes ago, Vort said:

You have a more expansive and, perhaps, more charitable view of what "the commitment pattern" means than I have.

I outlined the exact steps that were in the missionary guide when I was serving.

18 minutes ago, Vort said:

I was taught "the commitment pattern" as a series of steps designed to maneuver people into agreeing to do something, whether that's to be baptized or to stop smoking or to pray or just to meet with us again.

That was the problem that virtually everyone had with it.  But that was not what it was about.

I kept asking so many people how to make this actually work in real life.  And all of them went to manipulation.  But it was only much later when I entered the professional world did I begin to understand how interpersonal relationships actually worked.  And I was overwhelmed when I realized "this is the true commitment pattern."

18 minutes ago, Vort said:

But, as you note, if by "the commitment pattern" you just mean a pattern of honest communication, then of course there is nothing wrong with that.

Yes, that is it.  And that is where so many people (both missionaries and non-missionaries, LDS and non LDS) fail at it.  It is just about being the person that you need to be for people to trust you.  Some people found it easier to simply manipulate and deceive.  I was never big on that.  So, I failed for virtually my entire mission.  I never learned how to apply it.

But the handful of missionaries I knew who were without guile were always successful at building relationships of trust.

Edited June 1, 2023 by Carborendum

[zil2]

44 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

exact military efficiency

Really?  Like soldiers marching with sharp turns at the corners, synchronized steps and arm movements, constant gaze, perhaps even uniform attire...  My impression was that this was the thing being complained about - not simple efficiency.  When those passing the Sacrament know who covers where and they move quietly and do their duty effectively, that's not distracting.  But the lock-step marching and turning off out of the line to go to one's area of assignment like a military drill performance - that would be a show and a distraction.

[mikbone]

 

 https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1021&context=imwjournal

Excessive formalities in the sacrament.

Edited June 1, 2023 by mikbone

[laronius]

I remember being in a ward where during the priesthood opening exercises the ward mission leader took a softball and tossed it to a brother with the commitment to hand out a Book of Mormon and then report back, whereupon that brother would toss the ball to another brother and continue the process. One week it was an awkward young man who had previously received the ball and when he tossed the ball it wasn't to anyone in specifically but rather towards a group of men. I still chuckle thinking about all those good brothers practically diving out of the way to avoid ending up with that ball. It caused some laughter then and fortunately someone had the grace to pick the ball up off the ground. Later I thought about the embarrassment it must have caused those individuals and while it could be argued that they brought it upon themselves, that is not what we want people to feel. That's not how the Lord would motivate his followers.

On the other hand it is a divine principle to ask people to stretch themselves, even things that initially make them uncomfortable because that's how we grow. I have no problem with the commitment pattern. But there are right ways and wrong ways of employing it, depending on the person and commitment we are extending. And I think sometimes we don't give that enough thought.

[zil2]

5 minutes ago, laronius said:

On the other hand it is a divine principle to ask people to stretch themselves

Hugh Nibley, Approaching Zion, Chapter 3 "Zeal Without Knowledge":

Quote

...the very nature of man requires him to use his mind to capacity: "The mind or the intelligence which man possesses," says Joseph Smith, "is co-equal with God himself." What greater crime than the minimizing of such capacity? The Prophet continues, "All the minds and spirits that God ever sent into the world are susceptible of enlargement. . . . God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge." Expansion is the theme, and we cannot expand the boundaries unless we first reach those boundaries, which means exerting ourselves to the absolute limit.

(Bold is mine.  Nibley is brutal, but in an enabling and inspiring way.)

[CV75]

1 hour ago, mikbone said:

Alma does a wonderful job.  And its obvious the the Holy Ghost is present.  He thoroughly explains the covenant and then gives them an If then opportunity.

The crowd, response is also noteworthy - clapping their hands for joy.

This past Sunday in Elders Quorum two elders were issued the challenge to: will you commit to organizing a EQ activity to clean the tables and chairs in the cultural hall.  I didn’t feel the spirit and many excuses were issued.  We wasted 5-10 minutes and nothing was accomplished. I’m not even sure why the challenge was issued.  Apparently a sister complained to the Bishop and the Bishop discussed the opportunity with the EQ president.

There was talk about bringing pressure washers to the church.  I’m pretty sure that pressure washing the chairs and tables might cause some problems with rusting and leaking.

The missionaries also shared a lesson about testimonies and issued a, will you commit to all bear your testimonies this Sunday.

All that happened in Alma's group too, but a week later !!! 

[Carborendum]

2 hours ago, zil2 said:

My impression was that this was the thing being complained about - not simple efficiency. 

Yes, that was being complained about.  My point is that as long as no one is staring at them, it doesn't effect anyone else other than the Aaronic Priesthood. 

I'm assuming that such movements are not so visually distracting that it would grab the attention of someone blankly staring into space, or making thumping goose-stepping sounds.  Short of something along those lines, no, I don't see why it would be a distraction.  And I've never seen some display that is that distracting.

But I have seen deacons who are very rowdy and don't show any respect for the service they are performing.  And that does end up being visually distracting even when I'm staring into blank space.

[JohnsonJones]

Isn't the Commitment pattern something like this.

1.  Hey George...we're having a Bar-B-Que this Saturday.  I make some mean Bar-B-que ribs.  You should taste some.  I think you'd love 'em.

2.  So George...You seem interested.  It will be great to have you there.  The Bar-B-Que is going to be at 3PM this Saturday.  Will you be there?

3.  Great!  So remember...3PM...I'll see you there.  It's going to be GREAT!

I think that's the basic way it goes...isn't it?  It doesn't have to be so formal as some like to put it.  If this is what it is, I use it all the time!

It's a great way to point people in the directly you'd like them to go and confirm with them to do things.  It also is a great way to get them to commit to go or do something with you.

Sure, it may be based on business principles...but those principles are there because they work.

[Traveler]

Having read through this thread it is my personal opinion that commitment is at the foundation of achievement.   Preferences and expectations are a product of an intelligent species and are acquired or learned – usually through experiences.  My highest respect is for those that are committed.  I have difficulty having respect for anyone not committed to their craft.  I believe commitment is often referenced in scripture – but perhaps not by name.  I believe it was Jesus that said to be either hot or cold else he would spew that which was lukewarm out his mouth.  I do not see a significant difference between covenant and commitment.

I have speculated that not bowing one’s head to make a covenant (commitment to Christ) is the very meaning of the Book of Mormon phrase, “stiff nicked”.   Likewise, the greatest in heaven are those that are committed to others through service.   I really do not see that a call to repentance is any different that a call to commit or be committed to Christ.  

I do agree and believe that committing others to things one is not themselves committed to is one of the best examples of hypocrisy imaginable I have encountered.   I also understand that to a hammer everything looks like a nail.  I expect an engineer to believe their design will solve the problem at hand, a surgeon to believe they can fix what ills me with their surgical skills or the auto mechanic that believe if you bring your car to him – he will fix it.  I respect those that are committed to their craft – I see no reason to seek advice from someone expert that is not committed enough in themselves to believe that they have the answer to my question.  Regardless of my financial problem – I expect tithing to always be a step to financial recovery and a commitment to obedience to my covenants to always be a step to becoming one with G-d.  I do not understand how anyone can have faith in anything without commitment to that thing.

I love the commitment of Christ to my sins – that regardless of whatever sin or how deep into sin I have gone – he is committed to me and believes he will save me and stand with me in my greatest need and expects me to commit to Him.

 

The Traveler