Proof that there is no God

[mikbone]

 

Had to share this commentary from the wife of my youth.

[JohnsonJones]

Probably wouldn't take faith based advice from Rapinoe.  Looked it up and it seems she feels she tore her Achilles in her final game before retirement during the championship (which her team then lost).  She already is not religious, so I'm not sure what to take from her statement.  It looks like the media is writing she was a joking (a particular wit as I didn't find it that humorous) and there are many who are taking her joke too seriously.

As I think she was already an atheist though, I'm not sure she would look at it one way or the other.  It sounds as if she is disappointed and upset.  She also seems to have a very foul tongue.  I hope she recovers and gets healthy.  Though it may not, perhaps hopefully in the future her heart will soften and she will find the Lord and the gospel.  She may have more time to focus on such things in the future now that she is retiring.

[laronius]

9 hours ago, mikbone said:

 

Had to share this commentary from the wife of my youth.

Well the wife of your youth hit the nail on it's head.

If I were honest I might feel some unfairness if in her shoes. Like, Really??? I've also been known to use humor to cover up said situations. But this isn't the first time she has expressed an entitlement mentality and a rather high view of herself. 

[Carborendum]

Yup.  I bought a lottery ticket and I didn't win.  What a waste of money.  Proof that there is no God.

[Traveler]

Most likely, until now, she was thinking that she was G-d.

 

The Traveler

[Ironhold]

I know people from all walks of life via social media, including a few athiests. 

I was actually talking with one of them last night about this, with him noting his frustration with remarks like hers. Athletes, by virtue of being athletes, face injuries consistent with their sport, and her number was finally up. That doesn't mean anything either way. 

[rcthompson88]

This must be what President Nelson was talking about when he said to not take counsel from those that don't believe.

[prisonchaplain]

15 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Yup.  I bought a lottery ticket and I didn't win.  What a waste of money.  Proof that there is no God.

Actually, based upon the teachings of both of our churches, this is proof that God is. 😉

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

Oh no, what am I to do now? All those wasted years were I could have been drinking and partying. Now at least I know, headed to the liquor store now. 🤣

Edited November 28, 2023 by Emmanuel Goldstein

[MrShorty]

Curious timing that this thread would come up now. I think I am correctly seeing that the OP is not completely serious, but I would note that the problem of evil has been a central part of my own research recently. Most commentators on the problem suggest that the problem of evil is the most common reason why people refuse to convert to Christianity (or theism more generally) or the most common reason they deconvert. I bumped against a bit of [Elder] C. S. Lewis's story and how the problem of evil was a major factor in his own resistance to conversion.

I understand that we can point out how silly it is to see a minor sports injury as proof positive that God doesn't exist, when there are much more important and significant evils in the world. It still seems like the problem of evil is still a major stumbling block for many people.

[zil2]

59 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

the problem of evil is still a major stumbling block for many people.

I submit that it's a major problem because they do not understand God correctly.  Only when God is properly understood can the option of "evil" be properly understood.

[MrShorty]

11 minutes ago, zil2 said:

I submit that it's a major problem because they do not understand God correctly.  Only when God is properly understood can the option of "evil" be properly understood.

Your probably right. I encountered something C. S. Lewis wrote in A Grief Observed where he wrote

Quote

Not that I am (I think) in much danger of ceasing to believe in God. The real danger is of coming to believe such dreadful things about Him. The conclusion I dread is not ‘So there’s no God after all,’ but ‘So this is what God’s really like. Deceive yourself no longer.'

So, I think you may be right. The problem of evil reveals bits of what we believe about God, what we believe about ourselves, what we believe about this mortal sojourn.

I might add here that, if this is true, you can probably count me in among those who don't understand God correctly. Perhaps part of why the problem of evil has become a point of study for me is in an attempt to come to a correct understanding of who and what God is.

[LDSGator]

8 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

might add here that, if this is true, you can probably count me in among those who don't understand God correctly. Perhaps part of why the problem of evil has become a point of study for me is in an attempt to come to a correct understanding of who and what God is.

If you said you understood God correctly I’d be a little nervous. I’m not sure our human minds can comprehend what God truly is. 

 

33 minutes ago, zil2 said:

I submit that it's a major problem because they do not understand God correctly.  Only when God is properly understood can the option of "evil" be properly understood.

Intellectually I agree with you. Most of my friends who are agnostic and deal with the problem of evil have usually struggled with great loss. It’s more a problem with emotions rather than intellect, which is totally understandable.   

Edited November 27, 2023 by LDSGator

[zil2]

2 hours ago, MrShorty said:

Your probably right. I encountered something C. S. Lewis wrote in A Grief Observed where he wrote

So, I think you may be right. The problem of evil reveals bits of what we believe about God, what we believe about ourselves, what we believe about this mortal sojourn.

I might add here that, if this is true, you can probably count me in among those who don't understand God correctly. Perhaps part of why the problem of evil has become a point of study for me is in an attempt to come to a correct understanding of who and what God is.

My point is that most people believe that God created everything, everyone, everywhere, and everywhen.  That all time and existence and matter and everything other than God was created by God.  This means evil was created by God (whether directly or by creating that / those which would choose evil),  since nothing co-exists, or pre-exists God, nor comes into existence without God.

Joseph Smith taught that this is not correct.  All intelligent beings have always existed.  We are eternal, with no beginning and no end.  In other words, there is some part of us that God did not create.  Further, he taught that we are the same species as God and that God once existed as a mortal man.  If all that is true, then space (room in which to exist) is also co-eternal with God (unless one wants to argue that beings can exist without having space in which to exist).  I won't try to argue that clock-like time has always existed, but I think it's reasonable to believe that sequences of events have always existed, and therefore when has always existed. (How can you exist without existing for a duration?  Eternity itself is a duration, so "when" has always existed - otherwise, how could I be using the word "always"? )

Therefore, we have intelligences, space, and "when" that were not created.  Therefore, we do not have to believe that God created evil, or that he knowingly created beings who would choose evil, nor that there was something he didn't know (that some of us would choose evil), etc.  We can believe that evil (the option to go contrary to light and truth) has always been an option, just as intelligences, space, and when have always existed.  We can believe that he is helping intelligences to progress, if they so choose, and that if they choose evil, it is their choice, not his.  If he holds any blame, it is in not stopping them (but we believe agency is so important that God basically has to allow it, by his own choice and because it is the most right thing to do).

The "God created everything" crowd have to struggle with why God created evil (either directly or indirectly).  Those of us who believe what Joseph Smith taught know that God did not create evil and only allows his children to choose it because agency is critical to our eternal existence.  (And scripture teaches that when things get bad enough, God will step in and either guide his children away from the evil, or destroy those who have so thoroughly chosen evil that they don't need more time in mortality to make their choice.)

Edited November 27, 2023 by zil2

[MrShorty]

1 hour ago, LDSGator said:

If you said you understood God correctly I’d be a little nervous. I’m not sure our human minds can comprehend what God truly is. 

Agreed. A little epistemic humility seems wise in these cases.

[LDSGator]

1 hour ago, MrShorty said:

Agreed. A little epistemic humility seems wise in these cases.

Totally agree my friend. 

[MrShorty]

@zil2 You are correct that the creatio ex nihilo group has to grapple with God as the creator of evil, where those of us who don't subscribe to creatio ex nihilo have the luxury of being able to say that evil exists independent of God. But that is only part of the problem of evil. As it relates to the OP, there is also the problem of various ways that evil and suffering exist (sports injury, war, natural disaster, illness, accidents, etc.) that God (we usually believe) could intervene to prevent or alleviate, but He chooses not to intervene.

[zil2]

27 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

that God (we usually believe) could intervene to prevent or alleviate, but He chooses not to intervene

And if (generic) you believe that the safest, most comfortable mortality is the best way to accomplish the best eternal ends, then I reckon you think God himself is evil even if he didn't create it.  Or at the least, he's an indifferent jerk or plays favorites, or whatever.  But Joseph Smith also taught us that there's a lot more both to mortality and to eternity than feeling safe and comfortable.

(Sorry, I know lots of people struggle with this, but I don't, and the scriptures are full of explanations for why God allows suffering / why suffering happens.  And there are a lot of reasons that any rational person can come up with for why suffering exists and why it's not the worst thing that could happen.)

[MrShorty]

51 minutes ago, zil2 said:

And if (generic) you believe that the safest, most comfortable mortality is the best way to accomplish the best eternal ends, then I reckon you think God himself is evil even if he didn't create it.  Or at the least, he's an indifferent jerk or plays favorites, or whatever.

The essence of the statement from C. S. Lewis that I quoted above. I agree that "soul growth" (or other way to say that evil and suffering in this life contribute to our eternal progression) is one of the central parts of our theodicy (along with free will). While I do see something compelling about this explanation for the problem of evil, I also note that it still seems incomplete. Some people lead a charmed life and only face mild suffering (yours truly) while others wallow in near constant poverty or illness or suffer other injustices. While I lead a charmed life and retain a belief in God, I see others whose suffering leads them to "curse God and die," and I'm not sure that I would not follow suit if I were placed in the same scenario. I think "soul growth" works as a partial explanation for the problem of evil, but I'm not sure it fully and completely answers the issue.

[zil2]

27 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

"soul growth"

This is not the only explanation in scripture for suffering.  Unfortunately, they really aren't clearly marked out, so one has to just read and note them when they're found, and there are a lot of them - because there's a lot of suffering in scripture.

[JohnsonJones]

One thing I think that causes a LOT of suffering on this earth is due to us being in the middle of a War.

The War in Heaven never ended.  It is not over.  We are still in the middle of it.  At least from what I feel I've read in the scriptures.

I also believe that the Adversary has a LOT more power than most people understand.  He has power and he uses it as weapons to control and empower his purposes, as well as to hurt those he dislikes (and he dislikes all of those who retained their first estate) and harm those who stand against him.

We know he has powers over the waters (one reason that missionaries are not supposed to go swimming).  If you think about that, this is a LOT of power. 

Around 60% of the human body is water.  The blood that courses through our veins is mostly water.

I think a LOT of the terrible things that happen in this world (disease for example) are caused by him using his powers to hurt mankind.  Freak accidents may have been known by us in the pre-existence as to how they may happen, but I think sometimes the adversary uses them to hurt people just because he wants to hurt them.

We are in an active war with the adversary currently.  He has it easy because most of the world do not realize that they are at war and who their enemy is.  This gives him an easier ability to influence people and to tempt them to do what he wants them to do.  He is unbound at this time.

I think there will be a time when people will realize he is their enemy and he exists.  They will recognize what he is trying to do and will instead choose to follow the Lord.  By their righteousness he will become powerless.  In effect, their righteousness will bind him so that he won't be able to do many of the things he does today.

He will get power again after a period where men once again forget who he is and listen to him.  After that though, the War will finally come to an end with his defeat and him and his followers being shown their way to Outer Darkness.  However, that end is not yet and he is raging with his power against mankind to control them and to do them harm. 

[Carborendum]

I mean, it's the age old question: Why do bad things happen to bad people?  That's what's on everyone's mind, right?

Rapinoe didn't just "curse God for abandoning her" and then consign herself to a miserable death.  She never believed there was a God to curse in the first place.  She used her energy to proclaim that she was so special that if she didn't do well in that final game, it must be proof that there is no God. 

The difference between those who lose hope vs those who maintain it is not about how bad our lives have been.  It is the mindset that it is all God's fault.

Those who succeed are not the ones with "charmed lives".  Many failures are made out of "charmed lives." Those who succeed are those who realize that God is the solution, not the curse. 

Wo unto those who call good, evil and evil, good.  This is not just a commandment or an injunction.  It is a prediction.  It is a statement of inevitability.  If we fail to understand the true source of evil (in this case, any type of misfortune) and attribute it to the source of good, we will not be able to reach out to the source of good to get us out of the evil we've fallen into.  And if we attribute evil to good, then we will automatically set ourselves up for further evil by default.

NOTE: I've read her name many times.  Today was the first day that I actually heard her name pronounced.  It was surprising.  I thought it was pronounced RAH-pi-No.  So, ruh-PEE-no is apparently the correct pronunciation.  Good to know.

[Ironhold]

*bump*

OK. 

The car I presently drive is third-hand. It was a government fleet vehicle, and whoever was assigned it badly mistreated it. A relative who works as a college professor bought it at a surplus auction, and trusted the auto shop students at the college he's with to maintain it... which they didn't do. He sold it to me when he upgraded to a minivan, and so for the past six years my dad (a master mechanic) and I have been troubleshooting and ferreting out problems as they arise. 

One persistent problem is a gremlin in the evaporation system. If my fuel tank goes below about 75% full or it's an unusually hot day, the gremlin will cause the check engine light to pop on. This of course means I have to stop what I'm doing, pull out my code reader, and get the error code so I can see if it's the gremlin or a more serious issue. To minimize these instances, then, I try to fill my car up once a week. 

I tanked up after church on Sunday since I needed to stop at that station for the Sunday edition of the Dallas newspaper and it's one of the few places in the area that still carries it. The car then sat Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday as I carpooled with other people to do my errands. Thursday afternoon I go to take it to work and see a puddle on the ground. It's gasoline. I'm spooked as to what's happening, as whenever we have erratic weather of the kind we've had lately the car usually has a hose or seal crack. 

Well, dad put the car up on jacks today to check it out. The source of the gas was a vent that's set up so that the car can expel gas fumes (et al) if the tank is overfilled, so somehow I simply put a little too much gas in. 

To access the gas tank and everything else, however, you have to pull one of the rear tires even with the car jacked up. Since the tire was off, dad decided to check my brakes and discovered a frightening maintenance issue. Basically, the government peeps damaged the park brake, the auto shop students didn't notice the damage, and now six years of stop-and-go delivery driving has pushed the brakes to the point where failure is a real possibility. 

So if not for the car belching out a little bit of excess gas in a rather worrying display, we wouldn't have known that the park brake was going out.