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Anddenex

A Response to President Nelson's Address at BYU

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36 minutes ago, Fether said:

I’m sure you get this already, but I want to clarify for the reader. A Father’s “Revelation” does not overwrite clear direction from the prophet. Personal revelation may direct us on how to apply doctrine to our lives, but not to dictate what is and isnt true

Just a personal experience here. I have two younger siblings. Both were anti social and not very exciting to be around. Over the last year, one came out as gay and the other as transgender. A sudden change occurred and both became very social and so fun to be around. My trans sibling struggled heavily with social anxiety, depression, and saw a therapist regularly. Since she came out, she has been so o credibly happy, has made tons of friends, and has gone to more social events I. The last month than her entire like previous. If you knew them growing up, it would be moronic to say that their transition and opening up did not make them 10x happier.

This experience does NOT give me or my family ANY authority to speak on behalf of God. Through this, my parents still hold true to the doctrine, they don’t pressure my siblings toward any gospel principles that conflict with their “identity”, but still hold a high standard of gospel living in the home. My mother, a school counselor that specialized in alternative high schools for less fortunate youth, joined a parents of LGBTQ children group where she participates and is involved in. She does not believe the way everyone else does, but wants to make sure she doesn’t drive her children away from the family (side note, they went to the bishop before hand and asked if doing this was in conflict with any of the temple recommend interview questions). This is an example of revelation from the prophet and personal revelation leading a family playing hand in hand. Nothing they did was in conflict with the church teachings and we have an incredibly happy family and the topic of religion doesn’t really come up, and when it does, there is a mutual understanding and respect of each others experience.

Your post is heartwarming. I'm glad your siblings have put their depression and social anxiety in the past, and that your family has been able to deal with their lifestyles without being broken apart.

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2 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Your post is heartwarming. I'm glad your siblings have put their depression and social anxiety in the past, and that your family has been able to deal with their lifestyles without being broken apart.

Thanks! (And just a wors of caution, people in the LGBTQ community hate the use of the word “lifestyle”)

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4 minutes ago, Fether said:

Thanks! (And just a wors of caution, people in the LGBTQ community hate the use of the word “lifestyle”)

Eh, it's out there. Most of the LGBTQ community I know don't really care. Most people aren't nearly as thin skinned as the media portrays them out to be. 

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4 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Most people aren't nearly as thin skinned as the media portrays them out to be. 

Mmmmm... This may be true, but as a denizen of the Land of Liquid Snowflakes, I can attest that many people do indeed have the skin of a pear.

EDIT: This is my 21,000th (surviving) post. Really? This? Bah.

Edited by Vort

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12 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

I think that the prophets prior to Nelson were kind of like reinforcers of the law where Nelson seems to be more solutions oriented to the problems of the day. Who's to say that God is sitting and waiting for the bretheren to ask about a solution for our lgbtq brothers and sisters.

If polygamy (one man + multiple women) is a celestial law. Whos to say a potential solution for a lesbian couple is to add a man to their relationship? They are now able to procreate and fullfill Gods plan, or two gay men need to add a woman? I understand the sexual orientation problem here but cmon lets start thinking of love oriented solutions instead of fearful punishments and condemnation.

The first sentence I don't think is well thought through. President Monson, previous to President Nelson, is the reason why we are experiencing the changes we are experiencing. These discussion that President Nelson has said have been in discussion for many years were discussions while President Monson was the prophet. A change in the Church, as we are experiencing under President Nelson didn't all of sudden occur in the short time from President Monson's death, to President Nelson being called, and then to the first general conference he presided over. I wouldn't even be surprised if a lot of what we are now experiencing were talked about during President Hinckley's time. I am positive President Monson is the reason for the change from Home Teaching to Ministering. What prophet has been highlighted for his ministering efforts? Yes, President Monson.

Polygamy is a practice, not a sexual orientation. Homosexual conduct has already been condemned by the Lord in the Old, New, and Modern Testaments. There has never been a time where homosexuality activity has been praised or practiced and condoned by God as his will. The natural man is an enemy to God and has been for a very long time and will continue to be an enemy to God.

All the prophets have done have been in honor of the first two great commandments.

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2 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Whenever a therapist tells me about their study-based opinions, I ask them for the long-term study that demonstrates the effectiveness of therapy.

 

Especially concerning addictions.    I do have to back the therapists that suggested - anyone that marries for money will suffer in comfort.

 

The Traveler

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1 hour ago, Vort said:

I can attest that many people do indeed have the skin of a pear.

Maybe. We like to call others snowflakes, but if someone says anything negative our religion, political beliefs, favorite band, college football team, we turn into sniveling babies. 

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I wonder if this could be the subject Elder Heber C. Kimball was referring too when he made this prophecy:

Quote

An army of Elders will be sent to the four quarters of the earth to search out the righteous and warn the wicked of what is coming. All kinds of religions will be started and miracles performed that will deceive the very elect if that were possible. Our sons and daughters must live pure lives so as to be prepared for what is coming.

After a while the Gentiles will gather by the thousands to this place, and Salt Lake City will be classed among the wicked cities of the world. A spirit of speculation and extravagance will take possession of the Saints, and the results will be financial bondage.

Persecution comes next and all true Latter-day Saints will be tested to the limit. Many will apostatize and others will be still not knowing what to do. Darkness will cover the earth and gross darkness the minds of the people. The judgments of God will be poured out on the wicked to the extent that our Elders from far and near will be called home, or in other words the gospel will be taken from the Gentiles and later on carried to the Jews.

The western boundary of the State of Missouri will be swept so clean of its inhabitants that as President Young tells us, when you return to that place, there will not be left so much as a yellow dog to wag his tail.

Before that day comes, however, the Saints will be put to a test that will try the integrity of the best of them. The pressure will become so great that the more righteous among them will cry unto the Lord day and night until deliverance comes.

Yes, we think we are secure here in the chambers of these everlasting hills, where we can close the doors of the canyons against mobs and persecutors, the wicked and the vile, who have always beset us with violence and robbery, but I want to say to you, my brethren, that the time is coming when we will be mixed up in these now peaceful valleys to that extent that it will be difficult to tell the face of a Saint from the face of an enemy against the people of God.

Then is the time to look out for the great sieve, for there will be a great shifting time, and many will fall. For I say unto you there is a test, a Test, a TEST coming.

This Church has before it many close places through which it will have to pass before the work of God is crowned with glory. The difficulties will be of such a character that the man or woman who does not possess a personal knowledge or witness will fall. If you have not got this testimony, you must live right and call upon the Lord, and cease not until you obtain it.

Remember these sayings: The time will come when no man or woman will be able to endure on borrowed light. Each will have to be guided by the light within themselves. If you do not have the knowledge that Jesus is the Christ, how can you stand? (Heber C. Kimball, First Counselor in the First Presidency, May 1868, in Deseret News, 23 May 1931; see also Conference Report, Oct. 1930, p. 58-59)

Especially taking into account what President Nelson said in April:

Quote

Our Savior and Redeemer, Jesus Christ, will perform some of His mightiest works between now and when He comes again. We will see miraculous indications that God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, preside over this Church in majesty and glory. But in coming days, it will not be possible to survive spiritually without the guiding, directing, comforting, and constant influence of the Holy Ghost. (President Nelson, Revelation for the Church, Revelation for Our Lives, April 2019.)

Having the Holy Ghost as our constant guide and protector is the key to navigating these questions and challenges. We can't do it alone and not be lost.

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9 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

I wonder if this could be the subject Elder Heber C. Kimball was referring too when he made this prophecy:

Especially taking into account what President Nelson said in April:

Having the Holy Ghost as our constant guide and protector is the key to navigating these questions and challenges. We can't do it alone and not be lost.

Holy wow, I think you may be right. The topic of how to deal with homosexuality and transgenderism has infiltrated the church membership and can be a hot topic.

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16 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

The doctrine can change too..if it comes from the prophet via God. We went from old testament to New testament to the Restoration, polygamy came and went, blacks and the priesthood....all were updates to the system.

I think that the prophets prior to Nelson were kind of like reinforcers of the law where Nelson seems to be more solutions oriented to the problems of the day. Who's to say that God is sitting and waiting for the bretheren to ask about a solution for our lgbtq brothers and sisters.

If polygamy (one man + multiple women) is a celestial law. Whos to say a potential solution for a lesbian couple is to add a man to their relationship? They are now able to procreate and fullfill Gods plan, or two gay men need to add a woman? I understand the sexual orientation problem here but cmon lets start thinking of love oriented solutions instead of fearful punishments and condemnation.

Interesting.  If a man is married to two women, those women aren't also married to each other, correct?  Then it would still violate the Law of Chastity.  The rest of your examples aren't doctrine, but policy.  Policies come and go.  

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22 hours ago, Anddenex said:

I have a friend who posted this on Facebook, and seeing the post specifies the author prays every Latter-day Saint will know (What I find intriguing/ironic are articles that talk about some form of mutual respect and understanding and yet still use the terms "Mormons") and come to understand.

Mods I understand if you feel this may need to be closed right away, I won't be offended. I am inclined to hear smarter point of views and expressions than myself regarding the post that a person who is praying that we as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will understand.

The commandments and covenants are among those things which constitute “every good thing.” President Nelson is not asking that everyone become familiar with cardiac practice, human flight and LGBT psychotherapy, but that everyone become familiar with spiritual laws and their application. He does not appeal to science to justify living the Gospel. The discovery and applications of cardiac, aeronautical and psychological laws are not so much the point, but the charity that your friend enjoins for alleviating suffering, and hopefully he can base his recommendations for a saintly life upon the testimony of Jesus and not science.

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6 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Interesting.  If a man is married to two women, those women aren't also married to each other, correct?  Then it would still violate the Law of Chastity.  The rest of your examples aren't doctrine, but policy.  Policies come and go.  

I am almost entirely sure that three ways were not  condoned when polygamy was active.

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20 minutes ago, Fether said:

I am almost entirely sure that three ways were not  condoned when polygamy was active.

Yeah.  That was a rhetorical question.    What do I know.  I'm only 640 days into this.

Edited by Grunt

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8 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Yeah.  That was a rhetorical question.    What do I know.  I'm only 640 days into this.

I got that, I only intended to add to what you were saying 👍

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1 hour ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

the time is coming when we will be mixed up in these now peaceful valleys to that extent that it will be difficult to tell the face of a Saint from the face of an enemy against the people of God.

This part of the prophecy is what concerns me the most. I remember when @The Folk Prophet (at least my mind is recalling him sharing this) shared this part of this quote and asked something to the nature of how would we not recognize the face of a Saint from an enemy of the people of God?

1) I think there will be some form of government law or policy (liberal) that there will be members of the Church who will report other members of the Church for breaking this law. It will be a corrupt law.

2) I wouldn't be surprised if this stems around the topic of this thread. We already have in some states pastors/preachers being sued or put in jail because they call sin, sin.

3) We already have this happening with specific websites created by members who hide their identity (cowardly). This, IMHO, is exactly what is prophesied of also. At church they appear to be a friend, a believer, but in reality they are creating a website that is enticing doubt among members. These people are leaving the Church and causing others through their doubt and weakness to leave the faith also. They point the finger of scorn while masking their identity. Right now they are by the Tree of Life, not in the Great and Spacious building, pointing secretly a finger of scorn.

4) Anyone who is actively participating in Church, who is trying to change the Church (horizontal revelation), because they want a Church that is their image. Overtly, they appear active and serviceable members but are trying to change it from within. I am reminded of a Tedx Talks of a member who said something to this nature, "We have an older generation of leaders. As these man die out, the younger generation that is more in the now will be able to change who receives the priesthood, homosexuality, etc..." That is the face of a saint who is an enemy against the people of God without recognizing it. They have a huge misunderstanding but teach it openly and truly believe this will occur. We may even see this from general authorities who are called (and then become caught up in their pride and seek to change the Church because of their position, not revelation).

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45 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

This part of the prophecy is what concerns me the most. I remember when @The Folk Prophet (at least my mind is recalling him sharing this) shared this part of this quote and asked something to the nature of how would we not recognize the face of a Saint from an enemy of the people of God?

1) I think there will be some form of government law or policy (liberal) that there will be members of the Church who will report other members of the Church for breaking this law. It will be a corrupt law.

2) I wouldn't be surprised if this stems around the topic of this thread. We already have in some states pastors/preachers being sued or put in jail because they call sin, sin.

3) We already have this happening with specific websites created by members who hide their identity (cowardly). This, IMHO, is exactly what is prophesied of also. At church they appear to be a friend, a believer, but in reality they are creating a website that is enticing doubt among members. These people are leaving the Church and causing others through their doubt and weakness to leave the faith also. They point the finger of scorn while masking their identity. Right now they are by the Tree of Life, not in the Great and Spacious building, pointing secretly a finger of scorn.

4) Anyone who is actively participating in Church, who is trying to change the Church (horizontal revelation), because they want a Church that is their image. Overtly, they appear active and serviceable members but are trying to change it from within. I am reminded of a Tedx Talks of a member who said something to this nature, "We have an older generation of leaders. As these man die out, the younger generation that is more in the now will be able to change who receives the priesthood, homosexuality, etc..." That is the face of a saint who is an enemy against the people of God without recognizing it. They have a huge misunderstanding but teach it openly and truly believe this will occur. We may even see this from general authorities who are called (and then become caught up in their pride and seek to change the Church because of their position, not revelation).

I also think that it's already happening from a literal standpoint. From about the early 1990s Salt Lake valley began changing so fast. That's when we moved from Salt Lake City to Logan. Every time we visited it felt changed- not in a good way. People were pouring in from California and other high rent states due to the low price of housing, freeways became crazier to drive on, the housing market started to go nuts. We had a tiny house to sell and felt a little sheepish asking $50K for it. Then a realtor friend took us aside and told us to ask $89K . We got asking price within a week. Now that little house would list at $400K at least.  I don't have anything against Californians per se. I know a whole bunch of wonderful people who moved to Utah from there. But many move-ins  brought with them an edginess and a faster more competetive pace than was felt in my hometown before that.

Then, as amazing as the Olympics were, suddenly Utah was on the map and was no longer a well kept secret- which resulted in more people coming with ever wordlier views and practices. I believe a lot of members of the Church in Utah started jumping on the bandwagon to capitalize on the new notoriety of our humble little state by increasing housing prices, building the ever bigger and grander mansions.  Pride!! Again, I love diversity  and don't have anything against outsiders but when they come in and gripe about the status quo and the dominant religion and start tearing apart the beautiful tapestry carefully woven together for 150 years or so, then this part of the prophecy comes true :" we will be mixed up in these now peaceful valleys".  As that mixing occured, wordliness increased and many members have been caught up in this quest for wealth and beauty and power that came with the interlopers that took sad advantage of the simple trust that many Utahns posessed.

The latest evidence I've seen is that the stake I grew up in consisted of about 12-13 very full active wards. It has now been condensed to about 6 or 7  neighborhood wards with other non-english speaking wards from all over the valley sharing the buildings. One building only has one ward meeting there.  It's almost unrecognizable anymore and very sad to me. There has been a lot of turnover as the primary generation of home builders in that area have died off and their children generally can't affod to buy their parents homes. The influx is all not members of the Church.  

Then the gay movement took hold and everything is scrambled. I know that many of my nieces and nephews left the church over that issue. My own sons left but over other things. Scary times!

Edited by carlimac

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5 minutes ago, carlimac said:

The latest evidence I've seen is that the stake I grew up in consisted of about 12-13 very full active wards. It has now been condensed to about 6 or 7  neighborhood wards with other non-english speaking wards from all over the valley sharing the buildings. One building only has one ward meeting there.  It's almost unrecognizable anymore and very sad to me. There has been a lot of turnover as the primary generation of home builders in that area have died off and their children generally can't affod to buy their parents homes. The influx is all not members of the Church.  

Your analysis is spot on-Utah is going through a huge change right now and with it, the church is changing.

In fairness, all religions are declining, so the LDS church isn't alone. 

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32 minutes ago, carlimac said:

Then, as amazing as the Olympics were, suddenly Utah was on the map and was no longer a well kept secret- which resulted in more people coming with ever wordlier views and practices.

As a non-Utahn, I could never understand why those in Utah were all so eager for the Olympics. Even my own relatives who lived there seemed excited at the prospect. I was shaking my head in disbelief. Looks like they got what they wanted. So is Utah better off for it? Maybe if your measure for "better off" is the quality of top-end ski resorts. Otherwise, I think not.

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5 minutes ago, Vort said:

As a non-Utahn, I could never understand why those in Utah were all so eager for the Olympics. Even my own relatives who lived there seemed excited at the prospect. I was shaking my head in disbelief. Looks like they got what they wanted. So is Utah better off for it? Maybe if your measure for "better off" is the quality of top-end ski resorts. Otherwise, I think not.

When I lived up north there was some chatter about the Olympics coming to Boston. I hoped and prayed that never happened for reasons you and @carlimac stated. 

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40 minutes ago, Vort said:

As a non-Utahn, I could never understand why those in Utah were all so eager for the Olympics. Even my own relatives who lived there seemed excited at the prospect. I was shaking my head in disbelief. Looks like they got what they wanted. So is Utah better off for it? Maybe if your measure for "better off" is the quality of top-end ski resorts. Otherwise, I think not.

Six weeks of overtime!

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18 hours ago, Vort said:

As a non-Utahn, I could never understand why those in Utah were all so eager for the Olympics. Even my own relatives who lived there seemed excited at the prospect. I was shaking my head in disbelief. Looks like they got what they wanted. So is Utah better off for it? Maybe if your measure for "better off" is the quality of top-end ski resorts. Otherwise, I think not.

I was here in Utah for the Olympics.  I did not talk to anyone that did not have their opinions of Utah and the Church changed for the better - significantly.  I have a brother that was quite high up in the hosting organization that is still communicating with officials from all over the world.  There were many benefits that include getting visas for missionaries much more easier.   Something few know is that the church has many corporations - at least one for every country where the church has legal members.  The church does not talk a lot about legal issues with missionaries and members in foreign countries but I understand that the Utah Olympics opened many doors (both official and unofficial) for the church and missionaries - also for tithing and fast offerings.  Just because the church does not publish (brag) a lot about progress does not mean that significant progress is not taking place.  The church was also very involved behind the scenes with the Utah Olympics - I have not heard any official statement from the church that the Utah Olympics was in any way detrimental.  

I do not know where you and @MormonGator got the impression the Utah Olympics was so problematic - unless you have been reading the Salt Lake Tribune.  As a side note - Snowbird is currently making significant investment in expanding one of the world's largest and most diverse ski resorts - independent of any future Olympic possibilities.

 

The Traveler

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23 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I was here in Utah for the Olympics.  I did not talk to anyone that did not have their opinions of Utah and the Church changed for the better - significantly.  I have a brother that was quite high up in the hosting organization that is still communicating with officials from all over the world.  There were many benefits that include getting visas for missionaries much more easier.   Something few know is that the church has many corporations - at least one for every country where the church has legal members.  The church does not talk a lot about legal issues with missionaries and members in foreign countries but I understand that the Utah Olympics opened many doors (both official and unofficial) for the church and missionaries - also for tithing and fast offerings.  Just because the church does not publish (brag) a lot about progress does not mean that significant progress is not taking place.  The church was also very involved behind the scenes with the Utah Olympics - I have not heard any official statement from the church that the Utah Olympics was in any way detrimental.  

I do not know where you and @MormonGator got the impression the Utah Olympics was so problematic - unless you have been reading the Salt Lake Tribune.  As a side note - Snowbird is currently making significant investment in expanding one of the world's largest and most diverse ski resorts - independent of any future Olympic possibilities.

 

The Traveler

Generally speaking, there are a TON of negatives that hosting the Olympics brings to your community. 

http://olympics.time.com/2012/07/26/londons-loss-why-hosting-the-olympics-is-bad-business/

https://nationalpost.com/sports/olympics/from-unpaid-workers-to-barren-arenas-rios-olympic-legacy-has-quickly-become-one-of-regret

https://www.citymetric.com/skylines/here-are-five-good-reasons-not-host-olympic-games-1740

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/markets-economy/092416/what-economic-impact-hosting-olympics.asp

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58 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I was here in Utah for the Olympics.  I did not talk to anyone that did not have their opinions of Utah and the Church changed for the better - significantly.  I have a brother that was quite high up in the hosting organization that is still communicating with officials from all over the world.  There were many benefits that include getting visas for missionaries much more easier.   Something few know is that the church has many corporations - at least one for every country where the church has legal members.  The church does not talk a lot about legal issues with missionaries and members in foreign countries but I understand that the Utah Olympics opened many doors (both official and unofficial) for the church and missionaries - also for tithing and fast offerings.  Just because the church does not publish (brag) a lot about progress does not mean that significant progress is not taking place.  The church was also very involved behind the scenes with the Utah Olympics - I have not heard any official statement from the church that the Utah Olympics was in any way detrimental.

I hope you are right.

Quote

I do not know where you and @MormonGator got the impression the Utah Olympics was so problematic - unless you have been reading the Salt Lake Tribune.

As far as I could tell, the SL Tribulation was the primary cheerleader for the Winter Games. I haven't read that filthy stinking worthless rag in some years now, so maybe they've changed sides. But it's all the Paradise Lost Syndrome. How many people of differing moral values were made aware of Utah and have moved in? Is Utah in better social shape now than it was twenty years ago, pre-Olympics? When I go to Utah now, I see lots more people than thirty years ago (when I last lived in Utah), and also lots more perversions and worldliness. How much of that is due to the Olympic Games, how much to the inevitable creep of filthiness, and how much to my own lack of seeing what was really there all along? I don't know. But if I had had my druthers, the Olympic Games would never have besmirched the state of Utah and its good people.

But I don't claim any special insight into this issue. Quite the opposite. If Church leadership really did pursue this as a desirable thing, then I support them in that. But I cannot see that it has done Utah any long-lasting good, unless (as I suggested before) you think high-end ski resorts qualify as a long-lasting good.

Edited by Vort

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