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So what am I supposed to do with this now?

Being able to give input on garments isn't new. When I commente to one of the workers at the distribution center that I wished Carinessa was available in petite (I am only five feet tall), she explained to me why they weren't made in petite, but also gave me a form I could fill out with my feedback that would be sent to wherever in the church such things get sent. And as most people know, custom garments are available. I suspect some people (as it seems one of the women quoted did) will misinterpret this as some sort of sign that the church is going to re-design garments to accommodate more revealing clothes. Or get rid of the garment altogether. I've never understood the whining about garments. I have two different medical conditions that can make garment wearing challenging (not to mention my short stature) but I haven't had any issues. I joined the church in 2011 and was endowed a year later. At this point I can't imagine not wearing garments.

When I read the article, I was expecting the delay was something more exciting. Like youth bandits from around the City had blocked construction using farm animals.

What is the average density of Europa?

Spelling checkers and autocorrection can be endless sources of trouble. A co-worker of mine once wrote a long proposal for a client. She was a terrible speller and got into the habit of blindly accepting all the corrections that her software proposed, and she misspelled "faces" in the sentence, "your web site will attract more attention if contains many pictures of human faces." She clicked through to confirm all her spelling corrections and inadvertently accepted another word (with two E's) as the desired spelling without noticing it. The client called a few days later and said, "I got your proposal, thanks, and I have some little questions and one really big question."

Looks to me as if this survey appeared as a fairly neutral, routine thing... but then the Salt Lake Tribune, always worried about keeping its reader base energized and barking, described the survey as a bombshell event that could lead to garments appearing in Victoria's Secret catalogs.

Of course there's also the very real idea that after so many years of having a plural marriage, one is as likely as not (if treating the situation with honor, respect, and diligence) to learn to prefer the situation. I'm thinking that there would probably never be a situation where one prefer the fact that they had to kill their own child (except, of course, as a path to gaining eternal life). The idea that everyone (females included) hated every minute of plural marriage and never had anything but suffering and sacrifice therein is simply not true. I do expect it was challenging for everyone involved therein. But so is monogamous marriage, so that's hardly compelling. We, being small minded as all humans are, cannot see past our own cultural biases. But most of the aversion to plural marriage is just that.

Ah. The long-rumored Speedo® g's are on their way. And we read it in the SLTrib, so we know we can trust it.

I think there is a difference between religious debates and political debates. Religious debates can get heated but at the end of the day in general if I'm LDS and you are a Catholic and we disagree we can simply part ways and while certainly the life in the eternities might be impacted; your religious view won't impact my temporal life and my views won't impact your temporal life. Political debates can become more contentious because if you are conservative and I'm liberal and we disagree and part ways; your view might certainly impact my life and my view might impact your life. It impacts you in the practical day-to-day life by the laws that are passed that put aggression, force, fines, jail, etc. at my doorstep if I don't follow your viewpoint (if your viewpoint carries the day). Ultimately, because both sides believe in using the threat of violence-through laws- to "persuade" the other side they are right, political debates become extremely heated. Instead of debating issues, it can devolve into a thug warlike atmosphere simply because both sides consciously or sub-consciously recognize that to lose the debate will impact their day-to-day lives. It is something that I try my best to explain . . . but fail at. While the non-aggression principle is not perfect (it's a temporal world, nothing is perfect), I believe it is the best methodology and political principle to allow a wide range of personal beliefs and deeply held values to co-exists peacefully. The following article illustrates my point: http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/09/03/see-why-these-liberty-kids-from-california-are-making-national-news/ I have been involved in a political movement that has as diverse a background as this country. I personally have seen atheists, blacks, whites, homosexuals, hindus, etc. come together united as a single voice. Because once someone realizes that I don't want to control their life then they can come to understand that it's not necessary for them to control my life. And once we agree on that, we can sweep out a vast array of laws that give political power (i.e. force) to one group or another. Once we agree on that, then both they and I are on equal footing to debate each other and to try and convince each other of the rightness of our personal beliefs without threatening to invade theirs.

For the purposes of canon law, LDS are non-Christians. LDS baptisms are not recognized by the Catholic Church, and for all intents and purposes we believe that you become Christian through baptism.

Nah, we'll just get a new one. Also, you guys can't offer nearly as awesome an outfit. If it makes you feel better, when they get back to the Catholic Church after leaving Mormonism, they're probably fairly inactive with us as well

"oui en anglais" Yes or No?

An Eagle is not awarded by the church and from what we read in this thread the parents are the ones that make it big or small. The church doesn't parade any ordinance or achievement that is made around for everyone to see. They keep it reverent, at least from what I have witnessed. If one feels that the YW recognition doesn't publicly display what your daughter has achieved then the parents can feel free to make a spectacle about it and invite the entire ward over after church. My son is getting baptized in about a month. The service is planned by me as a parent. The church will announce it during Sunday meetings and that is it. The rest of helping my son know what a great thing he is doing and celebrating is up to me. I have never had a church throw a party for anything priesthood related. I am actually grateful for this thread however. With a daughter soon to go into YW I have some things to think about to make sure that our family recognizes her accomplishments.

For the sake of clarifying my prior post: I'm not saying we shouldn't implement a similar program for young women that is just as rigorous as--and the completion of which, therefore, merits just as much public accolades as--the Eagle Scout program. I'm just saying that, as of now, such a program doesn't exist. The 1915 program, I think, was closer to the mark, at least in terms of the amount of work required (be sure to flip to the back to look at the "structural cells")--but good luck trying to bring that one (or anything like it) back in this era of third-wave feminism. The depressing truth is that a vocal segment of nominal Mormons will fight tooth-and-nail against any program that is designed to reinforce the Church's teachings on family and gender roles to the rising generation.

This has nothing to do with why they want the priesthood. How can it be? Getting your eagle scout has nothing whatsoever to do with the priesthood.

Inexpressibly beautiful, yet made no advances on the gentleman John Carter, because she knew he was hands-off. Ah, such honor and nobility among the savages of Barsoom!

Thuvia, maid of mars

I pretty much agree with Vort's reply. Whatever harm may come, the child has taken no intentional action to cause it. Self-defense, at least as I understand it, normally carries with it the assumption that the other person is making a conscious effort to do you harm

The baby is an innocent because it intends no harm, and in fact is not proactively doing anything to threaten another except existing. The condition is perhaps analogous to an unwitting carrier of a deadly disease who arrives (alone) by boat onto the shores of a new land. You cannot communicate with him, and he will imminently contact others, at which point the disease will spread quickly and wipe out 90% or more of the native population. You can do nothing and millions will die, or you can kill the innocent immigrant and save millions. There are no other options. Which do you choose? This type of Hobson's Choice is not new; it is as old as humanity. Generations far older, wiser, and smarter than us have wrestled with it and failed to find a satisfactory solution. The problem is solvable, but only by taking it to a completely different plane of thought. This is what the Catholic Church has valiantly tried (but IMO failed) to do. I honor them for their efforts. We have no good solution, either. A solution or solutions exist, but they will be revealed from God or found by those who live in Zion, or at least who have the hearts to live there.

Garments have a most interesting history - part of which I have lived through. I survived the difficulties in the military with what was considered non-issues undergarments that was subject to ridicule as well as punishment. Though it was too late for me I am grateful for special considerations for those that serve in the military. When I was a young pup - I competed as a cyclist. I discovered that in order to compete (especially in longer century rides) special clothing that allowed my body to breath was a critical necessity. I crafted a letter to "the brethren" requesting special garments that could be worn during training and completion. I received a letter in reply outlining several reasons why it would be better that I not wear my garments during training and competition rather than a special garment be issued - which "the brethren" believed would become an excuse to consider extreme considerations of the physical law of the covenant rather than the spirit of our sacred opportunity.

This article is also from the Salt Lake Trib which always makes me suspect the reason or agenda behind some of the articles regarding the Church.

Cold Cereal is always good. Shredded wheat or Captain Crunch or Honey Nut Cheerios

Well, after a week of terror in which I was too frightened to return to this thread, I had a sudden burst of courage today and came back to read the remainder of everyone's comments. Thank you all, your remarks were very comforting and encouraging. Perhaps I can find my way back after all.

I would say option one is accurate. If there are two results from an action, we'll call them "A" and "B", and you performed the action because you wanted "A" to happen, then "A" is your intent while "B" is a consequence. I'm kind of with Vort from a couple pages back, we do all agree that killing an innocent human being is wrong, and our differences stem from trying to define which instances count. I appreciate that we're all passionate about what we believe here, and that's good in and of itself, but we could probably all stand to take a deep breath. LDS and Catholics can probably agree that abortion, in most instances, is bad. We can also agree that why you do stuff matters, and that you need to balance the good and bad results of actions. Where we disagree is in whether any action is always wrong, or to put it into Catholic parlance, "intrinsically evil." In the Catholic understanding of things, there are actions that you can never perform in any circumstances, because actions themselves can be evil. LDS (if I understand correctly) do not believe that any action is in-and-of itself evil, but becomes evil based on evil intent and/or consequence. Catholics, incidentally, will also say that actions which aren't intrinsically evil can become evil for those same reasons. Now, because Catholics think certain things, like murder, are intrinsically evil, we have to narrow down when specifically "murder" is taking place. In other words, when is it killing somebody, and when is their death an unfortunate side effect. This is not an issue for LDS because killing as-such isn't necessarily evil because you're killing, only because of the consequences and intention (i.e. death and the desire to inflict it). I think this is where a lot of the "hair splitting" comes in, because we are trying to make a distinction that for LDS simply does not need to be made. I still think that the problems are based more on our definitions of good and evil, and more remotely our differences on God's acts of creation. After all, the Augustinian definition of good used by most Catholics (the lack of some good proper to a thing) is largely based on our need to account for evil in a cosmos where everything was created by God. Again, this is not a distinction LDS need to make because God organized the world from pre-existent matter, so any evil would not have had to have been part of God's act of organization. Of course, if I messed anything up on the LDS side of things, I am always open for correction :)

Where did the SLTribune describe the survey like that? I've read the link posted in the OP and I'm not reading any such thing. M.

I'm glad even if delayed, that construction is still going well. I like EarlJibbs was expecting something a little more exciting

Several Catholics have joined fairly recently. Interesting trend. Welcome to the forums :)

Haha We're doing some testing on the lag time. :)

105 persons per km2?

Lots of those Utah pioneer women gave as good as they got. I have an ancestor who came to Utah as a widow with two young children, by train, in the 1860s. A sympathetic stranger with a team and wagon at the train depot in Ogden, offered to take her part of the way down to Salt Lake. Along the way they stopped at his own home to get food and supplies for the trip. Supposedly, his wife saw the wagon pull up in front of the house and saw her husband--along with a strange woman and a couple of kids--get out. The story goes that the wife then came running out of the house and screamed something to the effect of "If you've gone and married yourself another wife, you just keep right on driving, mister!"

Yeah, Romney's dithering seems unbecoming to someone who wants to work in the West Wing. I think Romney's done, though. We're at the point where candidates start rounding up their campaign staffs and getting commitments from their donor base, and Romney's core was already starting to drift off to other campaigns (Jeb Bush in particular). The opportune moment for Mitt to unambiguously state that he was definitely in the game, was about a month ago. He didn't do it, and the moment has passed. I've heard some people suggest that he was actually trying to keep Jeb Bush from building a head of steam until some other candidates could pick up some momentum (Scott Walker does seem to be making progress in that regard.) I'm not sure what I think about that; but Romney does seem to have become a lightning rod for media hit pieces in the last week--and it seems they've been so busy attacking him that they've sort of forgotten to attack the Republicans who might actually be in the race. :)

Welcome to the Forums!

I get that killing the baby is not the desired out come, in fact if there was any other way I am sure that would be the direction to go... But in big bold letters I was told it was about the INTENT. Words have meaning and they can mean different things to different people. I said before intent is a messy subject Lets try another example. You know for a fact that your toddler will eat rat poison and die from it. You also know you have a rat problem in your house. So you go to the store and buy rat poison. You set the rat poison out with the INTENT to kill the rats (that is what matters right?) All while knowing that your child will eat the rat poison you set out and die. This happens some rats and your toddler die. So are you morally ok because you INTENDED only to kill the rats? Or are you morally in trouble because of what you knew your actions would lead to?

Until he changes his mind again at least

I'm happy for him and for his family. Too bad for the US as a whole, but they (we) made their choice in 2012. So far, most people profess to be happy about the choice. So be it.

And, I might add, implementing such a program for YW would (obviously, I mean, come on) not require giving the priesthood to them.

100 years old, and that program puts to shame most of the expectations we as a society put on our children, which seem limited largely to "don't molest anyone while playing video games".

I tell my kids that there is no end to how much I love each one of them, but that the way I show love to each is a little different, simply because each of their needs are different. Sometimes it is tough helping them understand the differences. On topic, the YW Medallion while extremely important is just not the same level as earning an Eagle Scout. Quickly looked over the requirements (I'm sure I'll be more familiar with it later in life), it requires hard work in 8 separate areas and looking at the requirements of each area it seems to me that each area is analogous to a BSA merit badge. Earning an Eagle is extremely prestigious. Only 5% of the boys who are ever Boy Scouts ever earn their Eagle. I imagine this is more in places like Utah, but even there unless it's handed to you on a silver platter (which should not be done) it is still very prestigious. Let's list the requirements for Eagle: Be active in your troop, team, crew, or ship for a period of at least six months after you have achieved the rank of Life Scout. Demonstrate that you live by the principles of the Scout Oath and Scout Law in your daily life. List on your Eagle Scout Rank Application the names of individuals who know you personally and would be willing to provide a recommendation on your behalf, including parents/guardians, religious, educational, and employer references. Earn a total of 21 merit badges (10 more than you already have), including the following: First Aid Citizenship in the Community Citizenship in the Nation Citizenship in the World Communication Cooking Personal Fitness Emergency Preparedness OR Lifesaving Environmental Science OR Sustainability Personal Management Swimming OR Hiking OR Cycling Camping Family Life You must choose only one merit badge listed in items h, i, and k. If you have earned more than one of the badges listed in items h, i, and k, choose one and list the remaining badges to make your total of 21. While a Life Scout, serve actively in your unit for a period of six months in one or more of the following positions of responsibility. List only those position served after your Life board of review date. Boy Scout troop. Patrol leader, assistant senior patrol leader, senior patrol leader, Venture patrol leader, troop guide, Order of the Arrow troop representative, den chief, scribe, librarian, historian, quartermaster, junior assistant Scoutmaster, chaplain aide, instructor, webmaster, or Leave No Trace trainer. Varsity Scout team. Captain, cocaptain, program manager, squad leader, team secretary, Order of the Arrow team representative, librarian, historian, quartermaster, chaplain aide, instructor, den chief, webmaster, or Leave No Trace trainer. Venturing crew/ship. President, vice president, secretary, treasurer, quartermaster, historian, den chief, guide, boatswain, boatswain's mate, yeoman, purser, storekeeper, webmaster, or Leave No Trace trainer. While a Life Scout, plan, develop, and give leadership to others in a service project helpful to any religious institution, any school, or your community. (The project must benefit an organization other than Boy Scouting.) A project proposal must be approved by the organization benefiting from the effort, your unit leader and unit committee, and the council or district before you start. You must use the Eagle Scout Service Project Workbook, BSA publication No. 512-927, in meeting this requirement. (To learn more about the Eagle Scout service project, see the Guide to Advancement, topics 9.0.2.0 through 9.0.2.15.) Take part in a unit leader conference. Successfully complete an Eagle Scout board of review. In preparation for your board of review, prepare and attach to your Eagle Scout Rank Application a statement of your ambitions and life purpose and a listing of positions held in your religious institution, school, camp, community, or other organizations, during which you demonstrated leadership skills. Include honors and awards received during this service. (This requirement may be met after age 18; see below.)This is on top of earning all the other rank advancements. i.e. earning Tenderfoot, 2nd Class, 1st Class, Star, and Life scouts, each ones requirements require a significant amount of work. Even after one completes the Eagle Scout project, one goes before the District review board (people you don't know) and has a fairly lengthy interview that can go for 20+ minutes. They test skill on knots, projects, life-skills, situational awareness etc. Those who have never been seriously involved in scouts can think "well why is it such a big deal"; they don't do recognition for women like this, etc. It is such a big deal b/c it requires a level of effort across a good span of time that is unheard of anywhere else for young men. It is no coincidence that a high percentage of the businessmen and leaders in the United States are Eagle Scouters (a higher percentage as compared to normal population). For a young man, coming out of high-school/college if an employer sees "Eagle Scout" on the application, they immediately know they are getting a higher quality candidate. The above is just not the case with YW Medallions. I certainly believe that if the YW medallion was the female equivalent of the Eagle Scout it would be celebrated at the level of an Eagle Scout . . . but its not the equivalent. In my family, in addition to the ceremony each of the boys when they completed received a very nice hand-crafted homemade plaque. The girls had other rewards for their accomplishments. Each is different and consequently were treated differently. While the method of celebration for your sons achievement is completely up to you; please recognize that his achievement is a big deal and as someone else said like a graduation.

This probably needs it's own thread... I'm not the pretty sibling- I'll freely admit it. That title belongs to my third sister, and she puts a lot of work into her appearance, whereas I just don't care about that stuff. Now, if you want to talk puzzles that's a different story... You can't treat kids identical-- it's just not possible. And even if you could, that'll be robbing them of their individuality. What's more important is that each kid is recognized and loved equally.

Kraken

Whether you reckon time using the Gregorian or Julian calendars will affect this. For that matter, the name "December" predates the Julian calendar, what with the last month containing the prefix "Dec" meaning ten, implying that it was used in a different calendar system where it was the tenth month. I think July (for Julius Cesar) and August (for Augustus Cesar) were the two added months. Also, in that ten month calendar, it probably wouldn't have started with the birth of Christ since it would have had its origins before his advent. As such, depending on which calendar system you use, I may or may not have been born in December. Do you like yogurt?

Hopefully Clair will jump in here too, but in the mean time here's my answer :) Self defense is when you exert as much force as is necessary in order to try and stop the attack of an aggressor. An unborn baby is not "attacking" his or her mother. It is not the baby's fault that his existence is putting his mom's life at risk. He is completely innocent because he isn't committing any sin, and the fact that his existence is putting his mom's life at risk is 100% due to natural causes, not due to an evil baby deliberately attacking his mom. An intruder going into your house with a knife and trying to stab you is not the same thing as the presence of a baby inside your body resulting in medical problems.

I would also point out that it is not just the Eagle Scout project we're considering. The Eagle Scout rank is the culmination of many years of directed effort, analogous perhaps to graduating from high school. And it's incidental to the Church, although of course highly respected. I don't know of any Church literature or any kind of official teaching (above the local level) stating that young men should make it a priority to attain the rank of Eagle Scout.

There’s only been one incident in my life where I’ve church gender issues thrown in my face, and it was this issue. My Grandpa’s a big scout supporter- any time a grandkid has a Court of Honor he rearranges his schedule and flies to be there. When I earned my Young Women’s Award, it was going to recognized at our YW New Beginnings. I was “in charge” of planning that New Beginnings, so I carefully arranged things to be the week of my Grandpa’s annual visit. Excitedly I asked him if he could extend his stay one night so he could see me get my award. And he said “no”. I was crushed! Thankfully he saw the error in his ways and did stay (my mom ‘enlightened’ him). But that was a tough experience for me. *Disclaimer: I make no comment on the YW vs Eagle Scout work load. I’ve no brothers so I’ve never seen the work they put into it. I know that the work put in the YW award varied greatly between me and each of my sisters. I also know that people liked to be recognized different ways (I would have been mortified at a Court of Honor for me).

Are you saying there is THREE of you ?? Lol!!!

@ Vort: But girls are more inherently righteous than boys, doncha know? @ Crypto: It should probably be noted that India and much of the Islamic bloc suffer from widespread infanticide of baby girls. So does China, in point of fact--they just call it "selective abortion".

The problem from an LDS doctrinal standpoint is that if more boys are born than girls, yet more women than men survive into adulthood, that means a lot more baby boys and boy children die than girls (which is true). Our theology teaches that these are exalted, so...if anything, that suggests an overabundance of males, not females. Not that I believe such statistical arguments. I don't. But if they are to be used, they argue rather against polygyny instead of for.

Committed, believing Catholics tend to be great people, so yes, they make great Mormons. In my experience as a missionary in Italy, most baptized members tended to be inactive, and a fairly high percentage more or less went back to the Catholic Church, at least ritually speaking. But faithful Italian members are as wonderful as any other faithful members. And as an added bonus, they speak Italian fluently.

there's some that I'll doing all the pleading i can with God to let them get more in the next life.... and then there's some that could use a good kick in the butt, maybe a couple that could use an around the world wedgie. All in all they seem to be good folks. (and i can say the same about LDS too lol)

I am a scientist and engineer as well as a devout High Priest in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I deal with secular and religious issues on a daily basis. For the most part I enjoy and applaud the religious devout regardless of religion. But I also recognize that many of the greatest atrocities in history are mostly done by devout believers in the name of G-d and religion. I forget the exact play but Shakespeare dealt in part with the issue of devout believers when a King went among his army incognito prior to a very important battle. The question arises who is responsible for the evils of war - the king or his followers? The king argues that each individual should be held accountable for their actions. The men argue that the king is responsible for the results of going to war. Shakespeare is smart avoid the main problems and does not resolve the discussion. Many are of the notion that what ever their religion teaches they must believe to be saved - that such is the actual exorcize and expression of faith. I am not of this thought. Faith has a place but it was never intended to replace the truth. Faith is a means to the truth - not an excuse to ignore it. With this in mind I am more interested in what an individual believes and what sacrifices they have made in their path to truth. I am not interested in what the Catholic church teaches - I am interested in what you believe and why you believe what you do. As part of my scientific work - I test empirical elements to their very limits to determine their validity. If you like I will take you on a journey for truth that we can walk together and make serious considerations. I have no intention to offend you but to clarify what you believe and why. Jesus said that if we will do his word we will know that his word is true. He did not say it is true because it is written in scripture or taught at church. I am not discounting scripture or religion - except that scripture and religion has failed as a means of resolving differences among devout Christians.