Is Faith in Jesus Christ More Important for our Salvation than the Condition of our Hearts?

[clbent04]

I've been thinking about this question the last several months. Is faith in Jesus Christ more important for our salvation than the condition of our hearts?

If it is more important, why do you think it is besides your belief that God said so?

One of my thoughts is that the condition of the heart is more important for our salvation since I believe Jesus is all things related to truth and light, and that we don't truly improve unless it's through Him regardless of how much we believe in a God named Jesus Christ.

If the answer is some of us will be saved and others perish based on being able to name the correct God where credit is due absent of the condition of our hearts, what is the logical basis for that?

Here's what Chat GPT has to say about the matter:

Is faith in Jesus Christ more important for our salvation than the condition of our hearts?

Quote

The question you're asking touches upon theological beliefs and interpretations that can vary among different Christian denominations and individuals. In Christianity, the concept of salvation and the role of faith in Jesus Christ and the condition of one's heart are significant theological topics.

In many Christian traditions, faith in Jesus Christ is considered essential for salvation. This belief is often based on passages from the Bible, such as John 3:16, which states, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." According to this perspective, one's faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior is seen as the means by which a person receives salvation.

However, the condition of one's heart is also emphasized in Christian theology. A sincere and repentant heart, along with a life transformed by faith, is considered important by many Christians. This is often based on passages like Psalm 51:17, which says, "My sacrifice, O God, is a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart you, God, will not despise."

Different Christian denominations may place varying degrees of emphasis on these aspects and may have different interpretations of how they interact in the process of salvation. Some may argue that genuine faith in Jesus Christ naturally leads to a transformed heart and life, while others may place more emphasis on specific acts of repentance and obedience.

Ultimately, the importance of faith in Jesus Christ versus the condition of one's heart for salvation can vary among Christian individuals and groups. It's essential to remember that these theological questions can be matters of deep theological debate and personal belief within Christianity. If you are seeking guidance or clarification on this topic, it may be helpful to consult with a trusted pastor, theologian, or scholar within your specific Christian tradition.

[mikbone]

42 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

 

I've been thinking about this question the last several months. Is faith in Jesus Christ more important for our salvation than the condition of our hearts?

 

Faith in Jesus Christ is the first principle of the gospel.  Faith is an object of power and motivation.  When we have faith in Jesus Christ we desire to learn more about him. We want to become more like him.  

True faith leads to a broken heart and contrite spirit which in turn allows us to repent and witness the power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

Everyone will be saved from physical death - eventually.  But only those who truly desire to become like Jesus Christ by following the covenant path will receive salvation from spiritual death.

Faith that does not lead to a broken heart and contrite spirit is not really Faith in Jesus Christ.

A broken heart and contrite spirit that does not lead to partaking of the power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ can’t help us either.

There are many times when people have a broken heart.  Look at what is happening in Israel and Gaza right now.  

There is a well demarcated path.  Those who choose to trail-blaze their own path via ignorance, pride, boredom, or (choose your favorite sin / distraction here), will never find true salvation.

Edited October 9, 2023 by mikbone

[clbent04]

3 minutes ago, mikbone said:

True faith leads to a broken heart and contrite spirit which in turn allows us to repent and witness the power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

In order to have a broken heart and contrite spirit in any context, do you have to acknowledge Jesus Christ?

[mikbone]

12 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

In order to have a broken heart and contrite spirit in any context, do you have to acknowledge Jesus Christ?

No, look at the people in Gaza and Israel that lost loved ones and property.  They have broken hearts and initially many do have contrite spirits.  They want the war to end and their family, and property back as well as prosperity.  Then they let hate into their soul and that contrite spirit turns into a spirit of war and revenge.

 

Edited October 9, 2023 by mikbone

[mikbone]

I mean, if I want a well forged steel blade, can I substitute clay for iron, a refrigerator for a forge, or a pillow for a hammer?

 

[NeuroTypical]

A broken heart and contrite spirit is a condition humans occasionally find themselves in, sometimes it is an unexpected condition.  Having faith in Christ is more like choosing to exercise a muscle, where you notice as you get stronger or weaker.

Not everyone with a BH&CS ends up walking a path towards Christ.  But if you've got those, your path might be easier/quicker/more fulfilling.  Another way to put it:  It is possible to be dragged kicking and screaming against your will into faith in Christ, but someone with a BH&CS is ready to stop kicking and start down the path.

What a cool thing to think about!  Thanks @clbent04!

Edited October 9, 2023 by NeuroTypical

[Carborendum]

1 hour ago, mikbone said:

I mean, if I want a well forged steel blade, can I substitute clay for iron, a refrigerator for a forge, or a pillow for a hammer?

The point you seem to be making is at least in the general direction as my position on the topic.

The reason why "Faith in Christ" and "Broken hearts and contrite spirits" are intertwined is that we can believe that we have a broken heart about anything.

I don't intend for this to be political, but the recent attacks on Israel is a perfect example.  Several public figures have presented sympathy (broken hearts) in favor of Israel.  Others have presented sympathy for Palestinians.  For the most part, a lot of it is not about "the truth" being hurt.  It is not about "our fellow human beings" being hurt.  It is not about the generic "injustice" of anything.  They are "broken hearted" over a political position.

Only true faith in Christ with a truly broken heart over things that Jesus, Himself, would weep over is where we need to place our hearts.

Essentially, the broken heart and contrite spirit is the mentality, the spiritual understanding of what we're doing that is not in line with what the Lord wants for us.  This needs to be done in such a way that leads us to repentance.  And we can only identify that with clarity if we have faith in Christ.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Carborendum

[clbent04]

22 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

A broken heart and contrite spirit is a condition humans occasionally find themselves in, sometimes it is an unexpected condition.  Having faith in Christ is more like choosing to exercise a muscle, where you notice as you get stronger or weaker.

If we replaced faith in Jesus Christ with faith in "ideals of love, compassion, forgiveness...", would that have any impact on our salvation? Do we need to specifically acknowledge the name Jesus Christ?

If it does have an impact on our salvation, why would that be the case? What would be so important in specifically acknowledging the name Jesus Christ in the good that we do? Why would this have any significant bearing at all in regards to our eternal welfare? 

What if the name Jesus Christ is meant to be used interchangeably with love, compassion, forgiveness... What if God sees the world and its many faiths and walks of life very differently from the interpretation I had growing up as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint?

Edited October 9, 2023 by clbent04

[clbent04]

2 hours ago, mikbone said:

True faith leads to a broken heart and contrite spirit which in turn allows us to repent and witness the power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

I agree. But can the Atonement not work in our lives regardless if we specifically acknowledge the name Jesus Christ?

[zil2]

On 10/9/2023 at 8:34 AM, clbent04 said:

Here's what Chat GPT has to say

Here's what President Nelson had to say:

Quote

There is no end to the adversary’s deceptions. Please be prepared. Never take counsel from those who do not believe. Seek guidance from voices you can trust —from prophets, seers, and revelators and from the whisperings of the Holy Ghost, who “will show unto you all things what ye should do.” Please do the spiritual work to increase your capacity to receive personal revelation.

Here is what Jesus had to say:

Quote

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Matthew 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

 

On 10/9/2023 at 11:30 AM, clbent04 said:

But can the Atonement not work in our lives regardless if we specifically acknowledge the name Jesus Christ?

First, the Atonement is something Jesus Christ did.  It is not a sentient entity capable of acting independently, it is not a series of rules, it is not a magical incantation or source of energy.  It was a collection of acts and events which Christ carried out and endured.  Without Christ, there is no "Atonement" - they cannot be separated.  I refer you again to President Nelson:

Quote

There is no amorphous entity called “the Atonement” upon which we may call for succor, healing, forgiveness, or power. Jesus Christ is the source. Sacred terms such as Atonement and Resurrection describe what the Savior did, according to the Father’s plan, so that we may live with hope in this life and gain eternal life in the world to come. The Savior’s atoning sacrifice—the central act of all human history—is best understood and appreciated when we expressly and clearly connect it to Him.

Here is what King Benjamin had to say (I recommend reading the whole chapter if not the whole speech):

Quote

Mosiah 5:8 And under this head ye are made free, and there is no other head whereby ye can be made free. There is no other name given whereby salvation cometh; therefore, I would that ye should take upon you the name of Christ, all you that have entered into the covenant with God that ye should be obedient unto the end of your lives.

Here is what Alma had to say:

Quote

Alma 5:38 Behold, I say unto you, that the good shepherd doth call you; yea, and in his own name he doth call you, which is the name of Christ; and if ye will not hearken unto the voice of the good shepherd, to the name by which ye are called, behold, ye are not the sheep of the good shepherd.

@mikbone had it right - faith in Christ cannot be separated from the condition of your heart - it is a condition of your heart.

On 10/9/2023 at 11:26 AM, clbent04 said:

If it does have an impact on our salvation, why would that be the case? What would be so important in specifically acknowledging the name Jesus Christ in the good that we do? Why would this have any significant bearing at all in regards to our eternal welfare absent of the condition of our hearts? 

As previously stated, there is no disconnecting faith in Christ from the condition of you heart.  But why?  Because the Atonement doesn't save, obedience doesn't save, ordinances don't save, justice and mercy don't save.  Jesus Christ saves.  Even those like little children who die before the age of accountability are saved by Jesus Christ.  Those who die without the law and are judged based on what they understood and did, who never heard the name Jesus Christ, are still saved by Jesus Christ (Moroni 8:22) (ETA: Also Mosiah 3:11). He is the way - the only way and the only name.  There is no salvation without him.

I will post separately about broken heart and contrite spirit.

Edited October 11, 2023 by zil2

[Vort]

3 hours ago, clbent04 said:

I've been thinking about this question the last several months. Is faith in Jesus Christ more important for our salvation than the condition of our hearts?

Is oxygenation of our blood more important than breathing? The question itself is defective. "Faith in Jesus Christ" and "the condition of our hearts" are not separate or separable phenomena. Faith in Christ determines the condition of one's heart, and the condition of one's heart determines the ability to exercise faith in Christ.

FTR, the answer is "faith in Christ". That is the important determiner. On this point, the scriptures are clear.

[clbent04]

20 minutes ago, zil2 said:

There is no amorphous entity called “the Atonement” upon which we may call for succor, healing, forgiveness, or power. Jesus Christ is the source. Sacred terms such as Atonement and Resurrection describe what the Savior did, according to the Father’s plan, so that we may live with hope in this life and gain eternal life in the world to come. The Savior’s atoning sacrifice—the central act of all human history—is best understood and appreciated when we expressly and clearly connect it to Him.

@zil2 thank you for sharing this quote by President Nelson. This touches on part of what I was contemplating, namely, why it makes a difference - "The Savior’s atoning sacrifice—the central act of all human history—is best understood and appreciated when we expressly and clearly connect it to Him." 

Edited October 9, 2023 by clbent04

[CV75]

3 hours ago, clbent04 said:

I've been thinking about this question the last several months. Is faith in Jesus Christ more important for our salvation than the condition of our hearts?

If it is more important, why do you think it is besides your belief that God said so?

One of my thoughts is that the condition of the heart is more important for our salvation since I believe Jesus is all things related to truth and light, and that we don't truly improve unless it's through Him regardless of how much we believe in a God named Jesus Christ.

If the answer is some of us will be saved and others perish based on being able to name the correct God where credit is due absent of the condition of our hearts, what is the logical basis for that?

Here's what Chat GPT has to say about the matter:

Is faith in Jesus Christ more important for our salvation than the condition of our hearts?

The Parable of the Sower reminds me of the condition of the heart (mind, spirit) into which the seed (the word of God, Alma 32) is planted. Faith, belief and the desire to believe require a place (the heart) in which to operate and are prompted, or awakened and aroused, by choosing to heed the light of Christ as it shines within our heart. This capacity can be reduced through disobedience and tradition as the quality of the soil is affected.

[NeuroTypical]

44 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

I agree. But can the Atonement not work in our lives regardless if we specifically acknowledge the name Jesus Christ?

Ooh!  Relevant story!

For 2 years of college at the University of Utah, I parked in handicap parking spaces despite the fact that I wasn't handicapped.  My parents were letting me drive their old station wagon to college, and it had handicap plates because of my mother's disability.  When I went to purchase a parking tag like every other student, they refused to sell me one, because I had those plates.  The only choice they gave me was use the plates and park for free, or find another way to college.  And they would ticket me if I used a non-handicapped space, because I didn't have a permit.

The University of Utah was (and still is, from what I can tell), a parking nightmare, so it was really nice to be treated like I was special and have prime access to the exalted spots right in front of wherever my classes happened to be.  My only virtue in this case, was I refused to use a spot unless there were at least 2 other handicapped spots available at the time I parked.  

 

Anyway, if you think heaven is as poorly run as the UofU student parking office, then it's totally possible to have the atonement work in your life if you never acknowledge Jesus Christ.

Edited October 9, 2023 by NeuroTypical

[prisonchaplain]

There's a cheezy acronym that's meant to define atonement: At-One-Ment with Christ. If there is any validity to it at all then faith in Christ would be more important than the condition of the heart. Many people repent of their sins only to commit worse ones in the name of that repentance.

"Why you do the terrible deed?"

"Because I felt bad about _________________, and thought this would make up for it." 

[clbent04]

24 minutes ago, Vort said:

Is oxygenation of our blood more important than breathing? The question itself is defective. "Faith in Jesus Christ" and "the condition of our hearts" are not separate or separable phenomena. Faith in Christ determines the condition of one's heart, and the condition of one's heart determines the ability to exercise faith in Christ.

FTR, the answer is "faith in Christ". That is the important determiner. On this point, the scriptures are clear.

I'm questioning what "faith in Christ" really means. I think it's more comprehensive than simply being confined to, "I believe in someone named Jesus Christ as my Savior." 

There's not a specific phrase or statement that we need to say in order to meet the criteria that we have faith in Christ. My opinion is we don't even need to specifically acknowledge the name Jesus Christ in order to have faith in Him since Jesus Christ is God and God is all things related to truth and light. If we seek after good things, we seek Jesus Christ. 

Does it even matter to our salvation that we give credit specifically to someone named Jesus Christ? I don't think so. God has many names: Alpha and Omega, Messiah, Jehovah, Immanuel, The Word, Our Dwelling Place, Lord Master... Is God not all truth and light?

I think the purpose of specifically naming Jesus Christ has more to do with better understanding and appreciating the Savior's atoning sacrifice than it has to do with anything related to our salvation.

This President Nelson quote that @zil2 shared makes sense to me in this regard:

Quote

There is no amorphous entity called “the Atonement” upon which we may call for succor, healing, forgiveness, or power. Jesus Christ is the source. Sacred terms such as Atonement and Resurrection describe what the Savior did, according to the Father’s plan, so that we may live with hope in this life and gain eternal life in the world to come. The Savior’s atoning sacrifice—the central act of all human history—is best understood and appreciated when we expressly and clearly connect it to Him.

[The Folk Prophet]

4 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

I'm questioning what "faith in Christ" really means. I think it's more comprehensive than simply being confined to, "I believe in someone named Jesus Christ as my Savior." 

That's not what faith means. (Meaning it is more comprehensive)

Edited October 9, 2023 by The Folk Prophet

[zil2]

2 hours ago, clbent04 said:

In order to have a broken heart and contrite spirit in any context, do you have to acknowledge Jesus Christ?

I will disagree with the others here and say "yes".  But it's all about what these two phrases ("broken heart" and "contrite spirit") mean.  I submit that there's the dictionary definition, which doesn't require Christ, and there's the scriptural definition, which does require Christ.  I'm going to discuss them in reverse:

"Contrite spirit" is a little easier - it simply means "repentant":

Quote

feeling or expressing remorse or penitence; affected by guilt.

Now, in the world, I can feel those things and "repent", but in scripture, repentance involves God and Jesus Christ - it is always turning back to God and asking his forgiveness, which is offered because of Christ (and Christ can extend forgiveness because he carried out the Atonement).  Even if scripture teaches to go and be reconciled with your brother first (for example), repentance still has to involve God the Father and Jesus Christ.

Next comes "broken heart".  I submit that this does not mean "heartbroken".  People are "heartbroken" when they break up with their girlfriend or when their beloved pet dies.  While not unrelated, I do not believe this is what scripture is talking about.  So, let's look at some definitions of "broken" (all from Merriam-Webster):

• violently separated into parts
• damaged or altered by or as if by breaking
• disrupted by change
• made weak or infirm
• subdued completely
• reduced in rank
• cut off : disconnected
• imperfectly spoken or written
• not complete or full
• disunited by divorce, separation, or desertion of one parent

These aren't all, but they're the ones I can loosely link to the scriptural meaning.  That one in bold is the most important.  Neither this dictionary nor google's used the example they should have - namely, of breaking a horse.  It doesn't mean shattering it into multiple pieces (hard to do unless it's frozen solid anyway), it means taming said horse, teaching it to submit to human authority, teaching it to obey.  We have a broken heart when we are humble, submissive, and meek (see Mosiah 3:19); when we are "stripped of pride" (Alma 5:28).  We have a broken heart when we allow Christ to change our heart (tame us, in a sense), when we recognize his authority and our dependence, when we choose to obey because he knows all and we know essentially nothing.

As to the other definitions... We have a broken heart when we recognize that we are separated into parts, damaged (flawed) and "disunited" or disconnected or "cut off" from God, weak and infirm, imperfect or incomplete compared to God's perfection.  I don't think it means "sad" beyond being saddened by our recognition of these things and then our contrite spirit turns to God to seek reconciliation, accepting his guidance and will in how to accomplish that.

[mikbone]

28 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

I think the purpose of specifically naming Jesus Christ has more to do with better understanding and appreciating the Savior's atoning sacrifice than it has to do with anything related to our salvation.

 

Acts 4: 10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

 

AND

 

Isaiah 45: 

21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

 

I wholeheartedly disagree with your premise.

Edited October 9, 2023 by mikbone

[zil2]

24 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

There's not a specific phrase or statement that we need to say in order to meet the criteria that we have faith in Christ. My opinion is we don't even need to specifically acknowledge the name Jesus Christ in order to have faith in Him since Jesus Christ is God and God is all things related to truth and light. If we seek after good things, we seek Jesus Christ. 

I submit that you are wrong - at least in the sense that once we learn the name, the name matters immensely.  Those who have yet to learn the name can move toward Christ without knowing they're doing it, but if they continue, eventually they will learn the name, and then they will be required to take that name upon themselves.  I would encourage you to search the scriptures for the word "name" and see just how significant it was to those who wrote scripture.  As you study, pray and note what you learn (which may be more than what the words say).  I think the cultural significance of "name" has been lost to some degree, but I think study will help you find it.

27 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

I'm questioning what "faith in Christ" really means. I think it's more comprehensive than simply being confined to, "I believe in someone named Jesus Christ as my Savior." 

I've already posted one scripture about this - "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. ".  Faith in Christ - a topic worthy of study, by the way (read the scriptures and note what those who have faith say and do) - means to believe what he has said, that he has the power and character to keep his promises; and then to act in harmony with that belief.  If you have faith in Christ, you will follow him (that is, do the things he did and taught).  And when you are converted, you will help others to come to him.

If you don't have faith in Christ, then you don't think he meant what he said, or you don't think he can do what he promised to do, or you think his teachings were nice and all but not something you need to do, or whatever "not gonna change my life" thing you want to list.

[zil2]

32 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

I think the purpose of specifically naming Jesus Christ has more to do with better understanding and appreciating the Savior's atoning sacrifice than it has to do with anything related to our salvation.

Jesus Christ is our salvation.  His is the only name.  He is the only way.  Without him, all are damned.  Sure, his name is slightly different in various languages.  Sure, he has many names.  But the person we know as Jesus Christ is the only one with the power to offer us salvation and exaltation.  And as Alma said, we will be called by his (Christ's) name at the last day.  If you don't know that name, or more precisely, if you haven't taken it upon yourself by covenant (either personally or by proxy), then you are not saved or exalted.  It is that simple.  So yes, the name matters.  Eventually (by the end of the Millennium) all will have heard it and decided whether to accept or reject the person whose name it is.

[LDSGator]

2 minutes ago, zil2 said:

Jesus Christ is our salvation.  His is the only name.  He is the only way.  Without him, all are damned

Amen. 

[Carborendum]

1 hour ago, prisonchaplain said:

There's a cheezy acronym that's meant to define atonement: At-One-Ment with Christ.

It isn't just a play on words.  That is the actual etymology of Atonement.

It was originally used to imply reconciliation. If you reconciled, you were again at one with the one you wronged.  The idea is that whenever we wrong anyone, we sin.  When we sin, we sin against God and are separated from Him.  Thus we need a method of making amends to be reconciled with Him -- to become At One with Him again.

Over time, the word lost its original meaning.  Now it has become synonymous with the word expiation which refers to the "payment or reparations offered to gain the reconciliation", rather than the reconciliation itself. 

It is interesting to note that the Spanish word for Atonement is Expiacio'n.  But French use the word Reviens-moi which means Return to me.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Carborendum

[clbent04]

On 10/9/2023 at 12:17 PM, zil2 said:

Jesus Christ is our salvation.  His is the only name.  He is the only way.  Without him, all are damned.  Sure, his name is slightly different in various languages.  Sure, he has many names.  But the person we know as Jesus Christ is the only one with the power to offer us salvation and exaltation.  And as Alma said, we will be called by his (Christ's) name at the last day.  If you don't know that name, or more precisely, if you haven't taken it upon yourself by covenant (either personally or by proxy), then you are not saved or exalted.  It is that simple.  So yes, the name matters.  Eventually (by the end of the Millennium) all will have heard it and decided whether to accept or reject the person whose name it is.

When it comes to God, I can't conceptualize everything that He is, how He came to be, how He exists as an individual, nor His power. When I say I have faith in Jesus Christ, I'm saying I have faith in something I don't understand. This makes analyzing the statement - faith in Jesus Christ - difficult for me.

What I do understand are feelings or love, forgiveness, and compassion. God is all these things and is the source. I use these synonymously with Jesus Christ and God. Yes, Jesus Christ is more than a feeling, He is an individual, He is God, but it's those very feelings that help guide us towards the light. 

Edited October 11, 2023 by clbent04

[Carborendum]

26 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

Yes, Jesus Christ is more than a feeling, He is an individual, He is a God, but it's those very feelings that help guide us towards the light. 

With an absolute such as God, one cannot separate the two.  The feelings of love are what guide us to Him.  He is the embodiment of charity.

So, that makes me wonder why you asked the original question. 

6 hours ago, clbent04 said:

Is faith in Jesus Christ more important for our salvation than the condition of our hearts?

3 hours ago, clbent04 said:

I agree. But can the Atonement not work in our lives regardless if we specifically acknowledge the name Jesus Christ?

How can you believe that you can separate the two?  Think about it.  It seems that you are asking:

Can I have Christ in my heart without Christ in my life?

We've now said it several different ways.  Look at Mikbone's post about iron.  Look at Vort's post about heart and lungs.  Look at Zil's posts about everything.

You know they are inextricably linked.  Yet you want to see if one is more important than the other, or if you can have one without the other.

It seems you answered your own question.  But you're somehow still asking the same question.

What's really going on?

Edited October 9, 2023 by Carborendum