Religious vs cultural Mormonism

[JohnsonJones]

14 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

Dear @The Folk Prophet. I did have the activities coordinator for Relief Society (RS) tell me  that that I should have my temple recommend revoked for not attending activities. I have had the activities people for Single Adults pester me weekly about activities with phone calls, emails, & flyers despite repeated explanations and refusals. Yes, I am good at saying No. But sometimes, the reminders and frankly pleading & begging, is ridiculous. I finally told my RS president very firmly that I will never attend a RS activity and she stopped bugging me.

I wonder actually if there is something in a handbook somewhere that recommends many activities if your ward is dwindling. My ward attendance ranges from 30 adults to 150. We have activities every week. I wonder if they are trying to increase ward size or recapture lost members? Right now, we have a Star Wars Night every few weeks where they play the movies. We have chili bake offs, water balloon fights, lots of parties. Really anything that you can think of, we have. 

I agree that there is a HUGE culture within Mormonism, and VERY often it gets confused with the actual gospel.  Unfortunately, many times people put the cultural artifacts of Mormonism above that of the doctrinal commandments found in the gospel contained in the Holy Scriptures that the LDS church uses.

I typically LOVE the culture surrounding Mormonism (and even created my own thread for thoughts and ideas I have in that regards covering very different aspects from worldly to religious hypothesis that have no real place relating to direct doctrine, to things dealing between the culture of Mormonism and the actual doctrine in the gospel through my eyes).  I am very aware that there is a very big difference between the two.

We need to be careful that we are not like the Pharisees and Sadducees that were around during the New Testament that belied a greater emphasis on cultural religion rather than the actual doctrinal religion which the Lord followed. 

It can be hard for us to differentiate between what is gospel and what is cultural (though I think a BIg hint is whether it is found in the scriptures, or whether it is found elsewhere...scriptures are normally gospel...elsewhere is normally cultural). 

A Cultural Mormon is very much what I am.  There are traditions that are in the Mormon church (for example, all men young and old should wear white shirts and ties, it should be the deacons who pass the sacrament and they should be given the first opportunity before others are asked, or you do not drink caffeinated drinks...all things which I advocate but are purely cultural rather than something specified in the gospel) that have no basis in the scriptures.  People like me have traditions and other things that we associate with being Mormon in the LDS church...

However, I am VERY aware that many of these things are what probably make me a cultural Mormon in that aspect.  I also realize though, that there is a great gulf of differences between what I may practice because of my personal thoughts in regards to Mormonism (and it is from these types of traditions and thoughts in practice that Cultural Mormonism comes about) and what the actual words say in the scriptures as well as the actual specific doctrines that are dictated from the pulpit state.  Where as I am a cultural Mormon in how I practice my religion in many ways (though that does NOT PRECLUDE me from also being a Mormon and actually practicing the gospel, which is something I do right alongside my cultural ideas and heritage), someone who does NOT believe or think in the same way and is strictly someone who reads the scriptures and follows the actual Doctrines as specified therein and from our leaders is just as faithful and true to the Gospel and the Lord as a Cultural Mormon is.

In many instances it is probable that those who do NOT follow the culture that we find among many Mormons may actually be MORE faithful and true than those of us who are "Cultural" Mormons.

Edited April 16, 2018 by JohnsonJones

[The Folk Prophet]

2 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

(though I think a BIg hint is whether it is found in the scriptures, or whether it is found elsewhere...scriptures are normally gospel...elsewhere is normally cultural). 

So teachings and counsel from our living prophets and apostles are cultural?

[Traveler]

@Sunday21 and @MormonGator

I do not believe one is ever wise to not accept a call from G-d – ever.  With that said, I have served in a bishopric and realize that there are times when calls come from the “Best Efforts” of servants of G-d serving as best as possible in their respective callings.  There are times when we should council with our respective leaders concerning our callings.

I have a good friend that while serving in the calling of Stake President, became overwhelmed with the needs of his stake that were coming into conflict with the needs of his family.  He finely came to the conclusion that it would be best if he was released from his church calling.  He took his concerns to an Apostle and asked to be released.  During this time my friend laid out the problems and conflict he was facing – basically saying he could not fulfill his calling as father and Stake President.  I personally understand this dilemma because while serving in a bishopric I followed down this same path.  My friend was counselled by an apostle to take care of his family and employment needs first – then prioritize what he had left for his calling as Stake President.  If there were pressing matters in the stake, he could delegate.  If the matters could not be delegated he was to let them go (undone if necessary) – taking care of his family needs first.

My friend continued to serve as a Stake President – perhaps even a better Stake President than before and then later as a 70 and general authority.

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

19 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

So teachings and counsel from our living prophets and apostles are cultural?

Also @JohnsonJones

What is written in scripture or spoken by living prophets or any ordained servant of G-d is gospel.  How we or anyone else interprets or apply those things either individually or collectively are cultural.

 

The Traveler

Edited April 16, 2018 by Traveler

[Fether]

15 hours ago, MormonGator said:

A house divided...

Wasn’t the house unified after one side beat the other?

[Fether]

23 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

So teachings and counsel from our living prophets and apostles are cultural?

The words of the prophets are scripture.

[omegaseamaster75]

4 minutes ago, Fether said:

The words of the prophets are scripture.

Really? I don't remember ratifying new scripture in the last conference, I also didn't hear a "Thus saith the Lord" during any of the conference talks.

[Guest MormonGator]

21 minutes ago, Traveler said:

@Sunday21 and @MormonGator

I do not believe one is ever wise to not accept a call from G-d – ever.  With that said, I have served in a bishopric and realize that there are times when calls come from the “Best Efforts” of servants of G-d serving as best as possible in their respective callings.  There are times when we should council with our respective leaders concerning our callings.

I have a good friend that while serving in the calling of Stake President, became overwhelmed with the needs of his stake that were coming into conflict with the needs of his family.  He finely came to the conclusion that it would be best if he was released from his church calling.  He took his concerns to an Apostle and asked to be released.  During this time my friend laid out the problems and conflict he was facing – basically saying he could not fulfill his calling as father and Stake President.  I personally understand this dilemma because while serving in a bishopric I followed down this same path.  My friend was counselled by an apostle to take care of his family and employment needs first – then prioritize what he had left for his calling as Stake President.  If there were pressing matters in the stake, he could delegate.  If the matters could not be delegated he was to let them go (undone if necessary) – taking care of his family needs first.

My friend continued to serve as a Stake President – perhaps even a better Stake President than before and then later as a 70 and general authority.

 

The Traveler

Great points, as always @Traveler. Your insight is, as always, spot on. 

[Fether]

7 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

Really? I don't remember ratifying new scripture in the last conference, I also didn't hear a "Thus saith the Lord" during any of the conference talks.

“When the Lord’s servants speak or write under the influence of the Holy Ghost, their words become scripture”

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-10-scriptures?lang=eng

What is the Book of Mormon if not words of dead prophets? Are their words more inspired than prophets today? I would argue and say that the words modern day prophets are more important than the words of dead prophets.

[Fether]

14 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

I also didn't hear a "Thus saith the Lord" during any of the conference talks.

“The prophet does not have to say “Thus saith the Lord” to give us scripture.” - President Benson

You should read this https://www.lds.org/liahona/1981/06/fourteen-fundamentals-in-following-the-prophet?lang=eng

[Traveler]

@Fether & @omegaseamaster75

It does not matter what is said or written – if not heard by the Power of the Holy Ghost there will not be any eternal benefit beyond those that spoke or wrote by whatever divine power they possessed.

 

The Traveler

[Fether]

1 minute ago, Traveler said:

@Fether & @omegaseamaster75

It does not matter what is said or written – if not heard by the Power of the Holy Ghost there will not be any eternal benefit beyond those that spoke or wrote by whatever divine power they possessed.

 

The Traveler

But there will be condemnation to those that do hear and reject, or those that refuse to hear.

[Fether]

1 minute ago, Traveler said:

@Fether & @omegaseamaster75

It does not matter what is said or written – if not heard by the Power of the Holy Ghost there will not be any eternal benefit beyond those that spoke or wrote by whatever divine power they possessed.

 

The Traveler

But there will be condemnation to those that do hear and reject, or those that refuse to hear.

[Traveler]

4 minutes ago, Fether said:

But there will be condemnation to those that do hear and reject, or those that refuse to hear.

 

Perhaps – but I do not think it is necessary that such condemnation have you or I as the source.

 

The Traveler

[anatess2]

17 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

Dear @The Folk Prophet. I did have the activities coordinator for Relief Society (RS) tell me  that that I should have my temple recommend revoked for not attending activities. I have had the activities people for Single Adults pester me weekly about activities with phone calls, emails, & flyers despite repeated explanations and refusals. Yes, I am good at saying No. But sometimes, the reminders and frankly pleading & begging, is ridiculous. I finally told my RS president very firmly that I will never attend a RS activity and she stopped bugging me.

I wonder actually if there is something in a handbook somewhere that recommends many activities if your ward is dwindling. My ward attendance ranges from 30 adults to 150. We have activities every week. I wonder if they are trying to increase ward size or recapture lost members? Right now, we have a Star Wars Night every few weeks where they play the movies. We have chili bake offs, water balloon fights, lots of parties. Really anything that you can think of, we have. 

This is not a problem within Mormonism.  This is a with the culture.  Go to the closest Catholic Ministry or even the PTA.  I'm sure you'll find the same problem there.

Here in the Philippines, I have a backwards problem - I have a problem with the shirt and tie and its incongruity with the culture.  It is 90 degrees here most days and we don't have A/C.  That's why the Philippine tradition is the barong tagalog and not a white shirt and tie... it is just a lot more comfortable.  Unfortunately, the Church policy is the white shirt and tie.  Not a gospel thing, I'm sure, but it's policy so we follow it.

[Vort]

2 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Here in the Philippines, I have a backwards problem - I have a problem with the shirt and tie and its incongruity with the culture.  It is 90 degrees here most days and we don't have A/C.  That's why the Philippine tradition is the barong tagalog and not a white shirt and tie... it is just a lot more comfortable.  Unfortunately, the Church policy is the white shirt and tie.  Not a gospel thing, I'm sure, but it's policy so we follow it.

Not Florida? Did you move, or are you visiting home?

[Traveler]

4 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

This is not a problem within Mormonism.  This is a with the culture.  Go to the closest Catholic Ministry or even the PTA.  I'm sure you'll find the same problem there.

Here in the Philippines, I have a backwards problem - I have a problem with the shirt and tie and its incongruity with the culture.  It is 90 degrees here most days and we don't have A/C.  That's why the Philippine tradition is the barong tagalog and not a white shirt and tie... it is just a lot more comfortable.  Unfortunately, the Church policy is the white shirt and tie.  Not a gospel thing, I'm sure, but it's policy so we follow it.

 

Interesting view – I would add that I have never seen a depiction of G-d the Father or his Son Jesus Christ in a white shirt and tie?

 

The Traveler

[Vort]

2 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I have never seen a depiction of G-d the Father or his Son Jesus Christ in a white shirt and tie

[Traveler]

2 minutes ago, Vort said:

 

Oh my – I think this guy is in my ward!  I may have even called him to repentance.

 

The Traveler

[The Folk Prophet]

48 minutes ago, Fether said:

The words of the prophets are scripture.

I know that. Putting aside the debate about when we can know they're moved upon, etc... I'm querying if @JohnsonJones is meaning that or not.

Additionally...let's say we know they are not speaking under the influence of the Holy Spirit. Still cultural? (Let's specify "they" as meaning the prophet speaking in conference).

[Fether]

12 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I know that. Putting aside the debate about when we can know they're moved upon, etc... I'm querying if @JohnsonJones is meaning that or not.

Additionally...let's say we know they are not speaking under the influence of the Holy Spirit. Still cultural? (Let's specify "they" as meaning the prophet speaking in conference).

Every member of the church ought to take every word spoken in conference as scriptural. The words they speak are not opinion, but words from God. If they do stray in what they teach and we obey. They will be the ones unde condemnation, Not us.

Only danger comes from deciding if a prophet is speaking under the spirit or not.

Edited April 16, 2018 by Fether

[NeuroTypical]

Ok, TFP, here are some examples of what I'd call the seedy underbelly of "cultural mormonism".  Let's see you defend some of these as righteous behavior:

- Intentionally not inviting someone to some group activity because you haven't seen them in church recently and fear they've become inactive and would be a bad influence.

- When Mirk pulls you over for speeding, you hand him your temple recommend, and then judge him insufficiently spiritual when you get a ticket anyway.

- Assuming that someone accused of a crime must be innocent, because they're more active than you, and hold what you consider to be a higher calling.  (Or, the more evil version of this one - helping someone hide their misdeeds because if they came to light, the church would be embarrassed.)

 

 

Other less-objectionable, beneficial examples of cultural mormonism would include familycentric stuff, funeral potatoes, befriending new neighbors, service to total strangers, etc.  Cultural aspects that spring from our following the Gospel.  

[anatess2]

48 minutes ago, Vort said:

Not Florida? Did you move, or are you visiting home?

Oh yeah... sorry.  I'm not home in Florida currently.  I'm home in the Philippines.  One of these days I'm gonna have to pick one and stick with it.

[Vort]

24 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

- Intentionally not inviting someone to some group activity because you haven't seen them in church recently and fear they've become inactive and would be a bad influence.

- When Mirk pulls you over for speeding, you hand him your temple recommend, and then judge him insufficiently spiritual when you get a ticket anyway.

- Assuming that someone accused of a crime must be innocent, because they're more active than you, and hold what you consider to be a higher calling.  (Or, the more evil version of this one - helping someone hide their misdeeds because if they came to light, the church would be embarrassed.)

While I'm sure that this sort of thing happens from time to time, I am blissfully unaware of it being anything like a common occurrence. I find the above examples to be distasteful in the extreme, and if I found them actually being practiced, I would be shocked. So the above is not any type of "cultural Mormonism" of which I'm aware.

[anatess2]

2 minutes ago, Vort said:

While I'm sure that this sort of thing happens from time to time, I am blissfully unaware of it being anything like a common occurrence. I find the above examples to be distasteful in the extreme, and if I found them actually being practiced, I would be shocked. So the above is not any type of "cultural Mormonism" of which I'm aware.

Same here.

But then, I've never been to Utah.