Leaderboard

The Lord said he would sift his church... We saw this with the whole Prop 8 and rainbow movements... Now we are seeing it hit the other side of the political scale, with the face-masks and shut down mandates. In the end we will see who is on the Lord's side and who thinks the leaders have fallen because they disagree with them...

Here is the thought Elder Renlund provided that is irritating "thought leaders" and those that have succumbed to these thoughts leaders: The metaphor is a brilliant metaphor relating sickness (virus) to spiritual sickness, and how we should avoid anything in our lives that might threaten the eternal reward of our family. Seems to be a very appropriate analogy in light of scripture. And yet, this section is full of people irritated because -- the guilty take a truth to be hard. My favorite comment is this, "I doubt that this was an inspired comment and hope you’ll reconsider what a damaging impact this sort of stigmatizing and divisive sentiment has to our congregations." First, it's funny that someone thinks they are able to say what is inspired and isn't when it was "personal" revelation to Elder Renlund, which he is sharing. The Lord doesn't work horizontally with revelation or inspiration, so the pride involved in this sentiment is even more sad. Truth only impacts a congregation harmfully if the congregation is prideful and doesn't want to accept truth. It really becomes tiring reading comments from people who want to twist words an apostle or prophet will say to further their justification for their decisions.

Our stake is near Ogden, but we didn't hear anything about it. I would have loved to listen, and know many of my youth would have benefited as well. Bro. Wilcox is very down to earth, and also a no BS type of guy...very plain, simple, and upfront, and I like that about him.

The brethren vary in race, background, culture, personality, work vs church experience, family, etc... What makes them the same is their devotion to the Lord. They are one with each other - as a united quorum should be.

The amusing thing is, that wing of the Church had assumed that since Elder Renlund had a small family, a lawyer wife, and frequently cited to his experience in Africa—that he would be as libertine as they themselves are. And yet, he clearly isn’t. It’s a useful lesson. We all get tempted to assume that this GA or that is “one of us” on any given social, political, or theological controversy; but really, the question is whether we are one of them.

We as members of the church (and Christians in general) are going to be asked to do some hard things in the future before the Lord's second coming. If you can't do something as simple as home teaching, daily scripture study, personal prayer, or wearing a mask, then how can you possibly expect to follow through on the hard things coming? The sifting is already taking place. In our ward we have unfortunately lost three to four "active" families over the course of the pandemic. Two of them have anywhere from 3 to 6 young children in the household. They are not coming back. They have each given a different excuse, but they all boil down to either laziness and/or a lack of faith. If people stop practicing their religion over covid-19, just imagine how many families and individuals would leave if we were told to stop watching sports on Sunday, or tithing was to increase to 12-15%, or that plural marriage was to return. The Prophet is a Prophet or he is not...folks need to get on board with a lighted lamp and oil in their vessels, because the ship is stetting sail, and picking and choosing what you think is inspired and what is not will cause you to miss the boat.

I in no way see how the remark is stigmatizing or divisive to congregations, other than it is encouraging repentance. We are all guilty of sin...but hopefully trying to become better. It is those who have their secret sins that they enjoy to indulge in that are put off by this remark. One of the adversary's best lies about sin is that is really affects no one. "Watching pornography doesn't really hurt my family. As long as no one knows about it everything will stay the same." The truth of the matter is that even if no one discovers your dirty habit, it is offensive to the spirit, and the spirit will not be present in your home at the level that it could be otherwise. Evil speaking of the Lord's anointed has the same effect. Children, and especially young children, can feel this difference in the presence of the Holy Ghost. Why wouldn't we want our homes to be a place where the spirit may dwell, and to be a shelter for them from the outside world? Why shouldn't we do all that we can to throw out sin and to spiritually renovate our homes? If you preach the right things and look good on the outside, but are filthy within, then, as the Savior said, you are no different than a whited sepulchre that is filled with dead men's bones. If you say prayers with your kids at night, but quickly tuck them into bed so you can start binge watching game of thrones (or any other trashy form of disgusting filth) then you are nothing but a hypocrite who will regret your actions in the future, and could unknowingly or unintentionally start your children down a path that will harm them spiritually. Let us give our children the best chance of success we can, and let our light so shine. Our homes should be a place where anyone who enters can feel the presence of the spirit Lastly, if folks are just upset because he made an analogy to mask wearing then they need to grow up. I am not a fan of mask wearing myself...the difference they make is small. But I do it because I have been asked to. Some may call me a sheep, but I simply trust my church leaders.

This was the link: http://mywebcast.churchofjesuschrist.org/broadcast But it was a broadcast Zoom meeting. So, it's essentially dormant now. I just took a closer look at the email that announced this. It may have been intended for this local audience only. Since it was a general auxilliary officer, I thought it was at least nationwide. But that may not have been so. When I click on the link now, it says "Ogden West YW/YM instruction." And as I recall, the young woman who gave the closing prayer was announced as being from an Odgen ward. I'll try to repeat all I can remember from the fireside. (I warn that I was not listening as intently as I otherwise would have. I was busy with my calling at the time and only half listening.) ** Announcement: Brother Wilcox will speak at a virtual "For the Strength of Youth" fireside on Sunday, January 17 at 7pm.All Youth and Parents are invited to attend. ** BEGIN SPEECH I believe many of you are thinking that this is probably the worst time to be alive. This is the worst time to be going off to college and start your life as an adult. This is the worst time to be on a mission. I'd argue that this is the best time to be alive. This is the best time to start your life as an adult. This is the best time to go on a mission. It is especially the best time to go on a mission. Why? Because the world is the Titanic and the Church is the lifeboat. The Titanic was supposed to be the best, the strongest, the most luxurious ship ever built. New technology was applied to ensure that this ship was unsinkable. Everyone thought that this was the pinnacle of mankind's achievement (heh-heh). In fact, many boasted, "God, Himself, could not sink this boat." (At this point I - Carb - was drawing a parallel to the Tower of Babel). Does this sound familiar? We have the strongest economy ever. The stock market is higher than it's ever been. Our military is the most powerful on Earth. NOTHING can sink this nation. God, Himself, could not stop this economy. Until the tiniest creature on earth (a virus) stopped the entire world. We all know that the ship hit an iceberg because of lack of care on the part of the Captain. He was too confident in dangerous waters. But what happened afterwards was an even greater tragedy than it needed to be because the passengers themselves were too confident in dangerous waters. After the collision, and after assessments were made, the captain gave the announcement for the passengers to get into the lifeboats because the ship was sinking. The crew ushered passengers as best they could and tried their best to encourage them. And if you only saw the movie, you'd think that the crew was being lazy or didn't do their job. But the research I've done on this story (he held up a stack of papers about 100 pages long) the crew did their job. First hand accounts say that the crew were almost in panic mode. But the passengers were laughing at the idea of getting on the lifeboats when the ship was unsinkable. They thought it was like a fire drill. "Oh, don't worry, it's just a drill" they'd tell one another. But the crew was adamant and did all they could to convince them it was not a drill. Some people got on. Others refused and even MOCKED those who were getting on the lifeboats (Great and Spacious Building, anyone?). That is why lifeboats were going down half-full. Not because of the crew's incompetence, but because the passengers simply didn't take the threat seriously. Then the ship began to tilt. Then there was the chaos that you saw in the movie. This is the best time to be a missionary because there are many passengers out there who are looking for the lifeboat. Nothing can save this world, but God, Himself. We are the crew trying to usher them into the lifeboats. And only something so dire as a pandemic is as clear as the boat tilting. So, go about gathering Israel and ushering them into the lifeboats. That's our job. We're the crew. -- I remember there was more to the conclusion portion. But I honestly can't remember what he said.

I fail to see anything wrong with his metaphor. How is it damaging to congregations?

Yes and no. Think of the first time the three witnesses were praying and how one individual was preventing the experience -- for them all -- to happen. And yet, no, because God doesn't withhold revelation from me due to another person's choices. Think about the temple prayer and one statement in the prayer regarding "feelings."

https://www.facebook.com/russell.m.nelson/posts/3650727088328034

I don't know how many of you caught the youth fireside last night. Brother Brad Wilcox (BYU Religion Professor and Counselor in the Young Men's General Presidency) was the featured speaker. I gave the analogy that the world is the Titanic and the Church is the lifeboat. The details he gave from the research he did on the Titanic was enlightening. I had to have a special meeting with my family to discuss it. I told them that I had never in my many years on this earth heard anything so clear, blunt, & explicit from Church Headquarters that basically said, "This is it, folks." I was reminded of the gravest warning I've heard in my lifetime: Ezra Taft Benson's speech "Awaken to our awful situation." Sadly, I can't seem to find it on Youtube in its unedited, unimbelished form. For those of you who remember that... How does it feel to be under martial law in the US?

You’re not supposed to talk about good and evil. In certain circles of the Church, there is no right and wrong—only the church’s money, and GAs who aren’t woke enough to use it the way it should be used.

I'm not understanding what the issue is. How is the analogy stigmatizing and divisive?

That seems fair enough. It shows were the true desires of the heart really are. Which really is kind of the whole point of this existence anyways. Of course one can repent and change such desires, but that does not seem to happen that often.

In my youth I spent 40 days in training of desert survival. After a week I would eat all kinds of things but my favorite was ant larvae and finding an ant hill was such happiness. But ever since the completion of the survival training I have not been the least bit keen to eat ants. This experience has caused me to ponder when Jesus talked about hunger and thrust for righteousness. When we get hungry enough we will love and appreciate whatever the L-rd provides to receive it with thanks giving. But if we are not very hungry we tend to be very picky. The Traveler

Thank you for the summary. Ugh. For a slightly more hopeful outlook, I go to Elder Christofferson: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2020/10/22christofferson But of course, looming over it all, is the 25 year old Proclamation on the Family:

I think it was Elder Renlund that recently got called many things, including a false prophet and other items for his stating that he was acting as an apostle of the Lord in asking us to wear masks. He was asking us to show our charity for others as well as express our concerns and to care for ourselves and those around us. Because of this wise counsel, counsel which I may add I think was actually given MANY MONTHS PRIOR by the Prophet, the apostle was called MANY things by Members of the Church. Bringing up the Virus that has plagued so many in our nation bringing so much death and devastation in his analogy probably annoys and burns many of the anti-maskers and science deniers that worship Trump and his sycophants but claim to be members of the Church. They have been angry (and to give one a slight indication of their anger, many also supported the actions of the Far Right at the Capital...another item which the General Authorities of the Church have recommended are not in our best interest) at the Apostle ever since and are rather rabidly against him. Ironically, these same actors have turned off some of my own family to the Church in recent times. Even more ironic as it seems the actions of the local church leaders in their support of their new Idol have tuned out the suggestions of the actual leaders of the Lord (something I am trying VERY HARD with those of my family who have had the local leaders do some rather evil things to convince that the upper leadership of the church thinks differently than what their local leaders enacted). I see a LOT of this type of sentiment among the members today though. In our own ward they have restarted a few things at the church building but require those who go to wear a mask and social distance. There are up to a quarter of the active membership in our own area which refuse to go to these items because a mask is required. They feel requiring such is trampling upon their rights of freedom of religion (which logic rather puzzles me considering the earlier statements from the General Authorities regarding wearing masks) and freedom of choice. I think even MORE ironically, this is going to hurt missionary work in the future. Those who lean more conservative generally (not always, some will listen) are more set in their ways and are harder for missionaries to talk to or convert. The younger and more liberal individuals tend to be more open minded and easier to contact...however...I've seen that a LOT of these who would be the key target for missionary work have seen the fruits of these members (by their fruits you shall know them?) and see how unchristian they are. Because of seeing this, they have been greatly turned off by our own members (though, to be fair, they see the same things happening with the Evangelicals as well). If you have seen people's reactions earlier this year and late last year towards statements made by the General Authorities regarding the pandemic and our being Christian and showing love and charity by wearing masks and social distancing, as well as comments made towards statements made by the Prophet regarding the election and other statements towards respecting our leaders of government and the processes thereof...you would have seen how angry many members became at our Church leaders. To think that their anger would suddenly subside would be more surprising than to see them remain angry. That said, these reactions have not made me happy at all, as they speak of a growing divide within the Church itself between what religion and Christianity suggests in how we should think and act, and how politics is dividing us in the US and in some parts of Europe.

You and I agree. There isn't anything wrong with the metaphor unless someone is wanting to stir the pot -- so to speak. It is a great metaphor.

For both yours and @Traveler's post... I am reminded of the saying... Hunger is the best sauce. I mean normally we get hungry and we eat no big deal... But if you have postpone it... and or have a larger then normal calorie spend.. your body lets you know... Food is Good.

Um, what is wrong with making eye contact? I would LOVE having a neighbor like that!

Indeed... For example I am personally willing to help other individuals. But if one of those individuals has a history of threatening violence against people trying to help, well my religion and faith would excuse me from going over. My responsibly to stay alive for my family trumps, rendering temporary aid to a stranger. When we move this up to the macro scale and immigration it still holds. We help those we can. But those that are threats we do not, because it is not safe to do so. We have an obligation to protect those already here... the only way to do that is to vet those incoming. And large numbers make the vetting more difficult . To have this concerned be so toxicly twisted into pure selfishness and mocking and scorning of the poor an needy shows the fundamental dishonesty of the statement. A variation of this dishonesty is to claim that we think ALL immigrants are criminals and dangerous. We are not saying that they ALL are. We are saying that the odds are that small subset of them are, and that subset needs to be dealt with for the protection of all.