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Emmanuel Goldstein

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1 hour ago, person0 said:

I will happily keep my distance, but I'd rather just wait to go back until we aren't expected to wear masks.

The average age of my ward is 65+ (not an insult, honest statement). If they don't wear masks or practice social distancing, it could wipe them all out. Again, not being funny-I don't want them to get sick. I think the church understands this and wants them to be safe as well. 

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6 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

We all know you're really waiting for the change in the gun policy.

In my ward, the local policy has been somewhere between "If I don't see it, it's not a problem", and "I'm going to call half a dozen brethren to be the armed patrol".  Depending on the Bishop.

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9 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

In my ward, the local policy has been somewhere between "If I don't see it, it's not a problem", and "I'm going to call half a dozen brethren to be the armed patrol".  Depending on the Bishop.

Can the bishop force you to wear a mask or not carry a gun? Or is that one where he has to follow church policy to the letter? 

Curious, nothing more. 

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It's the same deal as any private property.  If the bishop doesn't' want you there, he asks you to leave, and if you don't they call the authorities and have you trespassed, then arrested if you still don't leave.   How private property rights get enforced, is left up to individual bishops.  Of course, if you've decided to carry concealed in violation of church policy, unless God is going to reveal your hidden gun to the Bishop, he wouldn't know about it in the first place.

Regarding masks, if some bishop was just fine with people not wearing masks in an area that still has COVID-19 transmission happening, then he's not following church policy, and he'd probably be in hot water. 

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1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

I was thoroughly unimpressed by this announcement.

Yeah, we kinda knew that.

 

It is a deliberately vague set of guidelines. It wasn't intended to be a map of how to open church meetings, but a guide to work within local guidance and regulations. The letter I got had a little more guidance than what was in the newsroom.

Essentially, if your local health guidelines limit you to less than 100 people, work within the phase 1 guidance. Otherwise work within phase 2.

What each stake and ward actually implements will vary.

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1 hour ago, MarginOfError said:

It is a deliberately vague set of guidelines

In a top down Church, more than anything I think it was very public permission from the top for individual areas (within local guidelines) to start resuming public church meetings. In a top down church, the top has to speak so everyone knows their local authorities have permission to invite people back to church.

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11 hours ago, person0 said:

I will happily keep my distance, but I'd rather just wait to go back until we aren't expected to wear masks.

So you want to carry a gun to church in case you have have to protect yourself, family, and ward members, but you won't wear a mask to protect yourself, family, and ward members?

Why not?  Serious question.  I'm really curious about this.

Edited by Scott

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4 hours ago, Scott said:

So you want to carry a gun to church in case you have have to protect yourself, family, and ward members, but you won't wear a mask to protect yourself, family, and ward members?

Why not?  Serious question.  I'm really curious about this.

I don't think that was meant in a "I object to mask wearing" kind of way.  More like a "I would be physically uncomfortable wearing a mask for that long."

I'm not looking forward to wearing a mask that long either.  I will do it, but I won't pretend to enjoy it.

Then again, depending on what my ward decides to do,  I may just refuse to go.  We have a few yahoos in our ward that are adamant this is all a conspiracy, and I can see them deliberately not wearing masks and touching every surface in sight just to make a point. Hopefully I'll be able to talk my bishopric into a moderate approach to reopening (one has already floated the idea that we could fully open right now if we wanted to).

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Because many members are extreme in being Conservatives, I can see this going badly in some areas.  Of course, many of the big centers that have gotten out were because of churches, soooo...

I expect many members will have the idea it can't happen to them, just like many of the churches and there will be some wards that will open far before they should.  The church in many ways thus far has been lucky, but with the push to start things, I'm not so sure it will go well.

As an individual in the high risk category, until I can get tested for antibodies (I may have had this already, but I don't know) and it shows I already had it, or they get a vaccine or a good way to treat it, even if my local leaders decide to resume meetings, I think I'll stay home.  I fully expect they will start meetings with NO regard to those who are vulnerable and could care less if people like me die off anyways...soooo...

I have faith, but I also realize science is not something you just toss in the back of the trash and ignore.  Faith is good, but if you totally disregard what you can do, sometimes the Lord let's what is going to happen...happen.  My area is still heating up to a degree, and getting hotter right now, but even as the deaths and cases are rising in my area these days, I expect the more conservative leaders to start meetings, even as the situation gets worse than it was when the meetings were stopped.

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For a more extensive letter on this (PDF format)

Safely return to church meetings activities guidelines 2020

Some of the people in my area have been pushing HARD to reopen the church meetings, this sounds like an answer to what they've been pushing for.  I'm not that impressed by most of them in their desire on this.

My own area has about 10X the amount of cases per day that they had when the stay at home orders came out (this includes the larger city/university town nearby as well).  The university town I have nearby (which I do go to frequently, I admit) has several hundred cases going on and still increasing.  My own county is lucky, and has only had 1 death thus far, but cases are still increasing (probably due to the proximity to the larger town) and I would not feel comfortable returning to church.

The PDF and article do NOT actually make me feel any assurances and actually make me have the feeling that (considering the opening up of our state) leaders will push to start meetings, even as cases rise, and disallow at home sacrament. 

An article which probably should make people feel happier actually makes me feel far more fearful and sad than anything else.  People should not be afraid to go to church.

This article make me think that they are going to put me in that situation.

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18 hours ago, MormonGator said:

The average age of my ward is 65+ (not an insult, honest statement). If they don't wear masks or practice social distancing, it could wipe them all out. Again, not being funny-I don't want them to get sick. I think the church understands this and wants them to be safe as well. 

The average age of my ward is 35.  I wouldn't be surprised if our phase 1 is - anybody with more than 5 children can hold sacrament at home, the rest should be less than 100.

Edited by anatess2

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15 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Of course, if you've decided to carry concealed in violation of church policy, unless God is going to reveal your hidden gun to the Bishop, he wouldn't know about it in the first place.

My advice to anyone that is determined to carry to church - do not put your pistol in your back pocket - if it went off accidentally you will blow your brains out.  😉

 

The Traveler

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1 hour ago, mirkwood said:

Guns scare me.  So do masks.  People with guns and masks really scare me.

What scares me are people that do not know (cannot make up their mind) what they are doing - especially if they think they are in charge - after that, everything else is just dressing.

People that cannot control their anger are a very close second.  Put these together with the first and I do not even want to watch.  I just leave.

People that sit in the background carefully watching make me nervous.  But sometimes they are your best bet when things go upside down.

Hmmmmm the more I think about all this - I have a couple of grandkids, that when they get real quiet - that scares me too.   I am likely different - I am not afraid of the dark and prefer not being in the open - both figuratively and physically.  Maybe it applies to my military and hunting experiences and defensive driving (especially on a bicycle) but I like to see and know a clear path out (cover) - prefer more than one.

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler

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19 hours ago, MormonGator said:

The average age of my ward is 65+ (not an insult, honest statement). If they don't wear masks or practice social distancing, it could wipe them all out. Again, not being funny-I don't want them to get sick. I think the church understands this and wants them to be safe as well. 

I want them to be safe too.  Even if we open church back up, it may be best to invite our older members to remain at home for a while, unless they choose to accept the risk.  I don't want people to get sick, I would just rather continue to have our private sacrament meeting and primary class that we have been having at home each Sunday than to return to Church with stringent requirements.

9 hours ago, Scott said:

So you want to carry a gun to church in case you have have to protect yourself, family, and ward members, but you won't wear a mask to protect yourself, family, and ward members?

Why not?  Serious question.  I'm really curious about this.

A gun protects against a potential threat of known serious severity.  Current guidelines protect against a known threat of potentially serious severity.

I am not really concerned if someone in my family contracts COVID-19, even if it causes them to die.  Given all the information available to me, it is a risk I am willing to take, especially for our demographics.  I don't believe that masks are truly effective in preventing the spread of the virus, particularly because my children play with them and take them off and I and my wife end up touching our face even more as we adjust the masks continually to try and alleviate the discomfort of wearing them.

As far as other people are concerned; I will gladly keep my distance, as I said before; however, if you choose to shake my hand, come within six feet of me, not wash your hands appropriately, that is not on me at all.  If you are at risk and choose to put yourself in a risky situation, that is not my fault.

Because of the complications of managing additional restrictions beyond distancing from others, I would prefer to wait to return to church services after such restrictions are no longer required.

As a side note, the inherent flaw in your question is that you are assuming I would return to church and not follow restrictions or guidelines put in place by the Church, when in fact, I simply stated that "I would rather wait" until after the restrictions are lifted.  Just the same as I don't carry in church, despite the fact that I would much rather do so.  I don't break the first rule you mentioned, why would you assume I would break the second?

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38 minutes ago, person0 said:

As a side note, the inherent flaw in your question is that you are assuming I would return to church and not follow restrictions or guidelines put in place by the Church, when in fact, I simply stated that "I would rather wait" until after the restrictions are lifted.  Just the same as I don't carry in church, despite the fact that I would much rather do so.  I don't break the first rule you mentioned, why would you assume I would break the second?

I don't assume you would break the rules; I was just asking.   I was curious about it.  Thanks for answering.  

Edited by Scott

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46 minutes ago, Traveler said:

People that sit in the background carefully watching make me nervous.  But sometimes they are your best bet when things go upside down.

Well...ummmm...I would never do that in my ward.

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