Comical manufactured outrage at BYU

[Vort]

Who would ever have suspected that public displays of homosexual affection are inappropriate at BYU, just because homosexual activity is recognized as sinful by BYU's sponsoring institution? (Besides every rational human being, I mean.)

The BYU students beating their breasts about the recent letter clarifying that, yes, romantic homosexual activity is in fact contrary to BYU standards, are hypocrites in the purest etymological sense. Why such people go to BYU is a mystery, unless they're just happy to accept BYU's heavy tithing fund subsidy for the cost of school. Why such people are allowed to remain students at BYU is a much bigger mystery, and one I wish would immediately go away. There are too many faithful young Latter-day Saints, young men and women who would love to attend BYU but who can't because there is not enough room for everyone, to allow attendance by malcontents and other students (and faculty!) who openly disbelieve and work against the Church's aims.

I'm sure the Board of Trustees will be moved by my impassioned argument and immediately rectify this situation. If there's one thing BYU is good at, it's keeping their message unmistakably crystal clear.

[NeedleinA]

12 minutes ago, Vort said:

the recent letter

Thanks for posting the link @Vort. Here is copy of the letter, just in case there is a linking issue at a later date.
I also enjoyed this tweet from someone in the comment section.

[Just_A_Guy]

Somehow I doubt Professor Brau’s next class session is going to wind up on YouTube.

[NeuroTypical]

8 hours ago, Vort said:

The BYU students beating their breasts about the recent letter clarifying that, yes, romantic homosexual activity is in fact contrary to BYU standards, are hypocrites in the purest etymological sense.

Channeling my inner hormone-ridden-college-kid-with-still-developing-brain for a moment:  You're right, but that's not the point.   The point is, can same sex couples do what heterosexual couples do on campus?  And the latest letter still doesn't answer that question.  Lots of stuff are contrary to BYU standards that don't get you hauled in front of the honors board (or whatever it's called).

This'll stay a thing until BYU issues a one-sentence statement.  They have to pick one.

* Romantic behavior that doesn't get heterosexual student couples in trouble, won't get homosexual student couples in trouble either. 
or
* Romantic behavior that doesn't get heterosexual student couples in trouble, will get homosexual student couples in trouble. 

/HRCKWSDB off

Edited March 5, 2020 by NeuroTypical

[Guest MormonGator]

If you go to BYU than you should be ready to play by their rules and accept the honor code. If you don't like that, no one is forcing you to go to BYU.

I think the more troubling issue should be that students are protesting at all. This shows a shift in the thinking of the young people in the church. This probably wouldn't have happened twenty-thirty years ago. It might be a harbinger for what is to come. 

Edited March 5, 2020 by MormonGator

[Guest Scott]

I suspected that something like this was coming and that there would be a clarification.

It still begs the question as to why did BYU change the honor code in the first place?  I seemed perfectly clear before the change.

[Just_A_Guy]

32 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Channeling my inner hormone-ridden-college-kid-with-still-developing-brain for a moment:  You're right, but that's not the point.   The point is, can same sex couples do what heterosexual couples do on campus?  And the latest letter still doesn't answer that question.  Lots of stuff are contrary to BYU standards that don't get you hauled in front of the honors board (or whatever it's called).

This'll stay a thing until BYU issues a one-sentence statement.  They have to pick one.

* Romantic behavior doesn't get heterosexual student couples in trouble, won't get homosexual student couples in trouble either. 
or
* Romantic behavior doesn't get heterosexual student couples in trouble, will get homosexual student couples in trouble. 

/HRCKWSDB off

The problem here IMHO is that so many people are obsessing about what the HCO will let them do, rather than considering what is right and/or what the Lord wants them to do.  

Gay displays of physical affection are wrong—if not inherently sinful as a per se violation of chastity, than certainly wrong as a colossally reckless step in the direction of unchaste behavior and an insensitive act of toying with and deliberately cultivating human emotions and desires that must at some point be reined in/terminated.   This didn’t suddenly change just because some bureaucrats in the HCO manifested their own spinelessness/treachery.

BYU and/or the Church condemns a lot of behaviors that many (most?) students participate in anyways.  While some gay BYU students may sincerely fear HCO retribution based on past events (and I note that Professor Brau had no problem indulging in a little turnabout when he gloated about the possibility of siccing the HCO on conservative students who admonished gay students for unvirtuous behavior)—I daresay the sticking point for most of these protestors isn’t the threat of administrative retribution.  They’re ticked off that BYU is still in the business of making statements about right and wrong, particularly on matters of sexual behavior.  They thought they had the camel’s nose well and truly into the tent.

Edited March 5, 2020 by Just_A_Guy

[Colirio]

1 minute ago, Just_A_Guy said:

  They thought they had the camel’s nose well and truly into the tent.

This pretty much sums up the entire political and moral landscape of the last few years. (Decades?) 
 

[Fether]

16 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

The problem here IMHO is that so many people are obsessing about what the HCO will let them do, rather than considering what is right and/or what the Lord wants them to do.  

I would imagine all of these protestors believe strongly that God is ok with their behaviors and that it’s the HCO and the church that have it wrong.

they simply don’t believe this is the true church. 

[Just_A_Guy]

22 minutes ago, Fether said:

I would imagine all of these protestors believe strongly that God is ok with their behaviors . . .

So inconvenient, to be reminded that one’s pet lion is neither “safe” nor tame.

Edited March 5, 2020 by Just_A_Guy

[NeuroTypical]

21 minutes ago, Fether said:

I would imagine all of these protestors believe strongly that God is ok with their behaviors and that it’s the HCO and the church that have it wrong.

they simply don’t believe this is the true church. 

For some of them, maybe.  For others, the grey matter hasn't put forth the effort yet to reach such a belief.  It's a simple "I wanna" reflex, no beliefs necessary.

Remember folks, college kids.  Kind of like children, except with credit cards.

[Grunt]

1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

If you go to BYU than you should be ready to play by their rules and accept the honor code. If you don't like that, no one is forcing you to go to BYU.

I think the more troubling issue should be that students are protesting at all. This shows a shift in the thinking of the young people in the church. This probably wouldn't have happened twenty-thirty years ago. It might be a harbinger for what is to come. 

I think it shows a shift in thinking about children in general.  30 years ago students may not have gone to a church with views at odds to their own, particularly when tuition rates weren't as crazy as they are now..  Just a quick stroll through twitter shows MANY students choose BYU for the discounted tuition.  Additionally, it shows that MANY of the people that protest on BYU campus aren't even students.

[NeedleinA]

Desert News:

Quote

LGBTQ BYU students and supporters held an impromptu campus rally Wednesday afternoon in Brigham Square between the Wilkinson Student Center and the library. More than 160 people marched in a large circle and another 75 or so stood on stairs holding signs. They chanted “No more fear,” “Rise and shout the gays are out” and “Gay rights.”

Without a little perspective, the news might lead one to believe that BYU is in open rebellion now days, which is not the case.
Of the 33,511 daytime students at BYU, 250ish were out protesting = <1% of the student body.

This is another case of the 'loud' tip of the tail trying to wag the 'silent' dog.

The Family A Proclamation to the World still holds strong.

[NeedleinA]

12 minutes ago, Grunt said:

 Additionally, it shows that MANY of the people that protest on BYU campus aren't even students.

This has repeatedly been the case too.

[Just_A_Guy]

27 minutes ago, Grunt said:

I think it shows a shift in thinking about children in general.  

There’s merit to yours and @MormonGator’s points, but it’s also easy to fall into the trap of thinking that today’s student protests are a new thing.

I was at BYU when Operation Iraqi Freedom was launched.  I remember the anti-war protests.  I’m pretty sure were protests when the September Six thing went down; and if Ernest Wilkinson ran such a tight ship that no one at BYU dared launch any protests during the Vietnam War—there surely wasn’t unanimity on the issue.

Protests and sniping happen, the disaffected eventually self-select their way out of the Church, and the caravan marches on.  Thus it has ever been, and thus it will continue to be for the foreseeable future.  

Edited March 5, 2020 by Just_A_Guy

[Guest MormonGator]

6 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

 

I was at BYU when Operation Iraqi Freedom was launched. 

Don’t you mean the Vietnam war? 

[NeedleinA]

6 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

 disaffected eventually self-select their way out of the Church, and the caravan marches on.  Thus it has ever been, and thus it will continue to be for the foreseeable future.  

True as can be.

[Vort]

2 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Channeling my inner hormone-ridden-college-kid-with-still-developing-brain for a moment:  You're right, but that's not the point.   The point is, can same sex couples do what heterosexual couples do on campus?  And the latest letter still doesn't answer that question.  Lots of stuff are contrary to BYU standards that don't get you hauled in front of the honors board (or whatever it's called).

This'll stay a thing until BYU issues a one-sentence statement.  They have to pick one.

* Romantic behavior that doesn't get heterosexual student couples in trouble, won't get homosexual student couples in trouble either. 
or
* Romantic behavior that doesn't get heterosexual student couples in trouble, will get homosexual student couples in trouble. 

/HRCKWSDB off

This has already been answered clearly:

[Vort]

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

For some of them, maybe.  For others, the grey matter hasn't put forth the effort yet to reach such a belief.  It's a simple "I wanna" reflex, no beliefs necessary.

Remember folks, college kids.  Kind of like children, except with credit cards.

No, I disagree. I clearly remember being a college student. (It wasn't all that long ago.)

Was I stupid? Yep.

Did I do boneheaded things? Yep.

Did I know right from wrong and realize at the time I made certain decisions that I was deciding wrongly? Yep.

I have a relative, almost 40 years old, who continues making the same biased, anti-LDS choices in her life. Her brain is about as fully developed as it's going to get. She and her husband simply want to bag on the Church, its leaders and members. They were doing it at 20, they're doing it now, and they'll be doing it at 60.

So no, I don't buy the excuse of "their brains aren't developed!" None of our brains are as developed as they should be, as they would have been had we made better choices along the way. We're still agents. We still get to choose our path, and we still get to receive ALL the consequences of those acts. This includes college students with stupid, rebellious brains.

[Vort]

1 hour ago, Fether said:

I would imagine all of these protestors believe strongly that God is ok with their behaviors and that it’s the HCO and the church that have it wrong.

they simply don’t believe this is the true church. 

Then like anyone with even a modicum of integrity, they should not attend BYU, but pursue their education elsewhere. In going to BYU and holding, even arguing in favor of, such ideals, they show themselves openly to be hypocrites.

[Guest MormonGator]

Would students be sanctioned/punished for protesting against things like the Iraq War? Just curious, nothing more. 

[Guest Scott]

9 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Would students be sanctioned/punished for protesting against things like the Iraq War? Just curious, nothing more. 

Students are allowed to organize protest or rallies at BYU, but they have to get approval.    

https://policy.byu.edu/view/index.php?p=101

They could potentially get some form of punishment if the protest wasn't approved.

There was an approved protest against Dick Cheney's visit to BYU during the latest Iraq War.    Students and faculty both participated.    

Generally such protest are allowed/approved, if they are peaceful.    Generally the rules are that there are no shouting, profanity, or attacks on the Church.   You also have to stay modestly dressed.  

[Vort]

Just now, Scott said:

Students are allowed to organize protest or rallies at BYU, but they have to get approval.    

https://policy.byu.edu/view/index.php?p=101

They could potentially get some form of punishment if the protest wasn't approved.

There was an approved protest against Dick Cheney's visit to BYU during the latest Iraq War.    Students and faculty both participated.    

Generally such protest are allowed/approved, if they are peaceful.    Generally the rules are that there are no shouting, profanity, or attacks on the Church.   You also have to stay modestly dressed.  

BYU allowing protests against political actions or figures? Yep, I get it.

BYU allowing protests against Church doctrine? Nope, I don't get it.

[Guest MormonGator]

7 minutes ago, Scott said:

Students are allowed to organize protest or rallies at BYU, but they have to get approval.    

https://policy.byu.edu/view/index.php?p=101

They could potentially get some form of punishment if the protest wasn't approved.

There was an approved protest against Dick Cheney's visit to BYU during the latest Iraq War.    Students and faculty both participated.    

Generally such protest are allowed/approved, if they are peaceful.    Generally the rules are that there are no shouting, profanity, or attacks on the Church.   You also have to stay modestly dressed.  

Thanks bud!

[NeuroTypical]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

This has already been answered clearly:

[Again, turning on idiot self-absorbed college brain]: Not clear at all.  I don't care if something is "compatible with principles" or not, I only care if they'll let me do it or not.  The way it's phrased right now tells me that the mommies of the world will cluck their tongues and look disapprovingly at me, but otherwise there's no negative consequence, so I'm ok to do what I feel.  And if I end up getting hauled in front of the honor code cops, it's their fault for not making it clear enough.[/ISCB off]

[And please don't mistake my ability to channel idiocy, means I'm an idiot.  This is obviously the wrong (tm) way to approach things.  It's just that @Vort is figuring people are lying about not knowing this stuff, but there's a second option - some of them are just idiots - no lying necessary.]

 

1 hour ago, Vort said:

I clearly remember being a college student. (It wasn't all that long ago.)

Was I stupid? Yep.

Did I do boneheaded things? Yep.

Did I know right from wrong and realize at the time I made certain decisions that I was deciding wrongly? Yep.

 

Heh.  You obviously were, and had, a better class of peer than many of the folks I hung with.  Some of my peers were case studies in denial, rationalization, and plain old lack of thought.  Yeah, the light of Christ is present in everyone, but a lot of kids need a lot of help to learn to recognize that light (or stop the habit of automatically tuning it out).  Yeah, for many, that happened in childhood.  But I saw that growth starting in college for some, and for others, it hadn't started by graduation.

I knew a girl who believed abortion should be legal up to the first birthday - her reasoning was that she might decide it was too hard.  (She also went from her BigMac, to protesting a greek food truck for murdering pigs.)

I knew a guy who phrased his life philosophy as "have fun in ok ways".   

I knew someone running with Tongan gangs who argued with me for a full month about how the filter on a cigarette "took out all the bad stuff so there's no cancer".  (He did help me see the benefits of being "courted out" of that gang by being beaten half to death, nothing short of such an event would have crowbarred the fact into his thick skull.)

These folks all went on to grow the *beep* up, get married, have kids, and they're not idiots any more, as far as I can tell.  But boy-howdy, back in the day...

Here's a video of a neuron dying.  https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ExhaustedImpracticalDassie-mobile.mp4  

 

Edited March 5, 2020 by NeuroTypical