Question concerning “Continuing Revelation”

[Maverick]

One of the boldest claims the church makes is that the church is led by continuing revelation from God to the President of the church, who along with his counselors and the Quorum of the 12 apostles, we sustain as prophets, seers, and revelators. 

While I don’t doubt that our leaders have often received inspiration and guidance in their callings, my question is why there hasn’t been a single revelation where the direct words of the Lord have been quoted added to our scriptural canon since the revelation Brigham Young received in 1847 in Winter Quarters (D&C 136)? This is literally the last “thus saith the Lord” type revelation quoting the words of the Lord directly added to our scriptures. This was 177 years ago. 

Why hasn’t there been any more revelations like this since? 

I understand that revelation doesn’t always have to come this way and that making prophecies of the future and declaring “thus saith the Lord” first person revelations isn’t all true prophets, seers, and revelators should be expected to do. But why hasn’t there been any of this in such a long time?

This is not a criticism of the brethern. It’s an honest question that has puzzled me for some time now. Any thoughts?

[CV75]

11 hours ago, Maverick said:

One of the boldest claims the church makes is that the church is led by continuing revelation from God to the President of the church, who along with his counselors and the Quorum of the 12 apostles, we sustain as prophets, seers, and revelators. 

While I don’t doubt that our leaders have often received inspiration and guidance in their callings, my question is why there hasn’t been a single revelation where the direct words of the Lord have been quoted added to our scriptural canon since the revelation Brigham Young received in 1847 in Winter Quarters (D&C 136)? This is literally the last “thus saith the Lord” type revelation quoting the words of the Lord directly added to our scriptures. This was 177 years ago. 

Why hasn’t there been any more revelations like this since? 

I understand that revelation doesn’t always have to come this way and that making prophecies of the future and declaring “thus saith the Lord” first person revelations isn’t all true prophets, seers, and revelators should be expected to do. But why hasn’t there been any of this in such a long time?

This is not a criticism of the brethern. It’s an honest question that has puzzled me for some time now. Any thoughts?

I think it is a function of more saints having gotten endowed with priesthood power over time. They begin to understand and appreciate where the brethren are coming from and the constant flow of revelation doesn't necessarily require such a formal introduction when communicated or published.

[NeuroTypical]

It's a fine question.  I think one without any doctrinal answer, but one we can speculate and opine about.

I think about dispensations and folks setting off into new uncharted territory needing guidance from the Lord.  We are a relatively young restored church - a scant 200 years.  The restoration kicked off something that doesn't need a bunch of changes.  The D&C is a record of those changes. 

I think about how things get canonized, sometimes a lifetime or three after the record is actually made.  It makes me wonder, as the Proclamation on the Family approaches turning 30, if it might become part of the D&C eventually. 

I also think about Enos, Jarom, and Omni, books documenting ~300 years of BoM history, and how they get only 3 short chapters.  Enos gains a solid testimony.  The Lamanites resist missionary efforts. Prophets keep prophesying same old stuff. Oh look, it's Zarahmelans.  3 centuries, that's it.  

Omni gets 3 verses.  One verse saying "I'm writing something because my dad told me to."  One saying "I fought a lot, and wasn't a good person."  One saying "Lotta peace, lotta war, nothing much else to say. Wrote this down because it's tradition, so here's my son Amaron for you."   Amaron's record is equally as short and unremarkable.  Holy, sacred scripture at it's most routine and unremarkable.  Omni certainly didn't think anything about him or his record should have been thought of as holy or precious, other than he was an unimportant part of an important story.

It makes me think about what 2020-2024 would look like in scripture.  "A new plague crossed the entire world and killed many of the old and sick.  In the church, there were some disputations about how the sickness should be dealt with, but mostly the saints did their best to practice their religion in safety.  I, Russel M. Nelson, being a doctor by trade, urged the world to receive a medicine, but nevertheless to love all no matter their choice.  The sickness did not stop us from our missionary work, nor did it slow our work of building new temples at a fast pace across the world.  Nevertheless, the dark one took advantage of the disruptions caused by the sickness, sowing much confusion and dissention among the children of men, with some men crying "lo, I am a woman", and others crying "because of injustice of one, it is not just to be subject to laws enforced by many".  And these notions did confuse and anger many, including amongst the saints."   A heck of a lot more interesting than Omni, if you ask me.  

Edited April 8 by NeuroTypical

[ZealoulyStriving]

12 hours ago, Maverick said:

One of the boldest claims the church makes is that the church is led by continuing revelation from God to the President of the church, who along with his counselors and the Quorum of the 12 apostles, we sustain as prophets, seers, and revelators. 

While I don’t doubt that our leaders have often received inspiration and guidance in their callings, my question is why there hasn’t been a single revelation where the direct words of the Lord have been quoted added to our scriptural canon since the revelation Brigham Young received in 1847 in Winter Quarters (D&C 136)? This is literally the last “thus saith the Lord” type revelation quoting the words of the Lord directly added to our scriptures. This was 177 years ago. 

Why hasn’t there been any more revelations like this since? 

I understand that revelation doesn’t always have to come this way and that making prophecies of the future and declaring “thus saith the Lord” first person revelations isn’t all true prophets, seers, and revelators should be expected to do. But why hasn’t there been any of this in such a long time?

This is not a criticism of the brethern. It’s an honest question that has puzzled me for some time now. Any thoughts?

We, the membership, only receive what we prepare ourselves to receive. If there is a lack of "many great and important things" it's because we haven't responded adequately to what we have already been given. Remember the Liahona wouldn't work unless they had the faith to exercise obedience.

I believe Pres. Nelson has much more he has received and wants to reveal it, but unless we get to the House of the Lord as counseled, it will continue to be withheld.

[mikbone]

13 hours ago, Maverick said:

my question is why there hasn’t been a single revelation where the direct words of the Lord have been quoted added to our scriptural canon since the revelation Brigham Young received in 1847 in Winter Quarters (D&C 136)

What about D&C 138   1918

I consider a vision continuing revelation.

[mikbone]

I’m pretty sure we have more revelations than any other dispensation.  Other than the City of Enoch perhaps.

There is great struggle with the Family Proclamation.

I wish that we were ready for more revelations.  That we could live a higher law.  

Don’t think we are ready yet.

 

[Maverick]

10 hours ago, CV75 said:

I think it is a function of more saints having gotten endowed with priesthood power over time. They begin to understand and appreciate where the brethren are coming from and the constant flow of revelation doesn't necessarily require such a formal introduction when communicated or published.

So, if I understand you correctly you are suggesting that we haven’t had a single formal published revelation of God’s precise words since 1847 because the members have received their endowments in the temple and are therefore so in tune with the spirit that formal revelations of God’s direct words are no longer necessary?

[Maverick]

8 hours ago, mikbone said:

What about D&C 138   1918

I consider a vision continuing revelation.

I also consider visions to the president of the church to be continuing revelation, but it’s still not the same thing as quoting the words of God directly. (Not saying it’s better or worse, just different)

1918 was also over 100 years ago. In your opinion, why haven’t there been any visions like this published since?

7 hours ago, mikbone said:

I’m pretty sure we have more revelations than any other dispensation.  Other than the City of Enoch perhaps.

Are you referring to the large body of revelations contained in the D&C or the continued teachings of the brethren since then (which aren’t presented as official revelations from God like the D&C revelations are)?

7 hours ago, mikbone said:

There is great struggle with the Family Proclamation.

It’s certainly being challenged by more and more members of the church, which is deeply troubling. The church has been clear that its an official declaration, which constitutes inspired council, and not a revelation. Which may be part of the problem why more and more members are challenging it. 

7 hours ago, mikbone said:

I wish that we were ready for more revelations.  That we could live a higher law.  

Believe me, so do I. 

7 hours ago, mikbone said:

Don’t think we are ready yet.

Why not? What do you think has been holding us back since 1847 (or 1918)?

[Maverick]

9 hours ago, ZealoulyStriving said:

We, the membership, only receive what we prepare ourselves to receive. If there is a lack of "many great and important things" it's because we haven't responded adequately to what we have already been given. Remember the Liahona wouldn't work unless they had the faith to exercise obedience.

I totally agree. And I think that this gets to the root of the problem. 

10 hours ago, ZealoulyStriving said:

I believe Pres. Nelson has much more he has received and wants to reveal it, but unless we get to the House of the Lord as counseled, it will continue to be withheld.

You could be right. Unfortunately we just don’t know.

Why do you think lack of temple attendance is the reason why President Nelson isn’t revealing all he would like?

[laronius]

10 hours ago, ZealoulyStriving said:

We, the membership, only receive what we prepare ourselves to receive. If there is a lack of "many great and important things" it's because we haven't responded adequately to what we have already been given. Remember the Liahona wouldn't work unless they had the faith to exercise obedience.

I believe Pres. Nelson has much more he has received and wants to reveal it, but unless we get to the House of the Lord as counseled, it will continue to be withheld.

Yes and no. I agree generally that the Lord withholds things until we the members more fully utilize what we have already been given. The prophets have said as much. But when you consider the early days of the Church many revelations came during periods of apostasy or turmoil among members. So you can't just say the members are to blame. I personally believe that the fledgling Church simply needed more support to help it keep going and growing. As the Church became more stabilized the importance of a steady flow of publicly recognized revelation diminished. Looking forward, when all heck starts to break loose again it wouldn't surprise me if that flow picked back up.

[ZealoulyStriving]

56 minutes ago, Maverick said:

I totally agree. And I think that this gets to the root of the problem. 

You could be right. Unfortunately we just don’t know.

Why do you think lack of temple attendance is the reason why President Nelson isn’t revealing all he would like?

It's not necessarily a lack of attendance, but that we need to attend more.

One of Pres. Nelson's primary messages is "go to the House of the Lord as often as circumstances permit". It seems to be the key to everything that is coming.

[Maverick]

11 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

I think about dispensations and folks setting off into new uncharted territory needing guidance from the Lord.  We are a relatively young restored church - a scant 200 years.  The restoration kicked off something that doesn't need a bunch of changes.  The D&C is a record of those changes. 

There have been many, many changes in the church since 1847. Why hasn’t there been any record of God commanding or authorizing any of these changes via a official revelation quoting God’s words?

11 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

I think about how things get canonized, sometimes a lifetime or three after the record is actually made.  It makes me wonder, as the Proclamation on the Family approaches turning 30, if it might become part of the D&C eventually. 

Perhaps it will be canonized some day, but I kind of doubt it. Boyd K. Packer called it a revelation in General Conference but then this was changed to “inspired council” in the printed version of his talk. There are also more and more members of the church who take issue with some of the things stated in the proclamation. A growing number of members consider it to be sexist and transphobic. I think the fact that the church has refused to call it a revelation hasn’t helped combat this. 

11 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

also think about Enos, Jarom, and Omni, books documenting ~300 years of BoM history, and how they get only 3 short chapters.  Enos gains a solid testimony.  The Lamanites resist missionary efforts. Prophets keep prophesying same old stuff. Oh look, it's Zarahmelans.  3 centuries, that's it.  

Omni gets 3 verses.  One verse saying "I'm writing something because my dad told me to."  One saying "I fought a lot, and wasn't a good person."  One saying "Lotta peace, lotta war, nothing much else to say. Wrote this down because it's tradition, so here's my son Amaron for you."   Amaron's record is equally as short and unremarkable.  Holy, sacred scripture at it's most routine and unremarkable.  Omni certainly didn't think anything about him or his record should have been thought of as holy or precious, other than he was an unimportant part of an important story.

It makes me think about what 2020-2024 would look like in scripture.  "A new plague crossed the entire world and killed many of the old and sick.  In the church, there were some disputations about how the sickness should be dealt with, but mostly the saints did their best to practice their religion in safety.  I, Russel M. Nelson, being a doctor by trade, urged the world to receive a medicine, but nevertheless to love all no matter their choice.  The sickness did not stop us from our missionary work, nor did it slow our work of building new temples at a fast pace across the world.  Nevertheless, the dark one took advantage of the disruptions caused by the sickness, sowing much confusion and dissention among the children of men, with some men crying "lo, I am a woman", and others crying "because of injustice of one, it is not just to be subject to laws enforced by many".  And these notions did confuse and anger many, including amongst the saints."   A heck of a lot more interesting than Omni, if you ask me.  

I think you make an excellent point here. 
And if we look at the words of Jarom from this time period we get some additional insights:

1 Now behold, I, Jarom, write a few words according to the commandment of my father, Enos, that our genealogy may be kept.

2 And as these plates are small, and as these things are written for the intent of the benefit of our brethren the Lamanites, wherefore, it must needs be that I write a little; but I shall not write the things of my prophesying, nor of my revelations. For what could I write more than my fathers have written? For have not they revealed the plan of salvation? I say unto you, Yea; and this sufficeth me.

3 Behold, it is expedient that much should be done among this people, because of the hardness of their hearts, and the deafness of their ears, and the blindness of their minds, and the stiffness of their necks; nevertheless, God is exceedingly merciful unto them, and has not as yet swept them off from the face of the land.

4 And there are many among us who have many revelations, for they are not all stiffnecked. And as many as are not stiffnecked and have faith, have communion with the Holy Spirit, which maketh manifest unto the children of men, according to their faith.

5 And now, behold, two hundred years had passed away, and the people of Nephi had waxed strong in the land. They observed to keep the law of Moses and the sabbath day holy unto the Lord. And they profaned not; neither did they blaspheme. And the laws of the land were exceedingly strict.

10 And it came to pass that the prophets of the Lord did threaten the people of Nephi, according to the word of God, that if they did not keep the commandments, but should fall into transgression, they should be destroyed from off the face of the land.

11 Wherefore, the prophets, and the priests, and the teachers, did labor diligently, exhorting with all long-suffering the people to diligence; teaching the law of Moses, and the intent for which it was given; persuading them to look forward unto the Messiah, and believe in him to come as though he already was. And after this manner did they teach them.

12 And it came to pass that by so doing they kept them from being destroyed upon the face of the land; for they did prick their hearts with the word, continually stirring them up unto repentance.

Based on this, it would appear that the majority of the members of the Lord’s church in those days weren’t very righteous, but there were some who were. And the righteous minority were receiving revelations and prophesying. And the reason that these revelations and prophecies weren’t written on the small plates was due to a lack of space (and presumably because they were written on the large plates or other records). 

If this is indeed a parallel to our day, does this suggest that collectively as a people we are so unrighteous that we are not worthy of revelation and prophecy, and those few who are receiving revelations and prophecying are not permitted to publicly share them with the church membership?

[Maverick]

1 hour ago, ZealoulyStriving said:

It's not necessarily a lack of attendance, but that we need to attend more.

One of Pres. Nelson's primary messages is "go to the House of the Lord as often as circumstances permit". It seems to be the key to everything that is coming.

President Nelson has certainly placed a great deal of emphasis on temple attendance. 

When it comes to the temple, there is something that troubles me, namely the many changes to the ordinances of the temple. There have been some pretty significant changes over the years, including a number of significant changes during President Nelson’s tenure. I wonder why this is?

Was there something wrong with the ordinances before? Were the changes because of the hardness of the hearts or limited understanding of the members today? Did God specifically command or authorize every change, or are the brethren just using their best judgment to adjust the temple ordinances to fit what they believe the majority of the members need or can bear at the moment? 

I wish there was a published revelation from God explaining the reason for the changes. Without this we are left to speculate or merely trust that all is well with the changes whatever the reason might be for them. 

Edited April 9 by Maverick

[Carborendum]

On 4/7/2024 at 10:18 PM, Maverick said:

Why hasn’t there been any more revelations like this since? 

There have been.  But the population of the Church is not ready for them.  And we're not going to publicly release new doctrine to the world if the Church itself (as a whole) is not ready for it.

People have received personal revelation to answer specific gospel questions.  These answers have never been written down.  They have not been made public for a reason.

• The world is barely ready for the light and knowledge available to them as it is.
• The membership of the Church is not living according to the light we've already been given.
• How can we expect to learn more as a people if we treat lightly that which we've already been given?

If the whole Church is under such condemnation, then why should we believe we're worthy of more?

One more thing is that there are some higher level realities that can't really be conveyed in human language.  They are concepts that have no words.  They can't be written down in any mortal tongue.  It is only discernible by and communicated through the Spirit.

[Maverick]

20 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

There have been.

How can we know that there have been, since there haven’t been any presented to the church? 

Is this just a matter of faith?

24 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

But the population of the Church is not ready for them.

Not since 1847? Why not? What do you think is holding us back?

26 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

• The membership of the Church is not living according to the light we've already been given.
• How can we expect to learn more as a people if we treat lightly that which we've already been given?

I agree.

But wasn’t this also the case prior to 1847 (or 1918)? In the D&C the Lord says this about the saints in the 1830s, yet they continued to receive revelation and more light and truth from God. 

Why do you think this changed?
 

[ZealoulyStriving]

30 minutes ago, Maverick said:

How can we know that there have been, since there haven’t been any presented to the church? 

Is this just a matter of faith?

Not since 1847? Why not? What do you think is holding us back?

I agree.

But wasn’t this also the case prior to 1847 (or 1918)? In the D&C the Lord says this about the saints in the 1830s, yet they continued to receive revelation and more light and truth from God. 

Why do you think this changed?
 

They may have had their issues also, but they were just coming out of the great apostasy- we have been raised in the truth for, sometimes, multiple generations.

In spite of their problems, many were sacrificing everything, some including their lives, to follow the truth. We celebrate that we only have to go to church for 2 hours- and some people think even that is still too much. And now their being asked to go to the Temple as often as possible?

The wheat and tares are coming to maturity. The separation is coming. Those who choose to follow the counsels of Pres. Nelson at this pivotal, at this "hinge point" in the Restoration will be richly blessed. Hold on, be faithful, practice obedience and the desires of your heart for further light and knowledge will be abundantly fulfilled.

Edited April 9 by ZealoulyStriving

[mirkwood]

51 minutes ago, Maverick said:

 

Not since 1847? Why not? What do you think is holding us back?

 

But wasn’t this also the case prior to 1847 (or 1918)?

 

Why do you think those two years are significant?

[Maverick]

5 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

 

Why do you think those two years are significant?

1847 is the last official revelation that quoted the words of God directly and 1918 is the last recorded vision of a president of the church that have been added to our scriptures.

One being 177 years ago and the other 106 years ago. The question is why it’s been so long since we’ve had either presented to the church and added to our scriptures. 

Edited April 9 by Maverick

[LDSGator]

My question is ignorant and I apologize for it, but is the family proclamation also considered revelation? 

[ZealoulyStriving]

18 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

My question is ignorant and I apologize for it, but is the family proclamation also considered revelation? 

I believe it is being referred to as "inspired counsel"?

[LDSGator]

5 hours ago, ZealoulyStriving said:

I believe it is being referred to as "inspired counsel"?

Thanks. 

Edited April 9 by LDSGator

[Carborendum]

2 hours ago, Maverick said:

But wasn’t this also the case prior to 1847 (or 1918)? In the D&C the Lord says this about the saints in the 1830s, yet they continued to receive revelation and more light and truth from God. 

Why do you think this changed?

Nothing has changed.  And that is the problem.  The Lord was FORCED to open up new doctrines and knowledge to the people of the earth.  There is not time to wait any longer.  Consider that Jacob 5 is not just the history of the apostasy and restoration.  There is some very important information there for the last days.  He COULDN'T wait any longer.

But he only gave enough to give us a chance as individuals to learn more through the Spirit.  Any more knowledge in the public arena would bring even greater condemnation on the Church and the earth as a whole.  

2 hours ago, Maverick said:

How can we know that there have been, since there haven’t been any presented to the church? 

Take a wild guess...

[NeuroTypical]

1 hour ago, ZealoulyStriving said:

1 hour ago, LDSGator said:

is the family proclamation also considered revelation? 

I believe it is being referred to as "inspired counsel"?

There's also a hefty dose of good old fashioned Old Testament-ey prophetic warnings and calls to action in it:

Quote

We warn that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God. Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets.

We call upon responsible citizens and officers of government everywhere to promote those measures designed to maintain and strengthen the family as the fundamental unit of society.

The forces working against the family are pretty much everywhere now.  Plenty of voices decrying outdated European models based on an oppressive patriarchy, plenty of sympathetic ears.

 

[CV75]

16 hours ago, Maverick said:

So, if I understand you correctly you are suggesting that we haven’t had a single formal published revelation of God’s precise words since 1847 because the members have received their endowments in the temple and are therefore so in tune with the spirit that formal revelations of God’s direct words are no longer necessary?

That makes it sound weird, so apologies, let me rephrase: I am suggesting that "Thus saith the Lord..." needn't preface every communicated or published revelation a) when the flow of revelation is constant, as it is with the brethren directing the countless everyday tasks and projects currently underway, and b) the members are spiritually mature enough to not require this to focus their attention and understanding. Both come from the proliferation of endowed priesthood power among the members and brethren.

Perhaps a social backdrop to this, in the USA anyway, is that the common religious language has changed from the 19th century, probably due to secularization of the  language overall, and the practical expediency for religious speakers (to combat resistance and alienation by potential converts) to frame their communication to the modern hearer. Those with ears to hear will hear as they always have (the saints will recognize the Lord's voice nevertheless).

[CV75]

3 hours ago, Maverick said:

1847 is the last official revelation that quoted the words of God directly and 1918 is the last recorded vision of a president of the church that have been added to our scriptures.

One being 177 years ago and the other 106 years ago. The question is why it’s been so long since we’ve had either presented to the church and added to our scriptures. 

As far as new doctrine being revealed, I count the brethren presenting so many new/planned temples, media options to share the word, "programs" and "services" such as self reliance and humanitarian aid, and other non-traditional/unexpected forms of doctrinal revelation is a means of presenting members with opportunities to hear and act on God's voice. This kind of revelation  -- both in the hearing and in the doing, in the "becoming" -- is new in the same way the "new and everlasting covenant" is new. 

Edited April 9 by CV75