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Geez I don't know Pale. Who did you run into? It must have been a very exciting person for you to have mentioned it here on the forums.

FWIW I vaguely remember a high school Bible camp in which an LDS young lady had come (it was a denominational week-long youth event, so apparently she had permission to be there) and gone to the altar for salvation (conversion). She was joyful, emotional, but clear in her understanding that she was accepting Jesus into her heart--something she apparently did not feel she had done to that point. On the one hand, she was underage. On the other, her family let her come to the camp. As IrishColleen said, I'm sure that the youth pastor of the church that brought her would want to see her grow--meaning develop a strong Christian life and practice. I'm also sure he communicated with deference and respect for the girl's parents. I'm not sure what anyone here would say, other than to hope that the church staff, and the girl's friends, will be as sensitive and respectful of the LDS parents as possible. The parents may even tell the girl she can't go to that church or be that child's friend anymore. While that would probably not be wise, given most older teen's feeling of autonomy, I could see many Evangelical parents panicking, if the situation were reversed, and taking that kind of action. The worst possible outcome is that the young convert become so discouraged over how the adults on both sides react, that she decides none of it is true. So, walk carefully, prayerfully, humbly, respectfully, and keep loving the young lady, regardless of how this plays out.

Folks, I think it's time we gave Irishcolleen the truth. Irish, we've already contacted the parent's bishop, and he's picked up the entire family (as well as every LDS neighbor in a 2 block radius), and shipped them off to SLC for re-conditioning. They'll be kept in cells in the secret dungeon underneath the temple, and forced to watch Johnny Lingo until they convince a panel of Strengthening the Members committee personnel that they're not open to outside Christianity. Then, after they wrestle the giant frog into submission, they're free to leave. The girl has temporarily given us the slip though. Please return her to us, or else we'll have Mitt Romney get elected president and pass a law against Baptists.

I recently returned from a two week fishing trip in Alaska, and while the rest of you are at church (and I'm unfortunately at work) I thought I'd relate a little story about my visit to a ward while I was there. Because of the Church callings I've had for the past 15+ years I haven't attended a HP group class during that time. Last Sunday I did, and if my memory hasn't failed, not much has changed. The subject of the lesson was the Holy Ghost, and with the exception of an opening statement by the instructor I don't recall the Holy Ghost being mentioned during the next hour. The discussion began with a note about Father's Day, followed by a discussion of Father's Day gifts, which transitioned into a discussion of tools and home repairs, which somehow morphed into a discussion about old John Wayne movies, which mysteriously evolved into a debate about disciplining children. It might sound contradictory, but I found myself amused and depressed at the same time. I should have tried to steer the conversation back to the lesson subject but instead I just kept my mouth shut and watched the clock. Like I said, it's been 15+ years since I sat in a High Priest class, and it seems like it was much the same back then. How does it go for those of you who attend regularly in your own wards?

Hello everyone, it's been a few years since I was last on this site (no my account wasn't suspended) and I've been so busy since then with my job (well former job, the IRS shut them down for tax evasion, insider trading and other federal white-collar crimes, and my manager and 3 other co-workers were stealing from the branch I worked at), that it wasn't until I lost my job that I actually had time for something other than work and daily living (daily living include reading my scriptures and Patriarchal Blessing everyday) and thought why not see how much (or how little) lds.net has changed.

There is a saying that gifts of money and things are nothing more than cheap substitutes of the real thing. If you are either unaware of any real needs or aware that there are no real needs - then I would suggest that your attendance and support of their union is the actual need and gift most expected. If you insist on some token gift and if they are true friends - whatever you get will be more than fine and appreciated.

Money or gift card a restaurant they like.

Your response seems rather hostile. The girl went to Colleens church, what do you think would be preached? LDS Doctrine? OP stated asked if they should reach out to the parents since the teen was showing interest, which is the perfect thing to do and one that the LDS church would suggest for minors.

We ran intto Pam and she finally got to meet Mrs Palerider ........ Lol!!! Then I had them both giving me grief.

That's very interesting! Imaginary numbers are a constant source of amusement. I remember reading this paradox a while back: -1=i^2=sqrt(-1)*sqrt(-1)=sqrt(-1*-1)=sqrt(1)=1, so -1=1 and 1+1=0. I once showed that to the head of our math school; she was stumped for a while, but later got back to me with the suggestion that you need to say sqrt(1)=-1 at the last step. (But why isn't the positive root just as valid?) Another solution I found on the web is that the rule sqrt(a)*sqrt(b)=sqrt(a*b) is not valid when a and b are both imaginary.

Perhpas that was the Spirit nudging you ..? :) Not that it's your sole responsibility to guide the discussion or usurp it... especially when you're just visiting the Ward... still, you have a testimony... would that not invite the Spirit? Also, sometimes when we take a more active part in the discussion that can change how we personally perceive it .. That being said, I don't know if it's all that unusual for a lesson to occasionally be derailed or lose focus sometimes... Not all teachers are equally adept at keeping discussions on topic.. especially in some wards where the level of experience may not be as deep as in some more "seasoned" wards.. And some High Priests may also have a tendency to ramble now and then (myself included...) :)

Just missed you. I was holed up in the Family History Library all day Saturday.

In the lead up to my dad's retirement, he negotiated a deal with his employer that allowed him to work a certain number of weeks each year for the next three years. This phased approach to retirement seemed to work out pretty well both for him and the business. It avoided some of the problems that can happen when you jump straight from full time employment to full time retirement.

A widow might know of the story you are referring to. :)

Not a movie, but I finally got caught up with the third season of "Longmire" on Netflix. Very highly recommend. And we watched "Woman in Gold" again last night from iTunes. I'm a WWII and art history and Tatiana Maslany nut, but it was just as great on second viewing, nevermind my biases.

I want one...... It's perfect to go around Nauvoo while visiting

I heard they just alternated the movies.

Jesus wasn't creating contention or division. With his insightful counter-question he was exposing the hypocrisy and duplicity of the so-called spiritual leaders. The contention and division was already there.. firmly planted in the hearts of these wicked and conspiring men. In a masterful way he quickly exposed it and then refused to answer since it was not an honest inquiry to begin with. So, what I take away from this is that pure evil has no desire to ever reach an understanding .. only to dominate and/or destroy all differing views by whatever means available. We cannot ever become unified with it.. only expose it and banish it or stand in silent testimony against it if we're required of the Lord to endure it and not yet allowed to remove ourselves from it.

I don't see anything wrong with children/grandchildren expressing their opinions in this situation. I am confident - from having read your posts over the years - that it would be done in respectful, loving manner. And that's exactly why you are doing it - out of love. I frankly felt a little sad reading your post. I know that men tend to wrap their whole identity up in their careers, but I can't say that I really understand that. So I know that there are men who do feel lost without a job. But - especially if they are financially able to do so - I wish they would step back and take a look at the bigger picture, the impact it has on the family. In today's world, I also wonder what happened to the concept of working hard now so that you can have those later years with the family (not that family isn't important in those younger years, but I think you know what I mean)? If you don't need to, why work until the day you drop dead? What exactly has been accomplished? The situation you described is compounded by the fact that he is away from family for long periods of time. So they don't even get to see him on a daily basis. I find that very sad. His family is missing out on the joy of spending time with him, and he is missing out on the same. Then there is his health. If it's already a little shaky....is he really okay with the idea of possibly dropping dead some day, far away from his family and not having seen them for a while? I heard some kind of quote years ago about no man ever lay on his deathbed and wished he'd spent more time at work instead of with his family. One of my co-workers retired just before Christmas. She hadn't planned on retiring just yet, but in a few more years. Her husband abandoned the family long ago and so she has always been the primary parent and breadwinner. Her children and grandchildren sat her down last fall and expressed their concerns. She'd worked hard all of her life to provide for her family. Her family was always her first priority, she always put their needs ahead of her own. They expressed their concern for her health (she'd had major injuries from a car accident that took a permanent toll and developed some health issues as she got older). They expressed their love for her, their deep appreciation for all of the sacrifices she had made over the decades, and their desire to see her have time to enjoy life and time to do something other than work all of the time. And in this case, they backed up their words with putting together their own resources to make it financially feasible for her to retire now, rather than later. So they expressed their thoughts and their love (and offered solutions if wanted/needed) and then let her be to make her won decision. And even as much as the place we work has become a nightmare to work at and work had become a nightmare for the first time in her 40 something years of working, she still struggled a little with the decision to retire early. What made the difference for her was - not surprisingly - the needs of her family. It wasn't her feeling that they needed her, it was them saying Mom...Grandma....we need more time with you while it is still possible. She did it more for them than for herself. I have seen her since she retired and I have never seen her as joyful in the years I have known her as she is now. I know I'm a girl and don't get the guy's point of view but, boy, if I could afford to retire and be able to spend more time with family and on things like callings and helping people...I'd be out the door in a flash. So, yeah, I personally think that it's okay for the kids and grandkids to lovingly and respectfully voice their opinion. He is ultimately going to make his own decision either way, but you never know what kind of impact you may have. He may come to appreciate it just as my co-worker did.

How sad. This is so tragic that it is not even mockable. A parent who has no idea how to parent, who is at a loss what to do with a FOUR-YEAR-OLD. People create children, then expect to ship them off and are incapable of raising them.

Personally I'm glad we don't teach about other faiths. To be blunt, what makes us experts on "other" faiths? We are encouraged to seek truth and inspiration wherever it may be and so learning to understand other's beliefs is an individual prerogative. It's also an opportunity to step out of our comfort zones and to create relationships with those outside our religion.

Here is an interesting blog post that I read today: http://www.sixteensmallstones.org/lds-apostle-d-todd-christofferson-did-not-say-that-it-is-okay-for-lds-members-to-support-same-sex-marriage/ Even though the partial transcript I made of an interview with LDS Apostle D. Todd Christofferson is a few months old, in the aftermath of the U.S. Supreme Court’s ruling on same-sex marriage, the post has received a considerable number of views during the last three days. Most of these visits are coming from Facebook conversations to which I do not have access, but I imagine that the transcript is being used in debates by members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints reacting to the Supreme Court’s action. I think it is clear from the parts that I have transcribed that Elder Christofferson did NOT say that there is nothing wrong with members of the church supporting same-sex marriage. He said that expressing personal support for same-sex marriage in social media would not be cause for discipline (as long as it wasn’t part of an organized effort to undermine the church). At the same time, he was clear that the doctrine of the church will not change regarding the law of chastity and the sinfulness of homosexual actions and behaviors (which an official statement by the church in reaction to the ruling reaffirms). And he implied that the church would try use persuasion to try to teach members that their support of same-sex marriage is contrary to God’s will.

If its anything like the hendo board, probably around 10k

I currently meet with the deacons, so I haven't been with the high priests in some time. But I love my high priest group meetings. They occasionally drag, but usually they are filled with interesting, lively conversation and testimony. I have a great bunch of men in my group, and meeting with them has been a highlight of many of my past (and, I hope, future) Sundays.

I don't doubt that the President will be a major part of the cheerleading section when government starts affirmatively penalizing conservative churches. But--lets be honest--that's not what he's saying, at least if the article is accurate. He's saying that he thinks his own opinions are right, those who disagree with him are wrong, and he hopes they'll change their minds. It's pretty standard political fare.

Well, first off, Thomas takes a lot of ink to argue that gay marriage bans are not actually infringement on liberty per se. He then suggests that even the majority knows darned well that this isn't about classical "liberty"--hence, their preoccupation with "dignity" instead. Thomas cites, especially, pages 3, 13, 26, and 28 of Kennedy's majority opinion, which each suggest that marriage confers dignity on a couple (whether gay or straight). From there--we're into Section IV of the dissent now--Thomas rejects this notion of government granting dignity to anyone. Dignity, in Thomas' view, is something innate and immutable; conferred by God Himself (a proposition for which he cites the Declaration of Independence). Thomas is basically saying "Buck up, gay people! You were human beings before this decision, just as much as you are human beings after it Quit looking to government to provide you with your sense of individual worth!" (And I think he's also giving conservatives the same message--that they have dignity that cannot be taken away, no matter how obnoxiously our Dear Leader and the Libertine Mafia may be spiking the football at present.) Moreover, neither dignity, nor (I'm extrapolating now) respect, nor warm fuzzies, nor companionship, nor an active and healthy sex life; are benefits that our Constitution requires governments to guarantee, anyways. Now, to come back to your post a little more directly: Did slaves and internees lose their dignity? Justice Thomas would actually reply in the negative. They lost "life", "liberty", and "property", which the Constitution guarantees--and from a philosophy-of-law standpoint, that's what made those people's predicaments so egregious. They also certainly didn't have the respect of their broader society--but again, it's not government's role to ensure the respectability of each citizen. But their "dignity", Justice Thomas asserts--they kept that throughout. Think of Joseph Smith, standing in chains and rebuking the guards at the Liberty Jail, and Parley Pratt recalling that he never saw majesty in any European court the way he did that night in Liberty. That's the sort of thing we're talking about here.

As a friend recently posted on Facebook: My Facebook feed looks like a fight just broke out between the Confederates and a Skittles factory.

Thanks for the correction of Euler's equation vs. Euler's identity, Jamie. I note that in addition to: i = e^(iθ) for all θ = ½π(1 + 4n), it's also true that: i = -e^(iθ) for all θ = ½π(3 + 4n). Not that this has any real philosophical relevance to anything we're discussing, of course. Just saying.

We do it because God loves torturing certain men, who clearly needed a major attitude adjustment.

1. Managing the storehouse - Delegation. He uses the E.Q. Presidency, the HP group leaders, and RS Pres. (and they use home teachers) to evaluate needs and form action committees to recommend courses of action to help members in need for the Bishop. 2. Managing the church's funds (D&C 72:10) - Delegation. He uses the Ward financial clerk and the counselors in the bishopric to count, enter and deposit tithing funds. Each ward council presidency and member (like activates committee, YSA) summits a budget for approval. 3. Meeting with every ward member who has an emotional or financial issue. Delegation. Many of these issues are addressed per #1 above. Every ward member, their time and talents are part of the Bishop's storehouse. A member with skill as an accountant, lawyer, social worker, or whoever he deems able to help may assigned to assist. 4. Meeting with every BYU student every summer who needs their ecclesiastical endorsement (THAT must get old!) I doubt seeing someone they watched grow up making something of their lives could ever get old. All in all, the key is inspiration and delegation.

For me, it comes down to this: The purpose of the church in terms of two of its three fold missions (i.e. to proclaim the gospel and perfect the saints) is to prepare God's children for temple blessings; specifically eternal marriage/eternal families. As members, it becomes incumbent on us to support that effort. By a member of the church supporting gay marriage, they are in effect supporting something not only contrary to the purposes of the church, but something that is contrary to God's will for His children. There is no place in the new and everlasting covenant of marriage for a homosexual union. If a member of the church cannot find it within themselves to promote the gospel and the eternal ordinances, it seems to me, the least they could do is not support something to the contrary.

Having gone back and read your edited reply, allow me one last response. Then I'm finished with this thread. Marc, I wish I were there with you so you could see and hear me, because I am being as sincere and gentle as I know how. I don't expect an immediate reply--I don't expect a reply at all, really. Just offering food for serious thought. Please, consider the following: If you truly believe that Jesus Christ, His atonement and the Holy Ghost are incapable or unable to bless us, to change our hearts to the point that we can judge as He does, what does that imply? Anyone who believes within his heart of hearts that we cannot judge righteously (or develop any other divine attribute), then he will not try. If he never tries, he will never gain the ability to do so (or develop that divine attribute, whatever it is). It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Ultimately, it an indication of a lack of faith, and faith we must have and exercise if we are to become like Him. It is possible! If I may, I'd make one last suggestion. Stop focusing on the fallen nature (fool, imperfect, sinner) and focus on being a son of God, one who is of royal birth, one who is one of God's convent people. Focus on the eternal nature--see and recognize your potential as a God. It is life changing! We must believe (have the faith) that He can change us just as He says He can. We must not only believe in Christ, we must believe what He says as it pertains to us individually. When we do, then, wonderful and miraculous things begin to happen in our lives and to our character, through our Savior's atonement, not through anything we do ourselves.

Been following this thread for a while. Not sure what to say until now. Being converted to the restored gospel of Jesus Christ as an adult, perhaps I see things differently than others. I have to ask, in all sincerity, how can anyone who claims to have a testimony of the divinity of Jesus Christ (and all that implies) stand up and proudly say he supports gay marriage (and all that implies)? The two declarations are diametrically opposed. In all honestly, it's beyond my ability to comprehend.