Updated CES Standards

[Carborendum]

7 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

The fact that it remains in place all these years later suggests to me that perhaps the beard ban served, and continues to serve, a sort of “sifting function” at BYU that the General Authorities feel is desirable.

This reminds me of when Brigham Young told Ephraim Hanks to shave his beard.

[scottyg]

We have 2 bishops in our stake that wear full beards. They both have different reasons why. They have been asked to clean shave, but are not required to do so. Personally, I try to follow the example set by the brethren when in church settings. During the week I only shave prior to mid-week church meetings and on Sunday mornings. Most men don't shave every day as it causes razor burn. My poor neck looked like it had chicken pox from having to shave every day.

I don't understand why BYU allows moustaches but not beards though. Just wearing a moustache looks goofy on a majority of men, and I have never heard a young woman say she finds it attractive.

[Ironhold]

I started growing a mustache at the tail end of junior high because teachers kept confusing me with two other students who had glasses and similar builds. 

By the time I graduated high school, it had become part of my signature appearance. 

I went for a type of beard known as a "Van Dyke" (mustache and goatee combo, like Evil Spock) to further stand out from various individuals I kept getting confused with, and started growing out mutton chops because the skin near my ears is so thin that any nicks would just keep bleeding. 

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

If remember correctly from his biography, even 40 years ago as president of BYU, President Oaks expressed his belief that the beard ban was cultural, not theologically necessary; and that he personally would have preferred its removal.

The fact that it remains in place all these years later suggests to me that perhaps the beard ban served, and continues to serve, a sort of “sifting function” at BYU that the General Authorities feel is desirable.

You have to explain that to me. How does the beard ban sift anyone? You mean there are legitimately, otherwise well qualified, righteous, faithful, honorable men who, because they'd have to shave, didn't attend BYU? And that's good.......why?

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

Says the man with a highland cattle hanging off his chin.  

Here's my latest family pic: Please note........WRONG!!!   

But dang, look at how cute those stinking kids are!!!

[pam]

On 8/24/2023 at 5:23 PM, JohnsonJones said:

Does this cover BYU as well, or just CES?

Differences if it covers BYU would be that it does not dictate that shorts need to be at least knee length for starters.  It gives suggestions on clothing, but not a mandatory length of sleeves or shirts. 

The most widely known university that is part of the Church Educational System (CES) that has adopted the honor code is Brigham Young University (BYU), located in Provo, Utah.

BYU is part of the CES program.

[mordorbund]

On 8/24/2023 at 5:31 PM, mikbone said:

If worn, mustaches should be neatly trimmed.

BYU used to specify boundaries at the corner of the mouth. I'm looking forward to seeing the variety this opens up.

[Carborendum]

10 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Here's my latest family pic: Please note........WRONG!!!   

Interesting.  Cute kids and lovely wife.

Who was in that video you posted a few months ago?  You and a buddy were discussing a doctrinal matter or something on what looked like a podcast.  I assumed the one with the long grizzled beard was you.  Were you the other one?  I thought he also had a beard, but just shorter.

... at least I thought you said it was you in the video.

Edited August 29, 2023 by Carborendum

[The Folk Prophet]

36 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Interesting.  Cute kids and lovely wife.

Who was in that video you posted a few months ago?  You and a buddy were discussing a doctrinal matter or something on what looked like a podcast.  I assumed the one with the long grizzled beard was you.  Were you the other one?  I thought he also had a beard, but just shorter.

... at least I thought you said it was you in the video.

Yeah. I had a beard for a few years there. I took a shift as an ordinance worker at the temple though, so...

[Carborendum]

34 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Yeah. I had a beard for a few years there. I took a shift as an ordinance worker at the temple though, so...

FWIW:  I like this look better than the long beard. 

[mikbone]

13 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Here's my latest family pic: Please note........WRONG!!!   

But dang, look at how cute those stinking kids are!!!

There are 3-4 women in my ward with the edgy shaved half of the head look.

Kinda makes a statement.

[NeuroTypical]

Before and after pix.   Watch out ladies.

 

(Full disclosure, I've had both daughters and one wife experiment with that shaved rebel thing.)

Edited August 29, 2023 by NeuroTypical

[zil2]

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

Full disclosure, I've had both daughters and one wife experiment with that shaved rebel thing.

Only one wife?  None of the others?

[Vort]

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

Before and after pix.   Watch out ladies.

 

(Full disclosure, I've had both daughters and one wife experiment with that shaved rebel thing.)

Did they experiment with stapling their eyebrow in place, as in the picture?

[Ironhold]

2 hours ago, Vort said:

Did they experiment with stapling their eyebrow in place, as in the picture?

That's actually supposed to be a piercing. 

Another trendy thing is for people to pierce various parts of their body. Eyelids. Lips. Nose. Tongue. Genitals & reproductive organs. Basically, anywhere that the person operating the piercing machine can successfully pierce with the device folks will put a hole in. 

And it's not just studs they'll put in place, either. I'm talking massive bits and bobs, and some folks who get their ears pierced will have devices put in place to stretch their earlobes out. I remember seeing people who had these stretched earlobes use the holes produced by the devices to mount their wireless headphones. 

[Traveler]

On 8/28/2023 at 4:38 PM, Vort said:

I can, and I do.

There are many cultures, including ours, where a woman would never willingly shave her head bald. Covenant women might do so if asked to, only because they feel obligated by their covenants; but unless there is a pressing reason for them to do so, I think it would be unwise to require or even strongly suggest that they shave their heads.

Likewise, some men might feel that shaving their beards strikes at the very foundation of their open display of masculinity, and might thereby hesitate to be clean-shaven. In the same way as a woman being asked to shave her head bald, I think that requiring or even suggesting that a man should be clean-shaven should generally be done only when there is a pressing reason to do so. I think it's plausibly arguable that in the counterculture attitudes of the 1960s and 1970s, it was reasonable to ask men holding certain positions (such as missionaries or men in leadership positions) to be clean-shaven. Please note that, at least to my knowledge, temple recommends have never been generally denied to men who wore beards or other facial hair, even in the 1960s and '70s.

Today, I think that such counterculture elements would be far more likely to include things like gauged-out earlobes, facial or other tattoos, pink or green hair, and so forth. If such things are to be considered acceptable or at least not something the leadership counsels people about, I cannot imagine that wearing any sort of facial hair would be.

Thank you @Vort .  It is always of great value to me to deal with opinions different from my own.  I also believe life is a great teacher.  Growing up in a family of high achievers – I did not stand out very well.  But I did learn that first impressions are important in life.  I learned very quickly in the army that looking the part is the first step in living the part.  The anti-hero has always been a part of post WWII culture in the west.  However, my experience in life is that no one will take you seriously if you do not take yourself seriously.

Strange as it may seem – if you look serious, you will be expected to be serious and you will be taken seriously.  This is a great problem for me – If there is no example of what is serious – I am not good at making something up.  I like the idea of uniforms and standards.  I love it that there is a standard dress for the temple.  Each item I make sure is clean and pressed and I take care to insure everything fits and is worn with as much dignity as I can muster.   Often others are waiting for me to finish – I do not understand any reason to hurry.

Two things – First: I would not deny anyone that is worthy to come to the temple regardless of what they are wearing or how they have prepared themselves.   Since worthiness is decided by Bishops and Stake Presidents – anyone that shows up with a recommend, I assume is worthy.

Second: If I am presenting myself as a Saint of G-d I will do my upmost to prepare – not just to look the part but the be the part.  For me, the styles and fashions of the world and my appearance to the world mean little.  If there is the slightest hint, especially from the spirit, I will act upon that – over my own opinion or the accolades of others.  I have received marvelous manifestations while attending the temple that I do not believe I would have received without preparations – both physical and spiritual.

If anyone was to ask me – and no one has addressed me so in the thread.  I would advise that whatever they are ask to do to present themselves before G-d – that they go beyond what was asked.  In the words of my father – “Never settle for the minimal standard.”

 

The Traveler

[Just_A_Guy]

On 8/28/2023 at 6:37 PM, The Folk Prophet said:

You have to explain that to me. How does the beard ban sift anyone? You mean there are legitimately, otherwise well qualified, righteous, faithful, honorable men who, because they'd have to shave, didn't attend BYU? And that's good.......why?

No, not at all.  And maybe “sifting” wasn’t quite the right word.  But within the church, I find that a person’s getting worked up about relatively trivial GA-imposed policies that they may not understand, or even don’t agree with, tends to be a sort of canary-in-the-coal-mine indicating whether or not that person will be able to develop a healthy and productive approach to deeper spiritual struggles.

Plus, tuition at BYU is stupidly cheap.  If it happens to have a couple of stupid policies in return, then IMHO the students there can suck it up and thank the Church for its largesse.

[The Folk Prophet]

9 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

No, not at all.  And maybe “sifting” wasn’t quite the right word.  But within the church, I find that a person’s getting worked up about relatively trivial GA-imposed policies that they may not understand, or even don’t agree with, tends to be a sort of canary-in-the-coal-mine indicating whether or not that person will be able to develop a healthy and productive approach to deeper spiritual struggles.

Plus, tuition at BYU is stupidly cheap.  If it happens to have a couple of stupid policies in return, then IMHO the students there can suck it up and thank the Church for its largesse.

I don't disagree with some of the theoretical ideas you present here. I just don't find it practical. Beards just aren't a canary in a coal mine any longer. They used to be. They aren't any more. They just aren't a strong social statement any longer. (Not a basic, well trimmed one, at least.)

And...from personal experience, I don't understand or agree with the beard thing...and so I'm personally highly offended by your implications!!   

I'm kidding, of course.

But the point is still that I don't fully agree that not understanding or disagreeing with things is relative to a healthy and productive approach to deeper spiritual struggles. I'd say there are a great many righteous, faithful, and committed men who don't understand or agree with the no beard thing.

In the relative grand scheme of things, none of us fully understand the things of God. Hence...obedience. But we have plenty of humble obedience to get behind without arbitrary "drift" obedience issues that become as commandments when they are nothing of the sort. That sort of thing, to my best thinking, tends to lead more to arrogance, holier-than-thou-ness, and blind robotic-ness rather than true humility, faith and obedience. Yes...I'm letting my anti-BYU bias bleed through a bit here... I guess I've just known too many robotic, holier-than-thou, arrogant people reared of BYU.

You know I've argued strongly for obedience. Even with these sorts of things. I still do. Just wear a white shirt to church! But with the changes happening with a lot of policies and approaches where they're leaning more to "follow the Spirit" I'm just surprised at this one.

I accept that my point of view on the matter is from a place of zero purview. It's just my view. I support the brethren. I support BYU. I support the no beard thing. I just have an opinion on it, which is surprised.

[zil2]

15 hours ago, Ironhold said:

That's actually supposed to be a piercing. 

He was being snarky.

[Carborendum]

I have a question that is tangentially related to the issue of shaving of beards and heads and tattoos.

When we pray in our culture, we remove headgear (where reasonably possible).  But I just noticed my daughter doing so at dinner last night. This actually struck me as odd.  Part of it was because she had her long hair collected in the "hole" at the back of the baseball cap she had on.  Removing it took some effort to remove.  Replacing it also took some effort.

I remember in older generations women never removed headgear while men always did.  The temple... is a different story.  Similarly, other cultures (like orthodox Jews) keep hats on all the time.  Buddhist monks always shave their heads daily as a sign of piety, while other cultures will avoid cutting their hair at all.

So, the question is:

TODAY, in the United States, among Latter-day Saints, is it considered impolite if a female chooses not to remove headgear for a prayer?

[mikbone]

3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

TODAY, in the United States, among Latter-day Saints, is it considered impolite if a female chooses not to remove headgear for a prayer?

Baseball caps yeah.  I never seen a sister in the chapel with a baseball cap.

[Carborendum]

3 minutes ago, mikbone said:

Baseball caps yeah.  I never seen a sister in the chapel with a baseball cap.

I'd agree that ANYone wearing a baseball cap in sacrament meeting is most likely committing a faux pas (let alone taking it off or leaving it on during prayer). The example I gave was at the dinner table. 

Edited August 30, 2023 by Carborendum

[mikbone]

Just now, Carborendum said:

I'd agree that ANYone wearing a baseball cap in sacrament meeting is most likely committing a faux pas. The example I gave was at the dinner table. 

Easter bonnets, hats are Kosher to keep on IMHO.  Probably lots of time and pins used to hold some of those in place.

Hats are super cool in the temple.

[The Folk Prophet]

46 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I'd agree that ANYone wearing a baseball cap in sacrament meeting is most likely committing a faux pas (let alone taking it off or leaving it on during prayer). The example I gave was at the dinner table. 

I don't think very many would object to a sister leaving a hat or cap on during a prayer. But I also fully understand how a sister would remove it.  As @mikbone pounted out, pins would hold hats in place. When it's a cap it's a different issue. But as you said, with the longer hair going through, then it becomes a bigger issue again so...... ??