Religious vs cultural Mormonism

[The Folk Prophet]

2 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

The following is a joke...well...mostly.

If you want to know the difference between a Mormon and a Utah Mormon...see the differences between @The Folk Prophet and @MormonGator and it becomes apparent quite quickly.

Maybe you should have compared the Utah Mormon @The Folk Prophet and the not-in-Utah Mormon @Vort.

Oh....wait.....

2 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

Even to the point that if you do not eat Green Jello at a Potluck, you have committed some cardinal sin.

You know...I've never gotten the green jello "joke". I hear it all the time, but I don't know that I've ever had green jello at a church activity in my Utah Mormon life. Seems like it must be hold-over from the 50s or something. I can't, honestly, recall the last time Jello was served at a ward function at all. I'm sure it is in places...but.... And it's not like I've been in the same ward my whole life. I've changed locations a lot. Salt Lake Wards, Cedar City Wards, Utah Valley wards, etc., etc...

The problem with dated jokes, of course, is they're not funny any more.

[mirkwood]

All the "stuff" I hear about Utah Mormons I've watched  the California, Arizona, Idaho, Nevada, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Delaware, Maryland and Indiana Mormons do.  When I take the time to really pick at what people mean when they talk about Utah Mormons, the majority start telling me their BYU stories.  I laugh at this point.  I guess they don't realize that at least half, if not more, of the students at BYU are not from Utah.    A large portion of the other stories come from Utah county, mostly centered around Provo, which is where BYU is located.  Notice a common theme here?

 

 

 

[Guest MormonGator]

10 hours ago, mordorbund said:

UGH!! I know, right?! They're all, "My dad can beat up your dad. Actually, my great great grandpa DID beat up your great great grandpa." and "No, I didn't actually achieve the same awesomeness as my ancestor, but I'm awesome by association. I'm sporting his blue eyes and orange jersey, so I'm a WINNER!!!" and "My team won the America Bowl! IN YOUR FACE LOSER!!!!! And even when my team loses, it's still better than yours! And when you wear your sports team's hat you're voluntarily planting the mark of the beast on your forehead. ANTICHRIST!!!!!!!!"

Wait, what are we talking about again?

lol. 

The irony is that I think we spend more time thinking of our ancestors than they did thinking about us. I'm virtually assuring you that in 1822 your great-great-great-great-great-great grandfather was not thinking of who @mordorbund would be when he was plowing the fields. 

[zil]

In upstate NY, when I was a teenager, "Utah Mormon" meant a social-stuff-only Mormon - someone who liked the activities and socializing, but was, at best, "casual" about living the gospel (in other words, were perfectly happy to ignore the Word of Wisdom, law of chastity, and such).

[Lee]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

He said,"It's just that Mormons in Utah tend to take a lot of things for granted."

 

That is probably true. I imagine it is easier being a Mormon in Utah compared to anywhere else. I don't know because I have only ever lived in Utah except for my time at college when I wasn't active so I am just guessing that it is easier to be a Mormon in Utah. 

[zil]

Just now, Lee said:

I imagine it is easier being a Mormon in Utah compared to anywhere else.

I don't.  I grew up anywhere else.  If you were Mormon, you were a good Mormon.  Everyone else was not Mormon.  There was no confusion about our standards - other people might do "X", but we were Mormons.

In Utah, there were active Mormons, inactive Mormons, good Mormons, bad Mormons, indifferent Mormons, etc.  I can only imagine that it was much easier for a kid growing up in that to be confused as to what is / is not right, or to excuse bad behavior with the justification that "these other Mormons are doing it".

[mirkwood]

4 minutes ago, Lee said:

That is probably true. I imagine it is easier being a Mormon in Utah compared to anywhere else. I don't know because I have only ever lived in Utah except for my time at college when I wasn't active so I am just guessing that it is easier to be a Mormon in Utah. 

That was not my experience.  Much like what @zil posted above.

[estradling75]

2 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

That was not my experience.  Much like what @zil posted above.

Indeed same here...  I will fully grant that "Utah Mormons" can be hypocritical, judgemental, whatever, etc..  But that is not a function of their religion or their localization.  Its a function of being human.  In Utah the hypocritical, judgemental, jerk, also has higher odds of being Mormon.  

 

[The Folk Prophet]

So on the one hand....Utah Mormons are lazy and not serious about the gospel...and on the other hand....Utah Mormons are too serious about the gospel.

Which is it people?!?

 

Oh...I know. It's a way to disparage anyone who disagrees with you. See...if you're lax about the gospel then those Utah Mormons are too serious and judgmental...and if you're self-righteous then those Utah Mormons are hypocrites who don't really live their religion.

 

The truth is we're both. Because we're people. And we're lax and too serious and smart and stupid and kind and unkind and faithful and faithless and cliquish and open and tolerant and intolerant.

Peoples is peoples.

 

Edited April 19, 2018 by The Folk Prophet

[Traveler]

6 hours ago, NightSG said:

School zone and a good hill.

Had a trooper blip his siren at me a few days ago.  Didn't actually stop me, but I did slow from 28 down to just a little over the 20 speed limit.

Last year I was going 40 in a 25 zone (full out sprint).  Officer there in his car with radar.  I smiled and waved - he smiled and waved back?????  My guess is that carbon fiber does not show up on radar?

 

The Traveler

[zil]

I will say that being an adult, active Mormon in Utah might be easier in some ways than elsewhere.  Instead of spending 2 hours driving to visit with those to whom you're assigned to minister, you spend 2 minutes walking across the street.  Instead of it taking half an hour to drive to church, it takes 4 minutes (and half of that time is spent waiting for the garage door to go up and then back down).  Instead of 75 adults to fill all the callings, you have 200.

But it can also be harder - for the same reasons mentioned above.  Also, I think missionary work is harder in Utah - everyone's already made up their minds.  At least in low density Zion there's the curiosity factor and a chance to correct misperceptions.

(How is it that Firefox's spell checker doesn't know that misperceptions is a word!?)

Edited April 19, 2018 by zil

[zil]

9 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

So on the one hand....Utah Mormons are lazy and not serious about the gospel...and on the other hand....Utah Mormons are too serious about the gospel.

Which is it people?!?

 

Oh...I know. It's a way to disparage anyone who disagrees with you. See...if you're lax about the gospel then those Utah Mormons are too serious and judgmental...and if you're self-righteous then those Utah Mormons are hypocrites who don't really live their religion.

 

The truth is we're both. Because we're people. And we're lax and too serious and smart and stupid and kind and unkind and faithful and faithless and cliquish and open and tolerant and intolerant.

Peoples is peoples.

FWIW, I'm pretty sure that no one I grew up with believed that all Mormons in Utah were "Utah Mormons" - we knew there were lots of good Mormons in Utah.

[Lee]

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

So on the one hand....Utah Mormons are lazy and not serious about the gospel...and on the other hand....Utah Mormons are too serious about the gospel.

Which is it people?!?

Exactly

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

The truth is we're both. Because we're people. And we're lax and too serious and smart and stupid and kind and unkind and faithful and faithless and cliquish and open and tolerant and intolerant.

 

That is why I think it is dumb to use Utah Mormonism as a phrase. Utah is great people just be hating for no reason. 

[The Folk Prophet]

12 minutes ago, Lee said:

Utah is great people just be hating for no reason. 

Except for their sometimes usage of the word "haffin'". As in, "I fixed my truck without haffin' to take it in to a shop."

[Lee]

1 hour ago, zil said:

I don't.  I grew up anywhere else.  If you were Mormon, you were a good Mormon.  Everyone else was not Mormon.  There was no confusion about our standards - other people might do "X", but we were Mormons.

In Utah, there were active Mormons, inactive Mormons, good Mormons, bad Mormons, indifferent Mormons, etc.  I can only imagine that it was much easier for a kid growing up in that to be confused as to what is / is not right, or to excuse bad behavior with the justification that "these other Mormons are doing it".

No matter where you are just because someone is a Mormon doesn't mean they are a good Mormon or a good person. I was a terrible Mormon when I was 17 and a bit of a jerk but I was still a Mormon. So your point is that in Utah we call more people Mormons who aren't Mormons?

[Lee]

2 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Except for their sometimes usage of the word "haffin'". As in, "I fixed my truck without haffin' to take it in to a shop."

Can't say I am familiar but I have had a very sheltered life 

[The Folk Prophet]

6 minutes ago, Lee said:

Can't say I am familiar but I have had a very sheltered life 

People claim a lot of Utahisms that I've never heard. But 3 that drive me crazy and are common are haffin', fer (instead of for), and saying "Where are we at?" instead of "Where are we?"

Edit: (They don't really drive me crazy. I just notice them quite often.)

Edited April 19, 2018 by The Folk Prophet

[NightSG]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

Last year I was going 40 in a 25 zone (full out sprint).  Officer there in his car with radar.  I smiled and waved - he smiled and waved back?????  My guess is that carbon fiber does not show up on radar?

Maybe he figured anybody on a plastic bike is too young to get a ticket, so he was waiting until your mommy lets you ride metal.

[Guest MormonGator]

1 hour ago, zil said:

I will say that being an adult, active Mormon in Utah might be easier in some ways than elsewhere.  Instead of spending 2 hours driving to visit with those to whom you're assigned to minister, you spend 2 minutes walking across the street.  Instead of it taking half an hour to drive to church, it takes 4 minutes (and half of that time is spent waiting for the garage door to go up and then back down).  Instead of 75 adults to fill all the callings, you have 200.

But it can also be harder - for the same reasons mentioned above.  Also, I think missionary work is harder in Utah - everyone's already made up their minds.  At least in low density Zion there's the curiosity factor and a chance to correct misperceptions.

(How is it that Firefox's spell checker doesn't know that misperceptions is a word!?)

Missionary work is hard anywhere I think. If it was easier, then our conversion rates would be much higher. 

[Lee]

1 hour ago, zil said:

But it can also be harder - for the same reasons mentioned above.  Also, I think missionary work is harder in Utah - everyone's already made up their minds.  At least in low density Zion there's the curiosity factor and a chance to correct misperceptions.

Again I wouldn't know I have never done missionary work. 

[Vort]

1 hour ago, Lee said:

3 hours ago, zil said:

I don't.  I grew up anywhere else.  If you were Mormon, you were a good Mormon.  Everyone else was not Mormon.  There was no confusion about our standards - other people might do "X", but we were Mormons.

In Utah, there were active Mormons, inactive Mormons, good Mormons, bad Mormons, indifferent Mormons, etc.  I can only imagine that it was much easier for a kid growing up in that to be confused as to what is / is not right, or to excuse bad behavior with the justification that "these other Mormons are doing it".

No matter where you are just because someone is a Mormon doesn't mean they are a good Mormon or a good person. I was a terrible Mormon when I was 17 and a bit of a jerk but I was still a Mormon. So your point is that in Utah we call more people Mormons who aren't Mormons?

@zil's point seemed crystal clear to me. Not sure why it's murky for you.

When you grow up as a Mormon living outside of Utah/western Wyoming/southern Idaho/northern Arizona/southern Nevada (the so-called Mormon Corridor), you have a very different experience than those who grow up in "Zion". Mormons are a minority, and are typically viewed with skepticism and even outright hostility. Absurd and usually unfunny Mormon jokes abound. You are distrusted, because you are a cultist. People expect that you'll eventually shave your head and sell flowers at the airport, or wear a wide-brimmed hat and a bushy beard and live without indoor plumbing in the desert with your wives. You will almost certainly have some neighborhood families and schoolmates who will refuse to associate with you because of your weirdo religion.

You know those high school-aged priests who go to keggers and fornicate with their girlfriends on Saturday night, then come and bless sacrament on Sunday? Well, they exist outside of a Utah context, but they're actually very rare. There is little social incentive for a young man (or woman) who wants to pursue that lifestyle to keep up a Mormon façade. They will have less access to alcohol, drugs, and women, not more, if they keep pretending to be Mormon.

So while non-Mormon Corridor teens can have all the same moral problems as those in the Utah area, the two-faced double life is unusual in The Mission Field®. That's as true for adults as it is for teens, by the way. If you're a Mormon, you tend to be all in. My Utah relatives and friends have often complained about those in their ward whose outside-the-Church-walls life flies in the face of their covenants, yet they proclaim themselves Mormon. You simply don't see very much of this in The Mission Field® -- or at least you don't see it in as high a concentration.

That's not to say that we outside-of-Utah Mormons don't have our own quirks and challenges. Being Mormon outside of Utah means that you're always very conscious (even self-conscious) of your religion. Sometimes people will wear their religion on their sleeve, which understandably can cause awkward situations and social friction in many circumstances. Others will keep their religion strictly private, actively avoiding any mention of activities or even family situations that might involve religion.

We all have 40 pounds of rocks to carry around. Some learn to bear the burden better than others, but you can't get rid of the 40 pounds of rocks, no matter where you live.

Edited April 19, 2018 by Vort

[anatess2]

28 minutes ago, Vort said:

We all have 40 pounds of rocks to carry around. Some learn to bear the burden better than others, but you can't get rid of the 40 pounds of rocks, no matter where you live.

Now I get it!  I've been wondering why I can't lose weight.  It's those darned rocks.

Edited April 19, 2018 by anatess2

[zil]

1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

Missionary work is hard anywhere I think. If it was easier, then our conversion rates would be much higher. 

I agree it's hard anywhere, but in Utah, they sense you from a mile away, they generally already have accurate information about the Church, and they generally don't want anything more to do with it than they already have.  Missionary work usually consists of getting inactives to come back, catching new move-ins before they've formed an opinion, or finally convincing people who aren't violently opposed to the Church's existence to check it out further.

Of course, outside high-density Zion, you will have to deal with people who slam the door in your face cuz they think you're a nut job; people who are as converted to their own religion as you are; and people who are convinced you're a sneaky liar trying to get them in the door where they'll be forcibly baptized and then soaked for all their money in the name of tithing, followed by weirdo underwear and shocking temple stuff.

So, I guess you just have to decide which kind of disinterested person you want to interact with. After enough time in Utah, I'm thinking I want the other kind of disinterested person for a while.

Edited April 19, 2018 by zil

[Lee]

29 minutes ago, Vort said:

"Zion". Mormons are a minority, and are typically viewed with skepticism and even outright hostility. Absurd and usually unfunny Mormon jokes abound. You are distrusted, because you are a cultist.

That is why I assumed that it is easier to be a Mormon in Utah then anywhere else. 

 

31 minutes ago, Vort said:

You know those high school-aged priests who go to keggers and fornicate with their girlfriends on Saturday night, then come and bless sacrament on Sunday? Well, they exist outside of a Utah context, but they're actually very rare. There is little social incentive for a young man (or woman) who wants to pursue that lifestyle to keep up a Mormon façade. They will have less access to alcohol, drugs, and women, not more, if they keep pretending to be Mormon

I can't really comment on that but in Utah there is a lot of pressure to at least appear as a Mormon because almost all of your friends and family are. It isn't so much they keep up the appearance to get access to the things you mention but it is easier to still have fiends and family think you are a good Mormon. Also, they may still identify as being Mormons it is a big part of their life even attending church is so that is one reason they may not stop. 

 

37 minutes ago, Vort said:

My Utah relatives and friends have often complained about those in their ward whose outside-the-Church-walls life flies in the face of their covenants, yet they proclaim themselves Mormon. You simply don't see very much of this in The Mission Field® -- or at least you don't see it in as high a concentration.

So if those relatives and friends weren't in Utah then they wouldn't say they were Mormons? Or do you think they would be better Mormons if they didn't live in Utah ? 

[wenglund]

3 hours ago, Lee said:

That is probably true. I imagine it is easier being a Mormon in Utah compared to anywhere else. I don't know because I have only ever lived in Utah except for my time at college when I wasn't active so I am just guessing that it is easier to be a Mormon in Utah. 

In some ways, I found the opposite to be true. Living in Utah during my early teens, I was ridiculed for being a "goody-two-shoes" and "Molly Mormon" for living my religion, and this mostly by members of the Church.  Whereas in my late teens living in Washington State, my mostly non-member friends found my fairly strict religious observances to be odd, but admirable, and they would even call me out if I didn't live up to my standards.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-