Backed into a corner because of Church calling

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, Scott said:

In fact, I want to believe everything the Church has to offer.  I wish I did.  It would make things so much easier.   It's not that I don't want to believe.  I really do want to.  I just can't at this time.   That's all about me though and not about you guys.

I can understand that and I apologize for being a little overbearing perhaps.

I was in your shoes about ten years ago.  After coming home from a really difficult mission, I went through a period of several years where my testimony was a little weak.  At one point, I wanted to go become a Southern Baptist!  But I kept at it, kept praying, kept trying to figure things out.  And one day, years into my crisis, the floodgates of answers opened and did not close, my testimony experienced a rebirth, and I had a renaissance of sorts regarding my relationship to the Church.  This was right around the time my daughter was born.

Since that time (about five years ago), I have lost most of my doubts, I feel much more confident in my Church membership, and I certainly want to share my experience with people, that even when they think it is over with the Church (like I did at one point), it may not be and they can yet feel the type of spiritual renaissance I had!  

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, Scott said:

 

31 Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the Lord’s, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.

One more thing on this scripture - you should check out the corresponding Wikipedia article on Jephthah.  

The idea that the "sacrifice" meant perpetual virginity has gone back for centuries and is based off of the idea that the verse is mistranslated, that it should read, "Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the Lord's, or I will offer it up for a burnt offering."  This would explain the perpetual virginity - the daughter surely was the Lord's, but she was not offered as a burnt offering.

Such a situation would still fit the "rash vow" discussed in the Bible Dictionary.  If my parents told me they covenanted with the Lord that I would be a virgin forever, I think I would have been pretty upset!

Even if it is a burnt offering, I am unaware of any scripture or prophet saying the Lord approved of such an outcome.  Could it be, if Jephthah actually sacrificed the daughter, it is a sign that he was actually wicked, that he is an example of Israelites bringing in pagan belief into Judaism, and that the people were indeed very, very wicked?  Perhaps something would be lost in translation.  I am not seeing that the Lord actually approved of human sacrifice here, but there are certainly many ways to think about it.

Edited September 14, 2017 by DoctorLemon

[SilentOne]

If anybody wants to continue discussing the Jephthah issue, Carb started a new thread on that.

[Midwest LDS]

It's ok @ScottI don't mind genuine questions of faith, and you can't shake my testimony so no worries☺. As I said though I disagree with your analysis of the JST and of the scriptures in question, that doesn't matter. I'm not the one struggling with my faith, and this is important to you that's what matters about this particular question. That's why I encourage you to find Christ. In my experience, all doubts concerning our faith ultimately lead back to whether or not we truly know him. If we do we find answers to these questions. If we don't, nothing I could ever say to you will resolve them. Seek him brother. It will take time and effort but you can find  him again. Only a personal relationship with Him will resolve your doubts. My best wishes are with you my friend.

[Grunt]

3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

 Unfortunately:

1. You're absolutely aware of it.
2. You believe it makes you able to render judgment better than others.
3. You place much more emphasis on trivium than on the weightier matters of the gospel: Judgment, Mercy, & Faith.

Learning of facts and figures is one thing.  Understanding eternal principles is only found through the Spirit (Divine Intelligence) not through mortal intelligence.

Beware of pride.  Only through humility can the Lord help you.  Remember that the Lord created us in His image.  Don't attempt to create God in yours.

2

Thank you very much for this section and the bluntness of it.  It applies to me as well (skip the "smart" part) and has opened my eyes to things I need to just move past.

[Sunday21]

@Scott. Nice to have you here!

We are having a discussion about Old Testament events that occurred many centuries ago. Do you really want to base your eternity on your ability to understand some fragment of an obscure story? Picture yourself meeting Christ in the afterlife. You are sitting with your pile of scriptures and manuals and explaining to Christ that you left the church because of a collection of biblical fragments. He explains. 'No the common interpretation was wrong for these reasons.' You and Christ go through your 19 points...How are you going to feel?

 Your pride in your intellectual ability is leading you astray.  I received a very firm prompting to read every scripture on Humility recently. I am finding this to be an interesting exercise. 

[Guest Scott]

I am going to share some very personal information here, so anyone can take it for what it is worth.   I have never shared this information on a public forum.   This is very hard for me to post.

 I do not feel spiritual things.  I have never heard the “spirit whisper in the ear” or felt the “burning in the bosom”.  That does not mean that I don’t want to.  It isn’t for lack of trying.

 I have an extreme, but high functioning version of Asperger’s syndrome, which may explain some personality clicks.

 I can memorize things better than most people can and have about 40% of the Bible memorized.   I know all the characters in the Standard Works and have done much study on all the Church materials I can get my hands on.  

 I still remember lessons and songs being taught when I was a Sunbeam.   From primary remember word for word the song that says “the spirit whispers this to me and tells me it is true”.   I have heard much about the “burning in the bosom”.

 I have been trying for 40 years to feel these things, but it doesn’t seem that I can.  

 I understand this Excel equation perfectly:

 D = SQRT((A1^4*(COS(L1*PI()/180))^2+B1^4*(SIN(L1*PI()/180))^2)/(A1^2*(COS(L1*PI()/180))^2+B1^2*(SIN(L1*PI()/180))^2)+2*(Z1+G1)*SQRT(A1^2*(COS(L1*PI()/180))^2+B1^2*(SIN(L1*PI()/180))^2)+(Z1+G1)^2) 

In a fraction of a second I can tell you that 6,561 X 6,561 = 43,046,721, just by looking at the number patterns.

 If you tell me the town you live in or grew up in, if it has a weather station I can tell you off the top of my head the average temperature and records for each month.   I have the NWS database memorized.

 I can stand up and recite word for word the book of Genesis and a whole lot of other books from the Standard Works as well.

 All of that is not difficult for me.

 This is what is difficult for me:

 “The Spirit whispers this to me and tells me that it is true”.

 And this:

 8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.

9 But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong; therefore, you cannot write that which is sacred save it be given you from me.

 Which is preceded by this:

 7 Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.

 I have been trying for 40 years to feel or hear the spirit whisper or for a burning in the bosom.

 Here is what I have tried so far:

 I have tried to study the scriptures and all Church materials (even ones not of our Church).   I have tried to fulfill all church callings.    I have prayed for hours and hours, sometimes in tears all night.  This has lasted for 40 years.

 I have been scoutmaster for many years, Elders Quorum President, Executive Secretary through three Bishops, and have committed no grievous sins, other than perhaps unbelief. 

I help the ward members in every way I can.   I house the missionaries.  I offer my home and even vehicles to anyone in need.   I give whenever I can.   I try to be the best husband and father than I can.  I strive to be a friend to all.   I even once gave away ALL of my money in hopes of fulfilling Matthew 19:21.

 I don’t mention this to brag.   I only mention it to show that I have tried everything that I know of to feel the burning in the bosom or hear the whisper of the spirit.

 I have been longing to hear a whisper or feel a burning in the bosom, or to just feel anything spiritual ever since I was a little kid.

 My attempt to memorize the scriptures was yet another attempt in hopes of feeling the burning or hearing the whisper.

 It doesn’t work for me.   I don’t know if it is because my brain is different from most other people or something else.

 Just because I don’t feel spiritual things, doesn’t mean that I don’t want to.   I want to feel something spiritual.   I want to believe.

 I have tried everything I know how to do in order to believe.  So, how do you believe when you can’t feel anything spiritual or when at least you don’t know how to feel such things.  

 I thought that I could do it by memorizing the scriptures, studying all the Church material that I can, fulfilling my callings, and by service to others.  Everyone (at least as far as I know) thinks that I am the model church member and will soon be Bishop.

 Why would I put so much effort into it if I did not want to believe?   I want to believe it with all my heart.   It would make so much easier.

 I feel however that I am trying or have tried everything that I can.

 I have not asked God for a pillar of fire or a sign that it says we are not supposed to ask for.   I only want to feel, if only for a few seconds anything spiritual and anything like a burning in the bosom or a whisper from the Spirit.

 I have asked my wife what it feel like and she said it feels like a hug.   I know what a hug feels like, but I only feel a hug because she is there.

 So yes, I do earnestly seek an understanding of the scriptures and other spiritual things.   I mentioned the story of Jephthah not because I wanted to prove that the scriptures were flawed, but to point out the things that I struggle with.

 I have deep feelings.   I understand love, and I understand it when I am sad, happy, or frustrated.  I care deeply for others.

 After years of seeking, however, I have never felt anything spiritual and I so much want to feel something like a burning in the bosom or the whisper in the ear by the Spirit.   I have been praying for decades to feel these things.

 Since I don’t feel those things, I try and study (not disprove) as much as I can the scriptures because I understand things like logic, rather than the spiritual.   The problem is that even with sincere prayer I haven’t been able to reconcile with many of the scriptures.

 None of this is for lack of trying.   I have been sincerely seeking and praying for a way to feel Spiritual things.

 If you could not seem to feel those things, how else would you seek for a testimony?  For me it was to try and look at all the scriptures from a logical standpoint.   How would you do it.

 As said, I want more than anything to feel spiritual things rather than to only look at them analytically.  I promise that I have tried.

 Please don’t tell me that I simply have not been sincere enough in my prayers.  I promise you that I have.  Telling me that I’m just under the influence of the Devil or something isn’t helpful either. 

 I promise you that I have been very sincere and diligent in trying to believe.   When you don’t have the feelings that you guys speak of those, how do you do this?  

I feel trapped because I want to believe and since I don't know how to tell others that I don't.   I love my wife very much and going to Church makes her happy.   I love the ward members very much and want to serve them.   I was recently asked to be a counselor in the Bishopric.  I can't say yes and be truthful because I don't have a testimony and can't say so in the interview.   None of this means that I haven't sincerely tried or don't want to believe.      I don't think anyone would chose to go through this.

Quote

Your pride in your intellectual ability is leading you astray.

I would trade all of my intellectual ability if I could feel something spiritual even for a few seconds.

Edited September 15, 2017 by Scott

[lostinwater]

@Scott

You sound like a wonderful person.  I relate to so much of what you express.  Trying and trying and feeling nothing.  People telling you to ask, and then insisting that the only proof you've asked right or long enough is that you come to the same conclusion they came to.  And until you do, you should continue to ask.

All I'm going to say is that I believe that burying your doubts is unhealthy spiritually - just like burying feelings is unhealthy emotionally.  It might draw some applause, but in my view, that does not make it any better for you.

Eventually, I stopped.  I stopped insisting to myself that something that feels wrong is right just because someone else told me it was.  Stopped believing that I was bad and lacking faith for feeling things were wrong.  I stopped trying to explain away my feelings with mental acrobatics.    I know some people who can stay in the Church and come to a fragile truce with their doubts - I have a brother who is one.  I am not one of those people.  This makes me sad often.

This doesn't mean I have discarded my moral compass and replaced it with an 'anything goes, if it feels right, do it' attitude.  Though that's the common perception of many regarding people like me.  But it does mean that I don't shut off my conscience - ever.  I don't think God gave us doubts so that we could bury them and call it faith.  

I know there are so many like you in the Church.  I think your experience with having doubts trivialized or invalidated is extremely common - and horribly unhealthy, and a huge contributing factor for why so many people are leaving.  I find myself more and more calling what appears to be a spade a spade and accepting that nothing on earth is perfect. And I have to admit that my own opinions are likely to fall in the realm of imperfection as well.  But I try to keep them malleable.  And I think all God really needs is good heart, a malleable mind, and a bit of time.

One quote by a man named George MacDonald - the person CS Lewis credits with most of his inspiration has helped me a lot.

"Neither let thy cowardly conscience receive any word as light because another call it light, while it looks to thee dark.  Say either the thing is not what it seems, or God never said or did it.  But of all evils, to misinterpret what God does, and then say the thing, as interpreted, must be right because God does it, is of the devil.  Do not try to believe anything that affects thee as darkness.  Even if thou mistake and refuse something true thereby, thou wilt do less wrong to Christ by such a refusal than thou wouldst by accepting as His what thou canst see only as darkness."

-George MacDonald

Edited September 15, 2017 by lostinwater

[Midwest LDS]

You truly have my compassion brother. The trial you have carried is a heavy one, and it warms my heart to know both how hard you have tried and that your wife loves you so much. If I could hug you in person I would. Sometimes it's hard to communicate feelings in an online post, but I've never once doubted your sincerity in trying to fix something you don't know how too. I know the Spirirt frequently speaks to me in flashes of inspiritation as much as anything else, perhaps that is how He can speak to you too since you do not feel His presence in other ways. Keep trying brother. I don't know how, but I do know that the God who created the universe can find a way to make himself known to you. I also know He loves you for the effort you have put in of that I have no doubt. Just don't quit my friend. Enduring to the end is hard for everyone, but it sounds like it may especially be so for you. Just remember, even if you can no more than desire to believe, the Lord can work with that. Regardless @Scott know I have nothing but love and admiration for you and consider you a brother, not a lost or evil person. Thank you for willingly sharing your troubles with us.

Edited September 15, 2017 by Midwest LDS

[my two cents]

8 hours ago, Scott said:

I do not feel spiritual things.  I have never heard the “spirit whisper in the ear” or felt the “burning in the bosom”.

I only want to feel, if only for a few seconds anything spiritual and anything like a burning in the bosom or a whisper from the Spirit.

As said, I want more than anything to feel spiritual things rather than to only look at them analytically.

Sounds like you need to focus less on burnings and whispers and more on this from Galatians: 

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance

Also, start telling yourself that you *do* feel spiritual things. What you tell yourself matters so think (and speak) positive.

[Jane_Doe]

10 hours ago, Scott said:

I am going to share some very personal information here, so anyone can take it for what it is worth.   I have never shared this information on a public forum.   This is very hard for me to post.

 I do not feel spiritual things.  I have never heard the “spirit whisper in the ear” or felt the “burning in the bosom”.  That does not mean that I don’t want to.  It isn’t for lack of trying.

 I have an extreme, but high functioning version of Asperger’s syndrome, which may explain some personality clicks.

Hey I'm an LDS Aspie too!  Welcome to the club!  

I will happily and readily admit that I have never once felt a literal "burning in the bosum" when it comes to feeling the Spirit- in fact that the memory that phrase invokes for me is 9 months of pregnancy heartburn.  I am not like vast majority of other people, which on most days I'm actually proud about.... though I admit there are times I do think it'll be easier just to be like everyone else.  Not because I really want to be like everyone else, but that it would be easier to not have to be constantly converting everything from "Normal people" lingo/thoughts/actions into "JaneDoe-ese" and vise versa.  

Anyway, back to "burning in the bosum"-- yeah, I don't work like that.  Like many things in this life, I hear Him different than other people do.  So, being the scientific/computer Aspie I am I set about figuring how *I* feel the Spirit.  Like any experiment: I started with observation-- collecting an initial inventory of times it was claimed the Spirit was a work.  Reviewing the initial database and my own thoughts/sensory input/ etc, I observed commonalities and developed an initial hypothesis of how I was perceiving Spiritual information.  Then started round 2: collecting more information, more observations, removing false positives from the dataset, and a new improved hypothesis.  And then round 3 of doing the same thing.  And round 4, iterating until a functional hypothesis was quasi-settled on. 

Even today, there is still iterating back and forth-- like all scientific knowledge I am continuing gathering, I am continually gathering new spiritual information and improving my understanding.  In the science world we call this "pushing the field forward".  In church they call the same thing "learning line upon line".  Whatever words you put to it, that's how my learning has happened and continues to happen.  

I hesitate to state my current functioning theory here with you-- simply because I am different than you, and your perception will be different... *Jane debates it and decides to share*  For me, the Spirit feels like... it is like that moment when I am doing a jigsaw puzzle, and looking at a pile of 2000 piece chaos, and I somehow know what these 3 pieces in the pile just fit together-- there's that sudden supernatural clarity and "this fits here" light bulb.  It is not remotely a "burning busom" or the usual things I hear other LDS people talk about.... which makes sense because I not like the usual person. 

Likewise When I want to receive revelation and listen to his words, other people get on their knees and pray that way... doesn't remotely work for me.  I get out pen, paper, and frequently a soduku, and chat with Him that way--- I actually even got special permission from my temple president to do so even in the temple.  Again, it is different than other people, and that's ok.  To quote Elder Hollond, "it is by divine design that not all voices in God's choir are the same".  

 

Anyways, @Scott, I'm sure you're different me and other people as well so I don't want to have the take home-message of this to be "you're just like me!" (Gah! Anything but that!).  Instead, to encourage you to be you and no one else, and the chat with God whatever way your voice does.  

 

[Jane_Doe]

(Ok, separating this post from my previous because this is for more light hearted fun)

10 hours ago, Scott said:

I still remember lessons and songs being taught when I was a Sunbeam.  

Same here!  It drove my teachers CRAZY growing up that I would just ramble off the the lesson they were about to teach me from memory.  When asked I would shrug and say "Sister Jones already taught us that lesson 6 years ago.  Do you have something else?"  And the current teacher would make a sour face and I would say "I paid attention.  Did you not want me to listen to?" 

It was about college age I learned that it's polite to keep my mouth shut in situations like this.

10 hours ago, Scott said:

I understand this Excel equation perfectly:

 D = SQRT((A1^4*(COS(L1*PI()/180))^2+B1^4*(SIN(L1*PI()/180))^2)/(A1^2*(COS(L1*PI()/180))^2+B1^2*(SIN(L1*PI()/180))^2)+2*(Z1+G1)*SQRT(A1^2*(COS(L1*PI()/180))^2+B1^2*(SIN(L1*PI()/180))^2)+(Z1+G1)^2) 

 

That's easy!  Though once again I wonder why Microsoft can't be bothered to make radian trig functions.  

10 hours ago, Scott said:

In a fraction of a second I can tell you that 6,561 X 6,561 = 43,046,721, just by looking at the number patterns.

Ok, that one I don't do.  But I did invent my own version of calculus in the 6th grade teacher to be lazy about doing my algebra homework (the teacher did not approve). 

10 hours ago, Scott said:

 If you tell me the town you live in or grew up in, if it has a weather station I can tell you off the top of my head the average temperature and records for each month.   I have the NWS database memorized.

 I can stand up and recite word for word the book of Genesis and a whole lot of other books from the Standard Works as well.

 All of that is not difficult for me.

 

You totally have me trumped there.

 

 

I'm curious @Scott, what difficult is Isiah for you?  Does the symbolic heaviness make it super difficult to understand or super easy?   For me it's one of the plainest books out there (sorry Nephi), but I've never met someone else who shares that perspective.

 

10 hours ago, Scott said:

 It doesn’t work for me.   I don’t know if it is because my brain is different from most other people or something else.

I can't speak for you, but that is totally true for me.

[omegaseamaster75]

On 9/14/2017 at 9:38 AM, Scott said:

 

Yes, I am turning down the calling.   I just wish that there was a way that I could feel good about it.   Perhaps that’s a question that can never be answered.

 

You can feel good knowing that you are doing the right thing and being true to yourself.  Most people would live the lie. I commend you.

[anatess2]

13 hours ago, Scott said:

I am going to share some very personal information here, so anyone can take it for what it is worth.   I have never shared this information on a public forum.   This is very hard for me to post.

 I do not feel spiritual things.  I have never heard the “spirit whisper in the ear” or felt the “burning in the bosom”.  That does not mean that I don’t want to.  It isn’t for lack of trying.

 I have an extreme, but high functioning version of Asperger’s syndrome, which may explain some personality clicks.

 I can memorize things better than most people can and have about 40% of the Bible memorized.   I know all the characters in the Standard Works and have done much study on all the Church materials I can get my hands on.  

 I still remember lessons and songs being taught when I was a Sunbeam.   From primary remember word for word the song that says “the spirit whispers this to me and tells me it is true”.   I have heard much about the “burning in the bosom”.

 I have been trying for 40 years to feel these things, but it doesn’t seem that I can.  

 I understand this Excel equation perfectly:

 D = SQRT((A1^4*(COS(L1*PI()/180))^2+B1^4*(SIN(L1*PI()/180))^2)/(A1^2*(COS(L1*PI()/180))^2+B1^2*(SIN(L1*PI()/180))^2)+2*(Z1+G1)*SQRT(A1^2*(COS(L1*PI()/180))^2+B1^2*(SIN(L1*PI()/180))^2)+(Z1+G1)^2) 

In a fraction of a second I can tell you that 6,561 X 6,561 = 43,046,721, just by looking at the number patterns.

 If you tell me the town you live in or grew up in, if it has a weather station I can tell you off the top of my head the average temperature and records for each month.   I have the NWS database memorized.

 I can stand up and recite word for word the book of Genesis and a whole lot of other books from the Standard Works as well.

 All of that is not difficult for me.

 This is what is difficult for me:

 “The Spirit whispers this to me and tells me that it is true”.

 And this:

 8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.

9 But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong; therefore, you cannot write that which is sacred save it be given you from me.

 Which is preceded by this:

 7 Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.

 I have been trying for 40 years to feel or hear the spirit whisper or for a burning in the bosom.

 Here is what I have tried so far:

 I have tried to study the scriptures and all Church materials (even ones not of our Church).   I have tried to fulfill all church callings.    I have prayed for hours and hours, sometimes in tears all night.  This has lasted for 40 years.

 I have been scoutmaster for many years, Elders Quorum President, Executive Secretary through three Bishops, and have committed no grievous sins, other than perhaps unbelief. 

I help the ward members in every way I can.   I house the missionaries.  I offer my home and even vehicles to anyone in need.   I give whenever I can.   I try to be the best husband and father than I can.  I strive to be a friend to all.   I even once gave away ALL of my money in hopes of fulfilling Matthew 19:21.

 I don’t mention this to brag.   I only mention it to show that I have tried everything that I know of to feel the burning in the bosom or hear the whisper of the spirit.

 I have been longing to hear a whisper or feel a burning in the bosom, or to just feel anything spiritual ever since I was a little kid.

 My attempt to memorize the scriptures was yet another attempt in hopes of feeling the burning or hearing the whisper.

 It doesn’t work for me.   I don’t know if it is because my brain is different from most other people or something else.

 Just because I don’t feel spiritual things, doesn’t mean that I don’t want to.   I want to feel something spiritual.   I want to believe.

 I have tried everything I know how to do in order to believe.  So, how do you believe when you can’t feel anything spiritual or when at least you don’t know how to feel such things.  

 I thought that I could do it by memorizing the scriptures, studying all the Church material that I can, fulfilling my callings, and by service to others.  Everyone (at least as far as I know) thinks that I am the model church member and will soon be Bishop.

 Why would I put so much effort into it if I did not want to believe?   I want to believe it with all my heart.   It would make so much easier.

 I feel however that I am trying or have tried everything that I can.

 I have not asked God for a pillar of fire or a sign that it says we are not supposed to ask for.   I only want to feel, if only for a few seconds anything spiritual and anything like a burning in the bosom or a whisper from the Spirit.

 I have asked my wife what it feel like and she said it feels like a hug.   I know what a hug feels like, but I only feel a hug because she is there.

 So yes, I do earnestly seek an understanding of the scriptures and other spiritual things.   I mentioned the story of Jephthah not because I wanted to prove that the scriptures were flawed, but to point out the things that I struggle with.

 I have deep feelings.   I understand love, and I understand it when I am sad, happy, or frustrated.  I care deeply for others.

 After years of seeking, however, I have never felt anything spiritual and I so much want to feel something like a burning in the bosom or the whisper in the ear by the Spirit.   I have been praying for decades to feel these things.

 Since I don’t feel those things, I try and study (not disprove) as much as I can the scriptures because I understand things like logic, rather than the spiritual.   The problem is that even with sincere prayer I haven’t been able to reconcile with many of the scriptures.

 None of this is for lack of trying.   I have been sincerely seeking and praying for a way to feel Spiritual things.

 If you could not seem to feel those things, how else would you seek for a testimony?  For me it was to try and look at all the scriptures from a logical standpoint.   How would you do it.

 As said, I want more than anything to feel spiritual things rather than to only look at them analytically.  I promise that I have tried.

 Please don’t tell me that I simply have not been sincere enough in my prayers.  I promise you that I have.  Telling me that I’m just under the influence of the Devil or something isn’t helpful either. 

 I promise you that I have been very sincere and diligent in trying to believe.   When you don’t have the feelings that you guys speak of those, how do you do this?  

I feel trapped because I want to believe and since I don't know how to tell others that I don't.   I love my wife very much and going to Church makes her happy.   I love the ward members very much and want to serve them.   I was recently asked to be a counselor in the Bishopric.  I can't say yes and be truthful because I don't have a testimony and can't say so in the interview.   None of this means that I haven't sincerely tried or don't want to believe.      I don't think anyone would chose to go through this.

I would trade all of my intellectual ability if I could feel something spiritual even for a few seconds.

SCOTT!!!  DON'T TURN DOWN THE CALLING!

Whoa.  That was big letters.  I'll keep it big because... I think I'm the only one saying it.  Okay, so I didn't read all of the comments, there might be somebody else saying it that I missed.

I'm only going by what you wrote (minus the part where you were talking scripture apologetics of some kind with somebody - I didn't follow those).  Sorry, I'm really pressed for time but I really just want to put this out there.

I think the issue is not that you don't have a testimony.  I think that the issue is that you are expecting the testimony to come in "normal" ways that you didn't realize God has been talking to you all your life through your unique talents.

Trust God.  Trust in his servants.  Trust yourself.  That incident about you being called a scout master at 19 was not an error in God's kingdom but an error in boy scout policy - a secular policy.  You were the perfect person for that job in leading the youth in God's kingdom.

Okay, you might think - I'm just pulling this out of my bum.  Not really.  It took me a while to figure out how the Spirit speaks to me.  It is not through "burning in the bossom" or any of the "normal" ways that people talk about (especially the ones that end up crying when they talk about it).  That's not how the Spirit speaks to me.  The Spirit speaks to me through a certain clarity of logic.  The way I learn - e.g. in school, at work, etc. - is through logic.  It has to make sense to me so my brain doesn't "rankle" like a dog digging for a bone.  The thing is - Church doesn't always work with logic.  There are just things that don't make sense.  I can go in an endless cycle of why's.  Anyway, what I found out is... the Spirit speaks to me through that "rankle".  I can't really explain it.  I'm having a really hard time explaining it now... but I know when the Spirit speaks to me because the "rankle" stops and it's like my brain "settles" into a peaceful state and things make sense like it's perfectly logical and it's a very intimate feeling.  Aaaarrrgg... I'm really botching this explanation.  I can't really describe it properly.

Anyway... the short of it is - you may be thinking that you don't have a testimony when you've felt it all along.  I'm thinking - you've memorized Genesis.  Memorized it.  That's pretty unique!  I have a feeling that God has been using those unique talents - things that come easily to you - to speak to you and reveal to you that Jesus is the Christ.  I am certain that He has been speaking with you the whole time you were an Executive Secretary, that's why you did such a good job of it.  Same as with Fatherhood and being a Husband.  He will do the same as you embark on this new calling.  God has been speaking to you through your special unique abilities.

I haven't met you yet but I love you already.  I can hear God through your OP.  You've touched me that greatly.

[Guest Scott]

 

Quote

 

  18 hours ago, Scott said:

In a fraction of a second I can tell you that 6,561 X 6,561 = 43,046,721, just by looking at the number patterns.

Ok, that one I don't do.  But I did invent my own version of calculus in the 6th grade teacher to be lazy about doing my algebra homework (the teacher did not approve). 

 

This is a bit off topic, but without explaining it fully (so you can have some fun with it), here is the pattern. It's actually a combination of patterns. Given what you have written, I'm guessing that you can figure it out by looking at the below, so it might be fun for you to put the pattern together, with me leaving a few details out just for fun.  I haven't seen any of this on the internet, so I don't know if it is on there, but I figured it out as a kid.

This is the pattern:

9 X 9 = 81
81 x 81 = 6561

6561  X 6561 = 43,046,721

Separate the digits in the products by plus signs and see pattern:

For example, for 81, use 8 + 1 = 9

Continued:

6+5+6+1 = 18

4+3+0+4+6+7+2+1 = 27

I'm sure that you can see the pattern and will know what the sum of (43,046,721)^2 is (36) and so on (45, 54, 63, etc.), when squares are accumulated. 

This will be easier to see if we start out with a smaller number than 6561.   Let's use the next one down, which is 81.

To square 81 (or any cumulative square of 9) using the above, we know the following.

Using the pattern, we know that four digits of whatever the answer is will add up to equal 18.

A + B + C + D = 18

I'm sure than you know this, but the trick to patterns is that don't look at them in that you have to work left to right or vice versa, but solve whatever digit is easiest to solve first.   In this case it is D.

D = 1 because 1^2 is always equal to 1.   This will be true no matter how many times you square 81 cumulatively because the last digit will always be one.  

A and B are the next easiest to solve.   A next to B has to be greater than, but not too much greater than 64 because 8 X 8 is 64 and thus 80 X 80 = 6400.   81 X 81 must be greater than 6400.   If you can see the pattern, you will see that A next to B is 65 (64 + 1).

Thus we have the following:

6 + 5 +C +1 = 18

C is now easy to solve:

 C = 6 

Thus 81 X 81 = 6561.

Use the same pattern above to solve 6561 X 6561.

Those who can see the pattern can do this almost instantaneously by looking at the pattern rather than calculating them out long hand the way they teach you in school. 

Unfortunately such number tricks often only efficiently work to the billionth place or so before getting complicated enough that it's just easier to calculate them rather the deduce the pattern.   Complex number patters do work well for numbers less than 8 or so digits.   

Cumulative squares of 2 also follow fairly simple patterns.   I'll let you work this pattern out on your own if you wish to do so:

2 X 2 = 4

4 X 4 = 16

16 X 16 = 256

256 X 256 = 65,536

For complex pattern of larger numbers it often helps to convert numbers to base 16 before deducing the patterns because things seem to work out really well for number patterns in base 16.

Quote

I'm curious @Scott, what difficult is Isiah for you?  

Isaiah is both easy and difficult for me.   That what's are easy for me and the how's and why's are sometimes hard, if that makes sense.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway, thanks for all the input friends.   I have all of what I need to make the right decision.

 

 

Edited September 15, 2017 by Scott

[seashmore]

@Scott you and I are very different. I was at least eight before I could keep OT Noah straight from Nephi, son of Lehi. I enjoy reading, but my retention is awful. Just awful. I can't even memorize my favorite scriptures. (Music is different because I feel that. Curious now about your memorization status of the hymnal.)

I tell you this because I want to share scriptures that came to mind as I read through what you have said. (I started skimming through what others said.) I'm confident that if I can give you the gist, you can pull up the reference and canonized version faster and more effectively (for you) than I could.

1. You mentioned you wanted to believe, to have faith. Someone in the Book of Mormon (Alma?) said that was enough. In the NT, our faith is compared to a mustard seed.

2. We are all given different spiritual gifts. "To some, it is given to believe, and to some to believe on their words."  Would you be willing to believe in your wife's faith? 

I bring these up not because I want to help you find a testimony (which I do, but that's not what you asked for) but because I believe that if you think you can apply these scriptures to a  calling in the bishopric, you should accept the calling. Remember, the Lord doesn't call the qualified, He qualifies the called. And the Israelites had to set their toes in the water before the Red Sea would part.

Also, thanks for asking this question. I got prompted last minute to teach a lesson on honesty to my YW instead of the tithing I've been thinking about all week, and this discussion gave me some questions to have them answer for themselves.

Edited September 17, 2017 by seashmore

[Grunt]

4 hours ago, seashmore said:

@Scott you and I are very different. I was at least eight before I could keep OT Noah straight from Nephi, son of Lehi. I enjoy reading, but my retention is awful. Just awful. I can't even memorize my favorite scriptures. (Music is different because I feel that. Curious now about your memorization status of the hymnal.)

I tell you this because I want to share scriptures that came to mind as I read through what you have said. (I started skimming through what others said.) I'm confident that if I can give you the gist, you can pull up the reference and canonized version faster and more effectively (for you) than I could.

1. You mentioned you wanted to believe, to have faith. Someone in the Book of Mormon (Alma?) said that was enough. In the NT, our faith is compared to a mustard seed.

2. We are all given different spiritual gifts. "To some, it is given to believe, and to some to believe on their words."  Would you be willing to believe in your wife's faith? 

I bring these up not because I want to help you find a testimony (which I do, but that's not what you asked for) but because I believe that if you think you can apply these scriptures to a  calling in the bishopric, you should accept the calling. Remember, the Lord doesn't call the qualified, He qualifies the called. And the Israelites had to set their toes in the water before the Red Sea would part.

Also, thanks for asking this question. I got prompted last minute to teach a lesson on honesty to my YW instead of the tithing I've been thinking about all week, and this discussion gave me some questions to have them answer for themselves.

I'm really glad you posted this.  I thought almost the same thing but felt weird typing it as a heathen.  

@Scott If you believe in your wife then how can you deny her feeling of the spirit?  That would be enough for me.

I'm also analytical and I find my analytical mind disqualifying my emotional feelings.  When speaking to the missionaries a few weeks ago I had a moment of clarity when I was sure at the time I felt the spirit.  Since then my analytical mind has been working overtime, with some success to convince myself I was crazy and it was just a normal feeling. 

With your condition, it must be even more difficult to accept these things.  

[mdfxdb]

Scott.  You're a smart guy. 

But you don't really think the bible contains stories of actual events do you?  I mean did Jonah really live inside of a whale for 3 days?  Was Job a real person? 

The church is true, the doctrine as currently revealed is perfect, the scriptures are true as far as they are translated correctly.  

[anatess2]

52 minutes ago, mdfxdb said:

 

But you don't really think the bible contains stories of actual events do you?  I mean did Jonah really live inside of a whale for 3 days?  Was Job a real person? 

 

If Joseph Smith can have the Father and Son show themselves to him in a Vision, get plates of gold showed to him by an angel, translate the plates, and the plates disappear... Jonah can live in a whale for 3 days and Job is a real person.

[e-eye]

On 9/15/2017 at 11:41 AM, anatess2 said:

SCOTT!!!  DON'T TURN DOWN THE CALLING!

Whoa.  That was big letters.  I'll keep it big because... I think I'm the only one saying it.  Okay, so I didn't read all of the comments, there might be somebody else saying it that I missed.

I'm only going by what you wrote (minus the part where you were talking scripture apologetics of some kind with somebody - I didn't follow those).  Sorry, I'm really pressed for time but I really just want to put this out there.

I think the issue is not that you don't have a testimony.  I think that the issue is that you are expecting the testimony to come in "normal" ways that you didn't realize God has been talking to you all your life through your unique talents.

Trust God.  Trust in his servants.  Trust yourself.  That incident about you being called a scout master at 19 was not an error in God's kingdom but an error in boy scout policy - a secular policy.  You were the perfect person for that job in leading the youth in God's kingdom.

Okay, you might think - I'm just pulling this out of my bum.  Not really.  It took me a while to figure out how the Spirit speaks to me.  It is not through "burning in the bossom" or any of the "normal" ways that people talk about (especially the ones that end up crying when they talk about it).  That's not how the Spirit speaks to me.  The Spirit speaks to me through a certain clarity of logic.  The way I learn - e.g. in school, at work, etc. - is through logic.  It has to make sense to me so my brain doesn't "rankle" like a dog digging for a bone.  The thing is - Church doesn't always work with logic.  There are just things that don't make sense.  I can go in an endless cycle of why's.  Anyway, what I found out is... the Spirit speaks to me through that "rankle".  I can't really explain it.  I'm having a really hard time explaining it now... but I know when the Spirit speaks to me because the "rankle" stops and it's like my brain "settles" into a peaceful state and things make sense like it's perfectly logical and it's a very intimate feeling.  Aaaarrrgg... I'm really botching this explanation.  I can't really describe it properly.

Anyway... the short of it is - you may be thinking that you don't have a testimony when you've felt it all along.  I'm thinking - you've memorized Genesis.  Memorized it.  That's pretty unique!  I have a feeling that God has been using those unique talents - things that come easily to you - to speak to you and reveal to you that Jesus is the Christ.  I am certain that He has been speaking with you the whole time you were an Executive Secretary, that's why you did such a good job of it.  Same as with Fatherhood and being a Husband.  He will do the same as you embark on this new calling.  God has been speaking to you through your special unique abilities.

I haven't met you yet but I love you already.  I can hear God through your OP.  You've touched me that greatly.

What was the outcome of this as I didn't see if you accepted or didn't accept the calling.    I would agree with this post about accepting the calling - I would but I would be honest to the stake president and seek his council and let him decide if it's right for you.  I am in a bishopric right now.  I am so not even close to being eligible for this calling but like you get the old - you will be bishop next blah blah blah.  

I remember reading a story of a bishop that lost his testimony while he was bishop.  He kept it to himself, did his calling and worked through it for 2 years until one day it came back and he knew the church was true all while he was still bishop.  It was a trial of his faith but he kept moving forward and gave it some time.  

It's ironic that we find people in the church with amazing testimonies and experiences that struggle being charitable and selfless (this is me), and then on the other hand we have you who is full of charity and love and service with little to no testimony of the gospel.  Keep on going, if any of your family or ward finds out your struggles and try to fix you be patient with them.  I would love to give you some of my testimony but alas I can't,  but keep going brother the Lord knows your good heart you will continue to be blessed as you keep trying your best. 

[NightSG]

Ran across this and immediately thought of this thread:

[Still_Small_Voice]

I also struggle in the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  Ever since my teenage years I have struggled with weakness.  I think my struggles will be life long.  But I count it joy for what I have to deal with when I see trials others bear that would crush me.  Many saints struggle in their walk with the LORD through out their lives.  The Apostle Paul I think was haunted by the christians he help throw into prison and those he persecuted in his early life.  Know that you will be required to take up the cross daily and follow the LORD.

Keep enduring Scott and do not give up.  Alma taught if we know more than desire to believe let this continue to work in you.  Let the desire to believe and have faith in Christ continue to work in you

[Guest]

.

Edited November 2, 2017 by DoctorLemon

[Blueskye2]

On 9/14/2017 at 11:45 AM, Scott said:

 

 

I do not believe that the Church is an elaborate scam, nor do I believe that Satan is behind it.

I truly believe that the Church leaders are good people, that they are doing good things, and that they believe that they are directed by God and that they aren’t trying to deceive anyone.   I believe them to be good examples in the world and I still enjoy the conference talks.    I want to commend the members of the Church for doing so much good in the world.

As far as the scriptures go, I don’t want to discuss this in too much detail because I don’t want to hurt anyone else’s testimony or to cause an off topic debate, but it isn’t just a few scriptures, it is many.   If the Old Testament and Book of Ether didn’t exist, I would probably still have a testimony.

There are just too many scriptures that I can’t reconcile.   If you want a specific example, I will use the random example of Judges 11:28-40. 

I just can’t reconcile myself with the story that someone can participate in human sacrifices and still remain in good standing with the Lord.    I have studies such scriptures extensively and have tried to seek and study all other outside sources as well.

It doesn’t help that the Seminary and institute manuals use someone (Kassler) who was against our Church as the source to say it never happened and the story was mistranslated.    The Seminary and Institute manuals are in direct contrast to what Joseph Smith and the Bible Dictionary say about the story.  

To me the story in the Bible is very clear.   According to the Bible (Joseph Smith did finish translating the book of Judges), Jephthah sacrificed his innocent daughter as a burnt offering after the spirit of the Lord entered him.    He also remained a leader of high esteem after this happened and was even commended in the New Testament (Hebrews 11:32-34).

Needless to say, those kinds of stories are all skipped over in Sunday School, Seminary, etc. 

I just haven’t been able to reconcile myself which such scriptures, which is why I lost my testimony of them after trying to memorize them in their entirety. 

 

 

 

FWIW, I don’t see Hebrews as commending the sacrifice of a daughter. It is commending faith, which Jephthah had in regards to believiving the God of a Israel would be victorious over a pagan god, vis a vis battle between the followers of their respective God(s). A better detailed explanation is here. http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/the-biblical-hero-who-.-.-.-killed-his-daughter Short of it is, the author of Hebrews would not commend human sacrifice as it is strictly forbidden in the Moasic Laws of Deuteronomy. The author and his Jewish audience would be as convinced of the wrongnesss of human sacrifice as you and I. Hebrews itself goes into great length regarding no blood sacrifice being required because of Jesus Christ. 

Otherwise, I’ve seen the sacrifice part of Jephthah’s story compared to the Greek folktale of Iphigenia, ie, it didn’t really happen; the ancient story being repurposed and inserted in the story as an explanation for the practice in verses 39 and 40.  This also supports Hebrews being about the faith of Jephthah, in believing God would make his army victorious, and not about commending human sacrifice.

God uses us sinful humans, like Jephthah, a bandit with no inheritance who makes rash vows and performs human sacrifice. The epitome of all that a righteous Jewish man is not.  Yet his faith (not his rash vow),  “conquered kingdoms”.

More often than not, OT stories are about God’s mercy and endless patience with His chosen people. Numerous incidences of God using men and women of faith, who were far from perfect. The NT continues this theme, for as St. Paul wrote, “Christ died for us, while we were still sinners”. It is about God’s love, towards us.

It seems rather serendipitous to me, that your predicament and the story of Jephthah, are being discussed in the same thread! (Or maybe time to call up Dr. Freud.  )

Edit to add a thought of my own.  Often characters in the OT represent Israel.  In the story of Jephthah, it is again, that the Israelites have fallen into idolatry. Human sacrifice was a practice of the tribes around them, who sacrificed children to the foreign gods that the Israelites were forbidden to worship.  So Jephthah could represent Israel, idolotrous with a simultaneous faith in the One God of Israel.  Not righteous yet still, chosen by God,,with God’s endless mercy and love, shown even while they are still sinners. Conquering their idolatrous neighbors, yet again a period when the Israelites turn away from the foreign gods. For a while anyway, not really getting over their infatuation with foreign gods, until after the Babylonian exile.  

Edited November 28, 2017 by Blueskye2

[Guest Scott]

Quote

But you don't really think the bible contains stories of actual events do you?  I mean did Jonah really live inside of a whale for 3 days?  Was Job a real person? 

For the most part, no I do not think that many of them are literal stories of actually events (Garden of Eden, Noah's Ark, Tower of Babel, Jonah, Job, etc.).   I guess that was part of the problem, but the main part was the violence against peaceable non Hebrews or non-believers in the Old Testament.  Yes, I did study, search, ponder, and pray for many years on all of this and yes I did have the desire to believe.
 

Quote

What was the outcome of this as I didn't see if you accepted or didn't accept the calling.  

I turned it down and said that I needed needed to work on some things, that I didn't have much of a testimony at this time, and that will be out of town on a work project for the next several months (all of which is true).   I told them if anyone ever needed help I am always willing.

When I didn't go back, my wife was asked a few questions by ward members, but I was sad to find out that our family was somewhat ostracized by some since we have a close knit and sometimes some gossipy ward members (in a very small town).    Only a few members are like that, but it sort of does bring things down.

Anyway, I decided to focus on charity instead of doctrine and I am helping out with several charities instead of attending church.  Along with our family, we decided on helping others in physical and emotional need as much as we could and I'll let my light shine that way, even if often anonymously.  

I know this isn't the conclusion to the story that some were looking for, but for me it was the only choice I could feel honest and comfortable with.  

I wish you all the best.

 

Edited December 9, 2017 by Scott