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My feelings exactly. It is not the ignorance, but the faithlessness, that I find galling.

And just think, up until June 26 2015, everyone was all "All we want is the right to marry. Give us that and you and your church can go do whatever it wants." They didn't want to tell us what to do, they didn't want us to tell them what to do. It was such an easy choice. Right?

Modesty as a principle is literally not even understood by many of this generation. It is an attitude, reflected in but not defined by clothing choices. Modesty is the refusal to use one's body as a sexual bargaining chip. Sexuality is (or should be) sacred and precious; modest people are those who keep it as such. The Saudi Muslim girl who exposes some of her scalp and makes eyes at the boys is being immodest, while the American Christian girl who wears shorts and a short-sleeved blouse to a service activity may well be perfectly modest. It is not primarily a matter of clothing, but of intent.

All missionaries are safe and were told to stay inside

https://www.lds.org/pages/church-handbook-changes?lang=eng Here is a copy of a letter sent to all Church leaders down to Bishops.

jdDUB, I don't think your situation is as hopeless as you believe it is. If you moved back in with your parents and they didn't demand rent, and you worked a minimum wage job, in a year you'd have $15K. That should be more than enough to retire all of the debt--so long as you are willing to work and wait, and your parents really are as willing to facilitate this as they claim to be--and you'll still be young enough to serve a mission. Also: Don't believe your debt collector if they tell you they won't accept partial payments (debt collectors lie, routinely, for a number of reasons that I won't get into here). If you send 'em a check, they'll almost certainly cash it and apply it to your outstanding balance. So, I'd suggest sending them a small-ish check for $25-$50, and follow up in a month or so to verify that it did get applied. Once you confirm that, start sending them payments for as much as you can, as often as you can (and for the love of all things holy, KEEP IMPECCABLE RECORDS). The sooner the debt gets paid down, the less interest accrues.

Even with this clarification we have members who are posting this, Particularly this statement: Sustaining the Handbooks, is sustaining the prophet and apostles. As I have shared previously this quote from President Harold B. Lee, "Divine Approval":

The solution to the problem of the sexualization of women is not modesty. The solution to the problem of pornography addictions is not modesty. Any man or woman can "undress" and think inappropriately about a woman's body with modest clothing on. You cannot control the mind of a man or woman with the intent to sexualize a woman/man. The solution to these problems is changing how we view each other. That we are sons and daughters of God. That girl, who is in a porn movie, is a daughter of God, and DOES NOT deserve to be viewed as a sexualized object just because she is dressed "provocatively" in your mind. She also does not deserve to be raped just because she was dressed "immodestly/provocatively" (I don't believe you are assuming this but I want to make that very clear for anyone who believes such a foolish notion). I don't ever think this will be a solution feasible in our society. But we cannot just say "hey women, stop dressing so provocatively. It's reminding me of the porn I watch and makes me want to sexualize you". This is completely putting the women at fault when they have done NOTHING. You may say that they have by dressing immodestly. There may be women out there who specifically dress provocatively to get the attention of men. That is THEIR choice. For LDS members, who are taught to treat their body as a temple and respect the gift they have been given from God, the choice of modesty is between the individual, God, and their parents (if under the age of 18). Any repercussions beyond their choice of dress (i.e., someone sexualizing her/him because of their choice of clothing) is the fault of the person choosing to follow the ill thoughts of their mind. We have agency to choose to dress modestly or not. We have agency to choose to not view a man or woman with sexual intent. We have agency to choose to look at pornography or not. I do believe it can become an addiction and I do believe and know the power of addictions. But we are not a slave to our mind. There will always be immodestly dressed individuals on this Earth (intentionally or unintentionally). As to your studies about men viewing pornography and then gradually assuming rape is okay: this is not in the case for "regular" pornography. This is only the case for violent pornography. The correlations about pornography and less understanding about consent, rape, assault, etc. is found for only violent pornography. This does not mean I think any form of pornography is better than the other. It is all horrific and detrimental to society. I understand your reasoning and I am so very sorry for the things you have experienced in your past. But I cannot agree that modesty is the solution to this overwhelming problem.

I think this is a little like saying that yeast infections are not a female-specific problem, or that breast cancer is not a female-specific problem. Both statements are true, technically. But no health care professional would make such a statement. There is not (currently) nearly as much of an industry for male-centered pornography as for female-centered porn; what exists is mostly homosexual in nature. The reasons for this are obvious: The natural man is attracted to nekkid women, loves to see women's body parts, up close or in a more overall context, and in general just likes the look of an attractive women sans clothing. The natural woman does not typically have this same response; the sight of a nude man, even an attractive one, typically doesn't do a whole lot for a woman. Thus, women commonly trade on their sexuality with regards to men, but men do not trade on their sexuality with women -- or at least not in the same way. Female immodesty results in catcalls, ogling, appreciative looks, indecent proposals -- in short, attention, much of which might be perceived as positive. Male immodesty typically results in mocking and insults. So the two simply are not equivalent, and the difficulties of immodesty are nowhere near equally divided between the sexes.

Very well clarified. Many people should feel embarrassed about this entire thing. Not for the lack of understanding, but for taking to social media to publicly declare their frustrations and anger for not understanding immediately upon hearing from sources that have ulterior motives. I was reminded last night while reading in 1st Nephi that Nephi wanted to understand the mysteries of God as his father (a Prophet) did. Instead of whining and complaining to everyone about it (as we do to social media) Like Laman and Lemuel, he prayed to God and was visited and learned for himself. We see this pattern in the BOM many times, if you have questions and concerns go to the Lord, seek to be reassured by the Holy Ghost, do not trust in the understanding of men, uninspired men and women will surely lead astray. I have a feeling that this is what will separate the faithful from the unfaithful more and more. I was warned by my Bishop years ago, as he was warned by the brethren that a storm was coming and I needed to make sure my testimony was strong and that my family was as strong to weather the storm. Those warnings have been ringing true ever since.

This is part two about modesty. Read part one first. So, what are reasons for being modest? Before I get into that, let me first tell you about some of my past, so you can understand my stand regarding modesty. I've mentioned in other posts that I was sexually assaulted as a child for several years. What I didn't mention was that before I turned seven years old, a middle aged neighbor got me into pornography. Seeing the porn made me understand what my three abusers were doing to me. I was addicted to the filth just after I turned seven and I spent nearly five decades as a porn addict. A few years ago, through a miraculous blessing and some intense, hard work, I was freed of that addiction. Some of the reasons for being modest have everything to do with pornography. I have toned this down as much as I can, but it is important you read this information. First off, I'm going to tell you a few statistics regarding porn use. Among fundamentalist Christians (I would classify the LDS in this category), fully half of the men have a problem with pornography. More than 20% of the women also have a problem with pornography. Fundamentalist Christians are 91% more likely to look at porn. One in three referrals to LDS Social Services are for pornography addiction. More statistics: 66% of boys and 16% of girls look at porn every week. 35% of teen boys say they have viewed porn videos “too many times to count.” 68% of young adult men and 18% of young adult women look at porn every week. 2/3 of college age men and ½ of college age women say viewing porn is an acceptable way to express one's sexuality. 55% of married men and 25% of married women say they watch porn at least once a month. 90% of boys and 70% of girls reported accessing sexually explicit media on at least one occasion. (Covenant Eyes) Now I'll tell you about how women are portrayed in pornographic videos. There are basically three themes to the majority of these videos. First is the woman who finds a man, sometimes a passing stranger, a co-worker, the “good” man next door, irresistible and cannot control herself. In this video the man is taken advantage of with the woman forcing herself onto him. She is more than ready and practically frantic in her desire for sex, and is willing to do any imaginable perversion. Second is the “unwilling” woman, who is taken advantage of by a man; sometimes a stranger, the guy in the bar, her boss, the doctor and basically raped. However, during the process of being raped, she realizes that she actually likes being sexually assaulted and ends up participating whole heartedly. Third, the majority, are those with violence. The woman is always the unwilling victim and is often bound and gagged, beaten, raped, and forced into doing any imaginable perversion. 88% of scenes in porn videos include sexual aggression. The reason this is important to understand is that this is how men involved in pornography are conditioned to think. Studies show that men who regularly look at pornography in as little as two weeks exposure begin to look at women as objects. They begin to minimize and even trivialize rape. With continued exposure, they don't even consider it a crime. In their eyes, it isn't rape; the women actually want to be sexually assaulted. Additionally, after minimal regular exposure, these men consider adultery to be normal and desirable. The longer and deeper a man delves into porn, the more his thinking processes degrades. When a man becomes addicted, his thinking process becomes perverted. To call the mind of a porn addict a cesspool would be insulting cesspools. Not only is rape trivialized, the addict fantasizes about committing rape. Women who fit what I term as “the porn profile” are the objects of his fantasies. He thinks about kidnapping women and using them, thinking that they will actually enjoy his attentions. The addict thinks that any woman who fits the profile just might want to have sex with him. The longer he is into porn, the more twisted his thinking becomes. This is only a very toned down version of how the addict thinks. Now comes the relationship between porn and modesty. The women who fit the porn profile are those whose dress reveals their figure. Even if they are fully covered, if their clothes hug their body revealing the outline of their figure, this is enough to fit the profile. The only thing that is necessary is for the female to have somewhat attractive enough figure; age doesn't matter until their body begins to age and sag. The problem is that almost no women realize that the clothes they wear put them into the “porn profile” category. The fashion industry designs women's clothing to form to and reveal the figure. They use stretch fabrics and cuts that reveal the body rather than conceal. Fabrics like stretch jersey knit are a favorite for tops. They make the woman look “feminine.” The neck lines are usually low and reveal a lot of skin. All they have to do to give a show is bend over. The skirts, dresses and pants are often cut so that they mold to and hug the midriff, buttocks and legs. Now, let me ask you a question. Do you want some guy fantasizing about raping you or your fourteen year old daughter? Do you want some guy, some old pervert, doing everything he can to get an eyeful? Do you want him hoping that you or your daughter will bend over and show some cleavage? This is what they are thinking! The guy heavy into porn doesn't look at your face. He checks out your chest, your waist, legs and buttocks; once he's done that, he will then look at your face to see if it agrees with his assessment of your body. When I was an addict, the only woman who didn't get my attention was the one who dressed in loose fitting, modest clothing that covered everything and revealed nothing. All the rest of them were fair game! I've talked with other addicts and they say the exact same thing. If you dress according to church standards, the man that is into pornography will ignore you. I am one of the fortunate few who have fully recovered from porn addiction. I'm not “in recovery;” I'm fully recovered. The stuff does not tempt me and I actually become sick at the thought of the filth. This is why I feel so strongly about modesty. If you or someone you know is addicted, get help. It will be the single most difficult thing you've ever had to fight and overcome, but it can be done. Dress modestly!

So I don't give Pam a headache I’ll not relate how I really feel about these whining brats, but the story does have some comic relief. Apparently the irony of demanding "free college" is lost on the associate professor who gets paid to teach at one. An intellectual giant, eh? http://www.ksl.com/?sid=37340016&nid=148

Yes. There is a new little footpath of the female variety in the Backroads household.

Epidurals have a serious side effect -->> it's called teenagers.

The basic issue with the Bible is.... that it has a front and back cover. The contents are inspired by God, but man put that cover on it.

The reality is, however, that "charitable" and "shaming" are not mutually exclusive. Whereas I entirely agree that we shouldn't intentionally berate others who are merely struggling, even a simple suggestion that they hold on with faith (an entirely charitable and reasonable suggestion) may, indeed, cause them to feel shamed in some cases.

That's for the next president to handle. In the meantime, he's concerned only about his primary legacy -- importing compliant voters.

This is true, and to add to your comment, policies are also based on revelation. As circumstances change, so also those policies could change. But we are bound by these policies and to support our leaders as prophets, seers and revelators. Christ gave us the guiding principle Matt 10 [35] For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. [36] And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. [37] He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. [38] And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. And this IS revelation.

I just read this comment on facebook. This seems like a prudent idea. Ok, all my friends pay attention to what I am saying. THIS IS IMPORTANT. Share this as well. Russia lost a plane last week and Paris was attacked today. It is fair to assume we are next. All of America is going to be one large soft target on Black Friday. We are going to congregate in large masses in areas that cannot be protected properly. I understand it is a big day to save money but please consider avoiding crowds that day. I hope I am wrong but I spent 2 years working on a Masters of Criminal Justice from Boston University and it makes the most tactical sense for terrorists. It would disrupt our capitalist economy at its most important time of year. If you go out that day keep your eyes open and if you see anything even remotely out of the ordinary report it. God bless you all and I pray for all our safety and those in Paris on this most horrible of nights.

The scriptures have God the Father as the Father of all spirits: Hebrews 12:9--King James Version (KJV)9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? If you believe there is a God, other than God the Father, which Fathers spirits--could you reveal Him to us? That places all spirits--including Christ's spirit, satan, and mankind's spirit--having the same Father--and they His offspring: Acts 17:29---King James Version (KJV)29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

While this is good advice, you'll still end up with debt using this method if you are a 'young person' attending college, assuming you can even get a job. Despite what I constantly hear, jobs for young people are not forth coming, and the ones that are(if you can get one)..., can't pay for college. Without college it is a reasonable way to get out of debt. assuming someone gets $4000 a month, lives with their parents rent and food free it would take 3 months to pay off the debt.

Alright, well there was a lot of emotion in this post so I'll try to approach this from a more sensitive standpoint. You are exactly right. It is our CHOICE to choose whether or not we dress modestly or immodestly. This choice is relevant to our obedience to the law of chastity. We have a choice whether or not to choose that dress for a night out and put our garments aside "for just one night" for that cute dress. We also have a choice whether or not we choose to read our scriptures every night, to pray, to go to church every Sunday, to be righteous temple recommend holders, to pay our tithing, and so much more. That is the beauty of being on this Earth. We have agency to choose what type of son/daughter of God we will be. There will ALWAYS be members that choose "the wrong". But this cannot have any bearing on our own testimony of these principles and how they apply to our lives. There will ALWAYS be members who are displayed in society as the hypocrite "mormon". Those are the ones who get the media's attention, not the righteous members. The judgment of God is the only one who gets to decide how this individual's choice to be obedient to His commandments will affect this eternal life. Beyond that is out of range of our own judgment. Whether or not you think "Betty's" choice to wear an immodest dress that does not suit the guidelines of garments is just not of importance to your salvation. If this affects your testimony of the principle, then that is a whole different scenario. We must choose how WE will live these principles and not focus so much on how everyone else is choosing to live them. They have their own agency, as you have stated, and will decide however they want. It is more important that we decide how we will live them, and how Christ-like we will be towards those who do not follow the principles that we follow. None of us are perfect. No one will ever be a perfect Saint here on Earth. We all will fall short in many aspects (including modesty). We all have our own subjective view on what is modest and what is not (I don't want to go find the previous post about this, but there was plenty of disagreement of whether the "maxi-dress" skirts are considered modest or not). These decisions are between us and The Lord. I may feel modest in a dress that sits above my knee but is much longer than my garments, where you may not feel the same. There are still clear guidelines of what modesty is, but how we choose to apply them to ourselves is where I think this feeling of "mixed messages" is coming from. We must be concerned for our fellow members, but only as Christ would be. There will always be members who are not following every commandment, but we must love them anyway and not put so much thought into why they chose to wear that one outfit. We'll go crazy trying to figure out why some people follow the principle of modesty in one way and why someone else follows it in a different way.

Boy, Mormons sure like to toss out the "judgment" word. Especially while in the act of judging others. Have I gone to these women and scolded them? But I guess expressing my opinion (what so many Mormons like to call "judgment") that - yes - those outfits are immodest is verboten in Mormonland. As is my confusion at the inconsistent and hypocritical messages sent. No wonder people outside the church roll their eyes. We're supposed to be modest. Except for when we want to make money? Except for when we just feel like? Tell me what are the REAL rules on modesty? And why are you allowed the "judgment" that dressing immodestly is perfectly okay but anyone who disagrees with you is not allowed to make that "judgment"? I have at least half a dozen personal friends in the entertainment industry - for decades - who have never worn outfits...costumes...whatever you want to call them...that would be considered immodest or incompatible with garment wearing. So it IS possible. Just as I knew untold numbers of Orthodox Jews who did the same. It's a CHOICE. Dressing modestly is a choice. Dressing immodestly is a choice. No one is forced either way. But I am not allowed to scratch my head over the mixed message sent. It comes across clearly that the REAL teaching is that we dress modestly and wear our garments except for when we don't want to. No showering, swimming or intimacy need be involved. Or is it just when it involves money, for that is the justification being given here. I am going to be homeless in a few weeks if I don't find a way to increase my income. Pot is legal here in Oregon and there's a crap-ton of money to be made in that industry. Soooo....that would be cool for me to sell pot, right? Or with just a bit of training, I could become a pot "mixologist" and make a cool $90,000 a year. Heck, I could even make more just trimming the plants than working where I work now. Because it would be my JOB and that's a free pass. Or if I wanted to become a stripper. They make good money and I really need the income. And it's a JOB, right? Or...as Folk Prophet hinted at in his post....maybe it's dependent on the time involved. Like if I were a model and I only modeled lingerie part time instead of full-time, that would be cool with the "rules". Or if I worked only part-time in the pot industry. Yeah...I just have to figure out what the time limit is that's allowed by the church and then it's all good. And I wasn't talking about any of those other situations you listed. So nice of you to treat me like a moron. It was this kind of crap on message boards that was a real turn-off when investigating the church. It's still a big turn-off. And still....no one has ever addressed the mixed message. Anyone can use any reason at any time not to dress modestly...not to wear their garments....and it's okay. ALWAYS. For ANY reason. That is the reality. No one is willing to address things like why it's okay for a young, married, endowed woman to post endless photos on FaceBook of herself in various states of undress and partial nudity. That wouldn't be considered modest by anyone. How that aligns with what we are taught in the temple about wearing our garments. Oh yeah...right...I can't n think about that much less ask about it. It's "judging". There are people who have a stroke over the thought of someone not wearing their garments to bed at night, but if someone wants to leave their garments at home because they want to go out in that dress that plunges down to there and slit up to here to make sure they get noticed...well...that's perfectly okay. Nope, can't have a discussion about the dissonance. That would be "judging". You know...one of the reasons I was drawn to the church was because the member who first shared their testimony and beliefs with me did it in a way very different from any other Christian addressed me as a Jew. There was no 'you're bad, you're wrong, you're going to hell". But - wow - once you're a member, the attacks never end. No matter what side of an issue you are on, there's guaranteed to be members to tell you how wrong and bad you are. But...noooo....THEY aren't the ones judging. People can walk down the street naked for all I care. (This is Portland. This happens). But I do care about trying to figure out the logic behind all of this. Or I did. Because there really isn't an answer other than the Mormons top the list of religions whose members pick and choose what "rules" they follow. So the next time I pass on buying that cute dress because....whoopsie...it's backless....I won't have to pass on it. Because it's okay to be modest or not. And it's okay to wear your garments or not. Whatever floats your boat, right?

First, I'm so happy for you that you've found your way back. Keep praying and fasting. Satan will try to use this to discourage you; don't let him. The Lord has all power, knows what you need, and is merciful and generous beyond imagining. If you have to work for a year to pay off this debt and then go on your mission, do it! Don't let the length of the obligation keep you from going. It's possible that acting like that, in faith, will open doors for you - there is great power in taking the first step. Even if it takes longer than you hope, certainly your faith will increase for the effort. Other thoughts: I don't know the technicalities of how these things work, but aren't there entities out there which help arrange for payments for this sort of thing, as a go-between, despite what the collection agency want? (Maybe someone else here understands how that works - there are commercials for such things all the time, but I don't now if they're legit or just make things worse.) Can things like bankruptcy court arrange for payments rather than a lump sum? If you're not already working and saving toward paying off that debt, start - the sooner the better. Be humble and accept help. Anyone who helps you to serve a mission will be blessed for their efforts. https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/mark/9.23?lang=eng#22 FWIW.

Every time I hear about students demand that the 1% pay for everyone's college, I think,"can we start with math."

While I can't really argue that something thinning out such parasites would be a good thing, a war tends to have the opposite effect. Your best blood goes to war then you're left with a much higher concentration of useless moronic weenies to run things and teach the next generation. Vietnam is kind of how we got to where we are now. We sent the good people to die and left the useless to get deferments and become the college professors that are causing these idiots. And yes, I became a crotchety old man a couple of years ago.

A former neighbor of mine just left for Paris 2 days ago with her daughter for a vacation. I've heard that she is safe. But sure puts a damper on this vacation they planned so long for.

I particularly liked when he pointed out that the top 1%'s entire fortune would not be enough to pay off the current student loan debt out there.

Not to defend these particular outfits (the one on the right isn't bad...the one on the left is a bit much) but it's not exactly fair to say that this is what they wear for their jobs as if wearing things like this is a full time thing. Performing is a relatively small part of their job, and these are costumes for the performance. Most of the time they are not wearing this sort of thing for their jobs. There are, certainly, appropriate activities where the wearing of what might be immodest normally is appropriate. Sports comes to mind -- particularly swimming. But I digress... In fact, I'm not, specifically justifying this particular activity (ballroom dancing) as to that. But the general point, I believe remains. BYU has, perhaps, the largest ballroom dance program in the nation. They have standards for the costumes. Both of these costumes would break those rules, (I find that disappointing and wish they would keep similar standards even for professional ballroom shows) but the costumes that are allowed at BYU for their competitions are still way beyond what would be acceptable for a church dance or the like, and certainly could not be worn with garments. The BYU standards, in my opinion, are appropriate for the activity. But the "modesty" is relative to the activity in some ways some times.

This is something about the church (or its members) that makes absolutely no sense to me. We dress modestly/wear our garments except if we want to take a job where dressing immodestly is part of the job?? I guess that means if we want to take a job that requires us to...oh...I don't know...drink...smoke...do drugs...have sex (I hear being a sexual surrogate pays pretty darn good)....then it's all hunky-dory because, hey, it's just part of my job, right? Orthodox Jewish women dress modestly. They wouldn't dream of dressing immodestly just to make a buck or two.

And you get your "facts" from where, exactly? A government official was just explaining on CNN why they have changed their tactics to just exactly the kinds of attacks that have gone on in France. They require no expensive, long-term sophisticated planning. Coordinated planning, yes. But no hijacking of planes, etc. Just walk into a "safe" place where people gather. You just need a few people to go into crowded, easily accessible venues with guns and can quickly murder dozens, if not hundreds of people. It is a variation on the suicide bomber. These murderers had no intention of escaping, hence their suicide belts. These kinds of attacks are much harder to track and prevent than 9/11 style attacks. These kinds of attacks are going to occur with more and more frequency. I have the privilege in the past of speaking with Israeli and American experts in terrorism. Most people have no clue what is going on, what has gone on, and how many attacks have actually been thwarted. But we can never stop them all and it's just going to get worse, not better.

I think you are very correct.

Just a few technical points in relation to these comments: 1. https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/2.26?lang=eng#25 2. The OP included rape in the conversation. 3. At least one of us has said "Men and women, you should be modest." (Another point about the victims of human trafficking has already been made.) I suspect we all mostly agree and we're using different words and perspectives to say similar things, but our perspectives are so different that we're seeing past each other.

(2 of 2) Yet no one has said anything even remotely approaching this. This is an absolute mischaracterization of what has been said, which is, "Women, you should be modest." Hold it. Aren't you the one talking about porn actresses? I would not say that's "nothing". I don't understand. Did anyone suggest it was not their choice? No one except, perhaps, you. And it is an evil choice. That is the point. Shame on them for choosing immodesty. Ah. So, if I choose to run around stark naked, that is simply a choice between God and me, and you have no right to say anything about it, or even to tell your children that Brother Vort really should put on some pants (or at least underwear) before going on a walk. Right? This is simply nonsense, Becca. If a woman freely chooses to dress provocatively with the intent of tittilating men, you say that it is not at all her fault that men are tittilated; it's all on the men. Therefore, we need not teach our daughters modesty, because they can run around stark naked and the men simply shouldn't get excited. This is a fantasy land, and a truly ugly one. Real people (at least healthy people) would never act in such a manner. Just as there will always be murderers. That doesn't mean we should quit teaching against murder. So, BeccaKirstyn: Do we teach our daughters about modesty, or do we not? If so, what are you complaining about? If not, why not?

(1 of 2) When I read responses like the following, I despair. When even well-intentioned and honest people ignore the root of the problem and instead parrot the dishonest, agenda-driven axe-grinding of the feminists and other special-interest groups, I don't know that any hope is left. Of course it is not the entire solution. But of course it is an important part of the solution. And one of the very first steps to changing how we view each other is learning to be modest in dress, in action, and in thought. Yes, of course she is. So is the girl who molests her little brother. So is the girl who stabs her boyfriend to death because she thought he was looking at another girl. So is the girl who unleashes vile personal attacks on the new girl in class just for the pure joy of watching her suffer. All of these are daughters of God. So what? That fact alone means nothing. This is absurd. It is exactly like saying, "That professional MMA fighter does not deserve to be punched in the face just because he put on the gloves and entered the octagon." The wonan in porn is prostituting herself. She wants to be viewed as a "sexualized object". By what possible logic do you blame men for viewing her exactly as she wants to be viewed? The blame for the porn actress's whorish actions lie exactly on her. Blaming her customers is beyond ridiculous. You would never, ever accept such an argument if it went the other direction. No one in this conversation has said anything about rape. It was never even suggested. Why would you suddenly insert such a bizarre, seemingly off-topic rant? Do you also believe that bacon should be advertised as being "asbestos-free"? Just in case, you know, anyone was wondering.

By the way folks, ISIS is attacking the US often these days too. Our police train to engage immediately, not cordon off and wait for backup.

Doriette, please accept my deepest sympathy for you, and all who have loved ones in Paris, especially loved ones hurt or killed in these attacks. I am praying for all of you; having been denied peace in the world, may you have the Savior's peace.

Praying my daughter doesn't get her mission call to Europe!

Two important things to look at here that the extremely biased and prejudiced NPR would never reveal, is that almost all of the shootings and killings you are hearing about there in their "statistics" are not legally owned, registered guns. They are illegal guns, in use by people who are PROHIBITED by federal law from owning guns. So the truth that you miss here is that we citizens who CHOOSE to carry a gun can and should be able to do so to defend ourselves and our families from those PROHIBITED persons who have guns, because none of the governmental agencies here can nor will do that, not even by taking the guns away from those prohibiited persons. Lastly, in your first paragraph, you say that you would feel most safe in a place where NO GOOD GUYS have guns and ONLY THE BAD GUYS have guns. Does that not sound as perverse to you as it does to me? dc

Wow. Old crotchety people are really whiny. Especially about younger generations ;P

NOTE: I am not by any means denying that we have a big problem of women dressing, speaking, and behaving immodestly. I am not denying that this is driven by various worldly factors. I am denying that this is strictly a problem of the way women dress, speak, and behave; and that it can be solved by addressing only that side of things. If you only teach the young men that the young women ought to dress modestly, you're teaching them that their reactions to what girls wear aren't their fault cuz the girls never shoulda been wearing that in the first place. The prevalence of a problem does not, in my opinion, seem relevant. It is possible for men to be immodest, and we should teach everyone that modesty is the standard for all of us, regardless of gender. Immodesty includes appearance, speech, and behavior. Immodesty includes watching that porn made for men. Immodesty includes the ogling of men and women. Immodesty includes the tight muscle shirt intended to attract / impress the girls (even if the girls' biological reaction isn't always as strong as the male biological reaction), as well as whatever skimpy outfit the girl is wearing. I object to addressing the issue one-sided because that's part of our problem. Even the dictionary (google's in this case) contributes to the wrong opinion that only women can be modest (and therefore immodest)... Their definition of modest: A man can't dress or behave so as to avoid (or encourage, if we reverse this) impropriety or indecency, especially to avoid (or encourage...) attracting sexual attention? They certainly can. Interestingly, "immodest" is defined as "lacking humility or decency." - men (and women) can certainly be guilty of that, as well as the reverse of modest, whatever the word is for that. As I mentioned previously, I would hope that long before we get anywhere near porn, we're teaching about the sacred nature of the human body, about the importance of all of us dressing, speaking, and behaving toward ourselves and others in a way appropriate to that sacredness (and that we're not teaching that modesty is just the way women dress).

I was watching an interview with the girl who is supposedly the leader in this whole march thing. I was laughing so hard at the end. She was a total dip.

One good thing about the LDS religion is that they emphasize modesty without pushing to the extreme of frumpiness. Most LDS women dress in a very classy manner from what I have seen. When a Baptist preacher teaches on modesty it seems guaranteed that many of the ladies will take to wearing denim jumpers and turtlenecks. Ugh!!! My girls frequent LDS owned clothing stores online because they are modest and pretty.

Now, see, college is a place for dumbness like this. It's where little sheltered kiddos get their first taste of coming out from under their mamma's aprons, and get to do some things on their own. It's where they get their first taste of how utterly idiotic some of the crap they believe truly is. Because they say it out loud, and then get smacked upside the head with the tree of sarcastic smarter people who shame the idiocy out of (most of) them. I remember it in my college days. The drunk idiot standing in a pile of empty beer bottles failing to score with his lady interest about how interested in the environment he was. The angry students protesting the lack of parking, the lack of places to study at the library, the cost of tuition, the unfairness of blood for oil. The girl who took off her clothes and read poetry on the waterfall statue thing until she got arrested. The asinine letters to the editor. All of them, a rough stone rolling down the hill, getting the stupid knocked off of them and some smarts beaten into them through life experiences. Except in this case - where the idiots got mad enough that the university started firing the smart people for not catering to their bawling moronity with the proper sensitivity. With this post, I hereby begin my years as crotchety old man. We need another VietNam to thin out the ranks of these weenies. (No, I don't really mean that, but from what I hear, it's a crotchety old man thing to say, and I want to start strong, being only in my mid-40's).

I don't have an issue with yoga pants, if you participate in yoga or similar activities body position is very important in doing the exercise correctly. Therefore it is necessary to wear clothing that shows where your body positions are at

With the example I gave in response #15 (the one just before yours) my pointing out the weakness of a young man not attending church resulted in a young man returning to activity and eventually a temple marriage. And yes I did feel good and more charity towards him - and still do.

I believe in making judgments - I believe it is impossible to employ any measure of agency and not make judgments. It seem to me the problem in making judgments is using them to categorize others when in reality our judgments are our standards. It seems to me that we are not really categorizing others but rather ourselves. For example when someone is sure someone else is dressed immodestly - they are actually saying something as much or more so about themselves than they are about others. In other words they are vocalizing the standards by which they want to be judged or others make judgments of them and understand when they are displaying their immodesty. I have posted in another thread about my personal covenant concerning Sabbath dress. I always wear a white shirt - this I do by personal covenant. I hold my covenants sacred. However, once while traveling for work I encountered a young man that was a return missionary that had become inactive (10 years since attending) with his personal covenants. As we conversed - he expressed a desire to "come" back. I invited him to attend Church with me on Sunday. It was a ward I had attended before - and always in my suit, white shirt and tie. But this young man told me he had nothing appropriate to wear to Church. I challenged this young man that his attendance at church at this point of his life was far more important that wearing something he knew to be appropriate. All he had was a tee shirt and levies - so I told him I would pick him up and I would wear a tee shirt and levies and that we would go together. Now someone seeing me at church that Sunday might think that I had dishonored my personal covenant - but the reality - at least as far as I am concerned, my covenant was untainted. But at the same time I did learn a very important lesson. Whenever I see someone at church wearing a tee shirt and levies - I make a great effort to make sure they feel welcome and know that I am so glad that they came to church. Sometimes those struggling with covenants are more in need of love and fellowship than criticism.

I just don't really understand how acknowledging someone who is dressed immodestly is something worth even discussing. If it is someone in your ward, and you are not the mother, father, young women's/young men's leader, or bishop of that individual, then I do not believe it is within our judgment to say anything to the individual or even contemplate their lifestyle choices within ourselves. Can we contemplate the principle of modesty and how we are following it/not following it? Absolutely. But how is this individual's choice to dress immodestly pertinent to our salvation? It's not. What is pertinent to our salvation is to be loving and friendly to this individual. What is pertinent to the bishop's salvation, the mother and father's salvation, is to teach the correct principles to their son or daughter. What is pertinent to that individual's salvation is how they choose to follow that principle.

Maybe you should watch a different documentary. I personally know different.

I am reminded of something said by Winston Churchill when he was told that by the year 2000 women would rule the world. His answer was - Still? As the Chruch continues to grow and as members also continue to grow - I suspect that revelation in families and head of family to become more apparent and common. As I understand the primary councle is that of a man and a womam that have been sealed - all other quorums and councles are created to support the primary councle of family.