No in-betweeners?

[laronius]

While our beliefs entail a much broader spectrum of salvation (three kingdoms of glory with perhaps many levels of glory within them) as compared to the heaven and hell belief of most Christians, I still find it interesting that there is still such a significant chasm between the kingdoms of glory, at least as the imagery implies: sun vs moon vs stars. Their difference in glory is vast. This would seem to imply that no one is going to just barely miss one kingdom. If you are only worthy of a lesser kingdom then you are still quite a ways off from being worthy of the greater kingdom. 

If that conclusion is accurate (and I'm equally interested in what you think if you feel it's not) then there must be a rather significant distinction in worthiness for there not being necessary a middle ground of worthiness, something in between the sun and moon and stars. For example, we know those in the Terrestrial Kingdom are labeled as not valiant in the testimony of Jesus whereas those in the Celestial Kingdom are. Will there not be anyone who is only sorta valiant, more than those in the Terrestrial but not up to snuff compared to the Celestial?

It's not something I had considered in the past but it does strike me that there must be a good answer out there somewhere, maybe in one of your noggins. Hopefully.

I guess what my question boils down to is if you believe there really is such a significant gap, what makes it so? Or if you think the top of one kingdom is close to the bottom of the next kingdom, why the imagery implying otherwise?

[mikbone]

John 14

1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

[Still_Small_Voice]

Very little is revealed on the 2nd Heaven (Terrestrial Kingdom).  We know there are different degrees in the Telestial and Celestial Kingdoms, but nothing is revealed on the Terrestrial.  There are likely hundreds of degrees in Telestial Kingdom, but only three in the Celestial.

The Telestial Kingdom will also have the most inhabitants according to my understand of Doctrine & Covenants 76 verse 109:

"But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;"

I am grateful for all the light and knowledge revealed in Doctrine & Covenants Section 76.

[CV75]

16 hours ago, laronius said:

While our beliefs entail a much broader spectrum of salvation (three kingdoms of glory with perhaps many levels of glory within them) as compared to the heaven and hell belief of most Christians, I still find it interesting that there is still such a significant chasm between the kingdoms of glory, at least as the imagery implies: sun vs moon vs stars. Their difference in glory is vast. This would seem to imply that no one is going to just barely miss one kingdom. If you are only worthy of a lesser kingdom then you are still quite a ways off from being worthy of the greater kingdom. 

If that conclusion is accurate (and I'm equally interested in what you think if you feel it's not) then there must be a rather significant distinction in worthiness for there not being necessary a middle ground of worthiness, something in between the sun and moon and stars. For example, we know those in the Terrestrial Kingdom are labeled as not valiant in the testimony of Jesus whereas those in the Celestial Kingdom are. Will there not be anyone who is only sorta valiant, more than those in the Terrestrial but not up to snuff compared to the Celestial?

It's not something I had considered in the past but it does strike me that there must be a good answer out there somewhere, maybe in one of your noggins. Hopefully.

I guess what my question boils down to is if you believe there really is such a significant gap, what makes it so? Or if you think the top of one kingdom is close to the bottom of the next kingdom, why the imagery implying otherwise?

I think the the explanation behind the simple imagery is given in D&C 76: that each kingdom is distinguished by its ministers; that is, by terrestrial agents, celestial agents, or the agents of fulness, who are the Father and the Son in the Church of the Firstborn (D&C 76:86,87, 20, 56, 94).

The comparative imagery is made from the perspective of the ancients looking up from the earth. There are many stars of varying brightness, and the moon also varies according to phases and distance. A star may appear to approach the brightness of the moon, but the moon can never appear as bright as the sun because the fulness of the sun is infinitely greater than any other heavenly body. Unlike any other heavenly body, if you stare at the sun you will lose your sight, and some smattering of sight is infinitely more sight than none.

Edited March 24 by CV75

[laronius]

37 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I think the the explanation behind the simple imagery is given in D&C 76: that each kingdom is distinguished by its ministers; that is, by terrestrial agents, celestial agents, or the agents of fulness, who are the Father and the Son in the Church of the Firstborn (D&C 76:86,87, 20, 56, 94).

The comparative imagery is made from the perspective of the ancients looking up from the earth. There are many stars of varying brightness, and the moon also varies according to phases and distance. A star may appear to approach the brightness of the moon, but the moon can never appear as bright as the sun because the fulness of the sun is infinitely greater than any other heavenly body. Unlike any other heavenly body, if you stare at the sun you will lose your sight, and some smattering of sight is infinitely more sight than none.

So do you feel that those towards the top of the Terrestrial Kingdom are not very far away (obedience/glory wise) from those in the lowest level of the Celestial Kingdom?

[CV75]

1 minute ago, laronius said:

So do you feel that those towards the top of the Terrestrial Kingdom are not very far away (obedience/glory wise) from those in the lowest level of the Celestial Kingdom?

No, I think they are as infinitely distant in glory, as the brightest light of the fullest moon is infinitely (meaning indeterminately) less than the brightness of the sun from the perspective of the ancient, unaided human eye.

[laronius]

53 minutes ago, CV75 said:

No, I think they are as infinitely distant in glory, as the brightest light of the fullest moon is infinitely (meaning indeterminately) less than the brightness of the sun from the perspective of the ancient, unaided human eye.

So assuming the glory we inherit is relative to our faithfulness, will there be no one whose faithfulness is greater than the moon and yet less than the sun? This is what I'm trying to get at. It seems like there would be people all along the spectrum of faithfulness and yet the imagery suggests there are some pretty significant gaps in that spectrum. Perhaps that thinking is wrong and I'm totally open to other interpretations. But if it's not wrong, what is the cause for those gaps in faithfulness?

[CV75]

18 minutes ago, laronius said:

So assuming the glory we inherit is relative to our faithfulness, will there be no one whose faithfulness is greater than the moon and yet less than the sun? This is what I'm trying to get at. It seems like there would be people all along the spectrum of faithfulness and yet the imagery suggests there are some pretty significant gaps in that spectrum. Perhaps that thinking is wrong and I'm totally open to other interpretations. But if it's not wrong, what is the cause for those gaps in faithfulness?

The faithfulness and the focus on Christ may be but an infinitesimally small particle off, but the eternal effects of lacking, or ever so slightly misdirecting, that tiny particle are infinite and eternal. This doesn't render celestial glory impossible to attain, it just explains the vast difference between it and terrestrial glory.

The more graduated spectrum between kingdoms suggests, given the language in D&C 76, that there is an increase in the faithfulness of the wicked approaching celestial glory or a decrease in the faithfulness of the righteous falling short of it. But the latter doesn't make sense given President Nelson's teachings on spiritual momentum. In other words, do the wicked progress in faith and yet remain wicked so as to never obtain righteousness? (No). Do the righteous take a misstep and revert to progressing as wicked people, having proven their inability to maintain righteousness? (No). The element missing from this model, I think, is grace. Grace saves anyone who is willing, and at the same time creates a great gulf for those who are not willing, for they simply have not received God's grace unto joy. From the parable of the mustard seed, the tiny seed is faith, it grows by grace, and finally exhibits attributes infinitely greater than a mature tree. If it did not grow by grace, it would grow but just into a tree. The difference is infinite. There are no partially celestial trees that accommodate birds but no nests, nests but no birds, fungi, moss or bugs instead of birds, etc.

[laronius]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

The faithfulness and the focus on Christ may be but an infinitesimally small particle off, but the eternal effects of lacking, or ever so slightly misdirecting, that tiny particle are infinite and eternal. This doesn't render celestial glory impossible to attain, it just explains the vast difference between it and terrestrial glory.

The more graduated spectrum between kingdoms suggests, given the language in D&C 76, that there is an increase in the faithfulness of the wicked approaching celestial glory or a decrease in the faithfulness of the righteous falling short of it. But the latter doesn't make sense given President Nelson's teachings on spiritual momentum. In other words, do the wicked progress in faith and yet remain wicked so as to never obtain righteousness? (No). Do the righteous take a misstep and revert to progressing as wicked people, having proven their inability to maintain righteousness? (No). The element missing from this model, I think, is grace. Grace saves anyone who is willing, and at the same time creates a great gulf for those who are not willing, for they simply have not received God's grace unto joy. From the parable of the mustard seed, the tiny seed is faith, it grows by grace, and finally exhibits attributes infinitely greater than a mature tree. If it did not grow by grace, it would grow but just into a tree. The difference is infinite. There are no partially celestial trees that accommodate birds but no nests, nests but no birds, fungi, moss or bugs instead of birds, etc.

I think you have presented a very feasible explanation for that gulf. When we consider that our progression continues after this life , trajectory takes on increased significance because of the increasing gap that comes with time if we choose not to wholly submit to the Lord. 

I think your use of the term "willing" is equally significant and I think is an antithesis to the principle of damnation, which we could define as being unwilling. Our degree of willingness does not define our final state but it is a precursor to it. And any amount of unwillingness on our part can have an increasingly damning effect in the eternities. Kind of puts the things of this life in perspective.

I appreciate your comments @CV75.

[askandanswer]

4 hours ago, laronius said:

It seems like there would be people all along the spectrum of faithfulness and yet the imagery suggests there are some pretty significant gaps in that spectrum.

The imagery/analogy is faulty given that the sun is a star. 

[Still_Small_Voice]

1 hour ago, askandanswer said:

The imagery/analogy is faulty given that the sun is a star. 

 

Every parable or symbol has limitations or boundaries.  Try not to look beyond the mark with a symbol or parable.

For example: Jesus Christ is the good shepherd.  We are His sheep.  Is Jesus planning on shearing off our wool and killing us someday for food?

[Traveler]

3 hours ago, laronius said:

So assuming the glory we inherit is relative to our faithfulness, will there be no one whose faithfulness is greater than the moon and yet less than the sun? This is what I'm trying to get at. It seems like there would be people all along the spectrum of faithfulness and yet the imagery suggests there are some pretty significant gaps in that spectrum. Perhaps that thinking is wrong and I'm totally open to other interpretations. But if it's not wrong, what is the cause for those gaps in faithfulness?

I believe in agency.  I do not believe in almost anything or just short of anything else.  Let me put this another way.  We are what we have spent billions of years becoming.  This mortal experience is just a part of what is called the plan of salvation.  There was a pre-existence and there will be a spirit experience after we die and before we are resurrected that will complete our probation.

The first step to freedom begins with discipline.  The first step into bondage begins with self-indulgence.   We become free or bound through the steps we take.  If one is in St George Utah, they can follow I-15 in one of two directions.  One direction will take them towards Las Vagas the other direction will take them to Salt Lake City.  With each step one takes, the gap between the two destinations does not change but the gap between where you are and the destination you are headed is what changes.  

We are told in scriptures that we can follow one of three paths.  One leads to the telestial glory, one leads to the terrestrial glory and one leads to the celestial glory.  The choice is yours – you determine by your agency the path you take.  There is a passage in the Book of Mormon that implies that according to your choice the atonement of Christ will complete what you are unable to accomplish on your own.

 

The Traveler

[CV75]

16 hours ago, askandanswer said:

The imagery/analogy is faulty given that the sun is a star. 

The ancients did not know that, and from their perspective, the sun is brighter than a star.

[estradling75]

Before the Kingdoms of Glory were revealed to us... The same type of question was asked about the dividing line between Heaven and Hell.  The best in Hell and the worst in Heaven weren't that much apart yet there rewards were starkly different.

Now the Lord has revealed the Three Kingdoms of Glory showing that not all receive the same rewards...  We don't know much about the Kingdoms of Glory except that the Celestial Kingdom appears to have an internal difference of rewards between the Exalted and the rest.

Therefore to me the revelations of the Three Kingdoms of Glory is a giant clue bat that we should stop thinking that the Heaven/Hell model or the Kingdom's model is an all or nothing type deal in the Lord's plan.  But rather its more of a spectrum.  Sure there are lines drawn but the reward/punishment change is gradual as you move through it. 

 

[Still_Small_Voice]

Biggest differences in the degrees of glory revealed to us, that I read, is in the Celestial Kingdom we will all be part of eternal families, in likeness of families formed here in this mortal life.  A father, mother and children.  In the other two glories there are no eternal families like this.  In my opinion, the lower degrees of glory will have congregations of people that have recreation and work together to accomplish goals.

I think individual friendships will also exist in the lower glories, but there will be no marriages.

[ZealoulyStriving]

As I've begun, for the first time, to read the Journal of Discourses, I have come across tidbits that are helping me to erase any assumptions I may have had about eternity and progression. My ultimate answer? I just don't know but God is really, really merciful- I trust Him.

[Traveler]

20 hours ago, Still_Small_Voice said:

Biggest differences in the degrees of glory revealed to us, that I read, is in the Celestial Kingdom we will all be part of eternal families, in likeness of families formed here in this mortal life.  A father, mother and children.  In the other two glories there are no eternal families like this.  In my opinion, the lower degrees of glory will have congregations of people that have recreation and work together to accomplish goals.

I think individual friendships will also exist in the lower glories, but there will be no marriages.

Greetings @Still_Small_Voice:

I would add to your thoughtful post a few thoughts of my own.  I have speculated and rationalized that there will be marriages (perhaps of differing varieties) in other glories – perhaps even in what is referred to in our LDS doctrine as outer darkness.  However, only in the Celestial Glory will the covenant of marriage be eternal and possess the covenant (New and everlasting Covenant) and power of creating new life – especially children in the image and likeness of g-ds.  My reference in scripture for this is Doctrine and Covenants 132.

It does appear to me that all things in this physical universe is subject to the phisics and laws of dimensions of space time in which it exists.  As such all things do not and cannot endure everlasting eternity and of necessity can only be sustained through the merciful power and compassion of Celestial beings.  Whatever personal bonds are made outside of the Celestial law are not trustworthy or capable to endure eternally.

Because our universe is organized and ordered though the power and order of the Priesthood – it is my impression that all thrones, principalities, powers, things of names or whatsoever my be, must be sustained through powers and orders of celestial beings.  Those of other glories are subjects to celestial beings and thus are ministering angles to them – they have no power or powers only that which is allowed by celestial beings and their care.

This would mean that the only free individuals of liberty are Celestial.  All others are damned – which means limited (bounded) in what they can do and achieve and as such are dependent on Celestial beings for their every breath.  This is why they are subject to them and cannot achieve any rank higher than ministering angles.   As a side note – I have encountered many religious individuals that have no desire whatsoever to be themselves free individuals of liberty – in other words desire no more than to be eternally damned to some state lesser than G-d’s and therefore they cannot one with G-d as Jesus prayed in Gethsemane.  (Which, by-the-way many of non LDS stripe claim makes the Latter-day Saints technically not disciples of Christ.)

 

The Traveler

[zil2]

23 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I have speculated and rationalized that there will be marriages (perhaps of differing varieties) in other glories – perhaps even in what is referred to in our LDS doctrine as outer darkness.

President Joseph Fielding Smith disagreed with you (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.2, Pg.286 – 288; cited in this article). Even if his view was speculation, I'll take a prophet's speculation over another person's.

Also D&C 132:17 describes the who aren't sealed for eternity thusly:

Quote

17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.

And then there's the LDS explanation of the scriptures which say there is no marrying or giving in marriage in the next life - that is, the marriage must happen in mortality (personally or by proxy) and be sealed, or, per D&C 132 it is dissolved at death (not later on, but at death). So if unsealed marriages end at death and folks can't get married after death, how would anyone in any other kingdom have even a temporary marriage? 

[ZealoulyStriving]

Check out these quotes having to do with "native elements":

https://scriptures.byu.edu/#:t2731&"native elements":st&&1830&2024&j&n&30@0$"native elements"

*There seemed to be an idea that if you are not eternally progressing, you are eternally regressing until your Spirit is broken back into unorganized matter to be "recycled" (so to speak).*

[ZealoulyStriving]

"The rebellious will be thrown back into their native element, there to remain myriads of years before their dust will again be revived, before they will be reorganized." (Pres. Brigham Young, JD 1:20)

[JohnsonJones]

39 minutes ago, ZealoulyStriving said:

Check out these quotes having to do with "native elements":

https://scriptures.byu.edu/#:t2731&"native elements":st&&1830&2024&j&n&30@0$"native elements"

*There seemed to be an idea that if you are not eternally progressing, you are eternally regressing until your Spirit is broken back into unorganized matter to be "recycled" (so to speak).*

I'm not so sure I agree with the idea of either you are progressing or regressing.

There is a very damaging idea in corporatism today (not to be confused with capitalism, which is the ideal, corporatism and monopolist are probably the counter of capitalism in the opposite direction of socialism if one thinks about it) that you must always be increasing your profits.  Each Quarter needs to be better than the last and you must always be expanding.  

However, sometimes the best course is to simply stay where you are at. 

An Empire is normally the precursor to a nation's fall.  Sometimes that fall is greater than what they would have been had they merely been content with existing. 

This also goes along with what the Chemist writes above, and IS problematic.  As per his own statement, things progress until they reach their zenith (like an Empire) and then regress after that. 

This would indicate that once we reach the zenith in eternity, we automatically start regressing.  That's a TERRIBLE idea and one that is ignored after he talks about it and forgets to apply THAT principal to his ideas in what follows as well.

I think there could be eternal progression, there can also be regression, but I also think there are those that can just be existing.  They are neither progressing or regressing, but have an end to their progress and regress in the glory that they receive. 

[JohnsonJones]

On 3/23/2024 at 8:14 PM, laronius said:

While our beliefs entail a much broader spectrum of salvation (three kingdoms of glory with perhaps many levels of glory within them) as compared to the heaven and hell belief of most Christians, I still find it interesting that there is still such a significant chasm between the kingdoms of glory, at least as the imagery implies: sun vs moon vs stars. Their difference in glory is vast. This would seem to imply that no one is going to just barely miss one kingdom. If you are only worthy of a lesser kingdom then you are still quite a ways off from being worthy of the greater kingdom. 

If that conclusion is accurate (and I'm equally interested in what you think if you feel it's not) then there must be a rather significant distinction in worthiness for there not being necessary a middle ground of worthiness, something in between the sun and moon and stars. For example, we know those in the Terrestrial Kingdom are labeled as not valiant in the testimony of Jesus whereas those in the Celestial Kingdom are. Will there not be anyone who is only sorta valiant, more than those in the Terrestrial but not up to snuff compared to the Celestial?

It's not something I had considered in the past but it does strike me that there must be a good answer out there somewhere, maybe in one of your noggins. Hopefully.

I guess what my question boils down to is if you believe there really is such a significant gap, what makes it so? Or if you think the top of one kingdom is close to the bottom of the next kingdom, why the imagery implying otherwise?

There are rather strict cutoffs if we are to believe in section 76 of the Doctrine and Covenants.

Telestial - Those who rejected the gospel but did not deny the Holy Spirit.  As We know, every knee will bow and all will eventually accept the Lord, but these did not accept the Lord in their mortal or spiritual probation, but only later (probably). 

In my opinion this basically means all those who were baptized (mortally or in proxy).  As long as they accept the Lord and the ordinances, they will be saved in a glory that surpasses our understanding in mortality.

Terrestrial - These are those who rejected the gospel in this life, but accepted it in the spirit world.  They are also those who are hororable but blinded by the craftiness of men.  They could also be those who had the gospel but were not valiant in their testimony of Jesus (in my opinion, this could also be those who accepted the gospel but did not follow the teachings of Jesus or put the ideas and morality of men above that which the Lord teaches, such as caring for the poor, helping the sick, loyalty to one's spouse and fidelity in marriage, the Law of Chastity, Charity, and other items covered in the Scriptures and ideas such as the 13th article of faith...etc).  Thus, though short, not being valiant could be a lot larger and harder than I may even imagine it to be.

Celestial - These accepted the gospel and received all the ordinances thereof.  They overcame by faith and their blessings were Sealed upon them by the Holy Spirit of promise.  They are members of the Church of the Firstborn.  They are priests and have the Melchizedek Priesthood.  They overcome all things. 

These are pretty clear cut dividing lines in some ways.  In some ways it could be seen that you are either on one side of the line or the other.  In looking at it, the ONLY for use to even get the Telestial is through the atonement, and it is absolutely far more true with us being able to achieve the Celestial.  Without the atonement and the ability to repent and be cleansed from our sins I don't see a way for any man (because no man is perfect except for the Savior, and thus could not overcome anything without him) could even dream of making the Celestial Kingdom, much less the Telestial. 

[ZealoulyStriving]

Th

31 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

I'm not so sure I agree with the idea of either you are progressing or regressing.

There is a very damaging idea in corporatism today (not to be confused with capitalism, which is the ideal, corporatism and monopolist are probably the counter of capitalism in the opposite direction of socialism if one thinks about it) that you must always be increasing your profits.  Each Quarter needs to be better than the last and you must always be expanding.  

However, sometimes the best course is to simply stay where you are at. 

An Empire is normally the precursor to a nation's fall.  Sometimes that fall is greater than what they would have been had they merely been content with existing. 

This also goes along with what the Chemist writes above, and IS problematic.  As per his own statement, things progress until they reach their zenith (like an Empire) and then regress after that. 

This would indicate that once we reach the zenith in eternity, we automatically start regressing.  That's a TERRIBLE idea and one that is ignored after he talks about it and forgets to apply THAT principal to his ideas in what follows as well.

I think there could be eternal progression, there can also be regression, but I also think there are those that can just be existing.  They are neither progressing or regressing, but have an end to their progress and regress in the glory that they receive. 

I brought it up because when we are in theological discussions we need to be careful about the statement- "I'll believe what the Prophets have said." as a sort of trump card- because the mortal men who have served as prophets and Apostles have said lots of things. I'm glad they don't really speculate or relate the personal musings from the stand anymore.

[Anddenex]

On 3/23/2024 at 8:14 PM, laronius said:

Will there not be anyone who is only sorta valiant, more than those in the Terrestrial but not up to snuff compared to the Celestial?

I guess what my question boils down to is if you believe there really is such a significant gap, what makes it so? Or if you think the top of one kingdom is close to the bottom of the next kingdom, why the imagery implying otherwise?

I really like the scripture that specifies, "All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence."

The "gap", so to speak, is the mind and heart. The reward, the significance is the glory added upon. In that sense, yes, the gap is very significant. An individual needs to be quickened by the Spirit in order to see God. Does a person need to be "quickened" to see an angel (where glory has not yet been received)?

My personal opinion, the gap between Terrestrial and Celestial isn't that wide, but the gap between Terrestrial and Telestial or Celestial and Telestial is much wider. They rejected both the Son and the Father, and thus live without the Son and the Father.

[Carborendum]

Some people wonder why the three degrees were not preached in earlier dispensations.

Quote

I won't be disappointed in my children who shoot for the moon and hit only an eagle.  But I will be disappointed if they shoot for a tree and hit only a stone.