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This year is starting out badly.  I expected it to be so but with different players igniting the fuses.  I thought that liberals would take down our capitol but it turns out to be the conservatives.   Apparently what has happening really has not been about politics.  I am convinced a solution will not come from a political party or political leadership.

 

The Traveler

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My favorite online arguing buddy and I had to take a break from verbally battling each other last year.  He showed back up yesterday, after I talked about once you throw a rock, start a fire, trespass, or vandalize, you lose my sympathy and support. Even if your message and opinions might be something that resonates strongly with me.  He came back to agree with a notion I had expressed:

Isn't it about time we all said 'enough'?

Perhaps folks' appetite for unrest and change-at-whatever-cost and all that, is waning.  Perhaps we can all agree that protesting good, until a line is crossed.

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Yesterday's events really made me take a hard look at my own political views. No, I'm not about to take a 180 on parties, my values are the same. But my values do run into conservatish lines of thinking, and I had to wonder if I could associate with such people as yesterday.

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You are correct, they have no solution. It is foolishness to think that any political party will align with the Lord's teachings in the short time before he comes again, or even in the near future. The hate and violence that is being spewed from both sides will eventually become normal, and will start to spill over into religion rather than just politics. The persecution of Christians, and members of the church, will take place in this country. The time is coming when everyone will have to chose between the Lord's side, and their political ideology.

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2 hours ago, Traveler said:

...but it turns out to be the conservatives.   

Maybe not.

https://www.nowlivenews.com/2021/01/07/viking-who-stormed-the-capitol-building-previously-photographed-at-blm-rally-wearin/

Quote

We have now confirmed that the storming of the Capitol Building was initiated by left-wing provocateurs who met with Capitol Police yesterday and planned the event.

https://america-latest-news.com/john-sullivan-a-radical-left-wing-activist-and-founder-of-insurgence-usa-filmed-trump-supporters-death/

Quote

John Sullivan A Radical Left-wing Activist And Founder Of Insurgence USA Filmed Trump Supporters Death...

Sullivan’s appearance at the siege of the Capitol building raises eyebrows considering he was arrested in July for his part in riots and protests all across Salt Lake City.

Edited by Carborendum

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We have now confirmed that the storming of the Capitol Building was initiated by left-wing provocateurs who met with Capitol Police yesterday and planned the event.

 

So, is there any real original source to this claim? I've heard rumors, but no one has shown actual and confirmed proof.

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That video of the police opening the barriers doesn't look like rumor to me. That is one hot piece of evidence. But then YIKES! maybe they thought they were letting Trump supporters in. Either way, some of those cops need to find a different job- soon!!

 

Edit. Now the video is gone. And Facebook wouldn't let me post it. 🤔

 

Edited by carlimac

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2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

https://www.news18.com/news/buzz/us-capitol-violence-deer-suit-man-viral-3255641.html

It seems Viking hat man has been identified.  He's from Arizona, probably associated with QAnon, not BLM.

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Some of us spent 4 years warning against exactly this. I am outraged and horrified, but not the least bit surprised by what happened yesterday. 

Also, here's the full picture of Jake Angeli from the AZ BLM rally. He was there as a counter-protestor.

 

20210107_144638.jpg

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This does not mean that we agree with all that is done with the force of law. It means that we obey the current law and use peaceful means to change it. It also means that we peacefully accept the results of elections. We will not participate in the violence threatened by those disappointed with the outcome. In a democratic society we always have the opportunity and the duty to persist peacefully until the next election.

  -- Dallin H. Oaks, Love Your Enemies, Oct 2020 General Conference.

Again...

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In a democratic society we always have the opportunity and the duty to persist peacefully until the next election.

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5 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

In a democratic society we always have the opportunity and the duty to persist peacefully until the next election.

I am wondering if there will be a next time.  If they make more States to get more Senators and possibly more House Members, pack the Supreme Court with more Judges and continue to ignore voter laws that secure our elections in some States you are likely going to lose every time without divine intervention.

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3 hours ago, Still_Small_Voice said:

I am wondering if there will be a next time.  If they make more States to get more Senators and possibly more House Members, pack the Supreme Court with more Judges and continue to ignore voter laws that secure our elections in some States you are likely going to lose every time without divine intervention.

I feel like I have heard this sentiment from someone after every election. Obama was the anti christ and a Muslim born in Africa. Trump was the Hitler who was made President via Russia and was going to exterminate all non-whites. Biden is the old guy that is going to die of old age and make way for Kamala who will usher in socialism and destroy America.
 

Here is a radical idea... maybe nothing is going to happen?

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There's been a lot of talk about "what would have happened" if the protestors had been liberals, not conservatives. The supposition is that it would have been a bloodbath.

I've never been very impressed by people who argue on the basis of what they say "would have happened" in some totally hypothetical scenario. As a kid, I was always having my nose rubbed in what I supposedly "would have done" if <blah blah blah> had happened. It's a lazy way to argue: since <blah blah blah> didn't happen, there's no way to test the assertion, and no way to refute it.

It would make some sense if they had cited what I did do in some analogous situation which really did happen - but why not just have a go at me for that, instead of building a hypothetical case based on something that didn't happen? But the argument was always carried by the strength of the dirty looks the accuser could give, and how anxious the listeners were to enjoy a feeling of righteous disgust (against me).

If Trump had won the election and Biden supporters had stormed the capitol, we really don't know what what would have happened. Bearing in mind how anxious everyone is to "appear woke", I wouldn't be surprised if they'd get a free pass. But that's speculation. To find out, we would need to visit a parallel universe.

Edited by Jamie123

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17 hours ago, Godless said:

Some of us spent 4 years warning against exactly this. I am outraged and horrified, but not the least bit surprised by what happened yesterday. 

Also, here's the full picture of Jake Angeli from the AZ BLM rally. He was there as a counter-protestor.

 

20210107_144638.jpg

Even the crazy Washington Times retracted their article that Antifa was in the crowd. Many of the photos taken are of well know trumpers/right wing extremist. It is what it is. 
 

What makes this more shocking, in my opinion, is this was a direct assault on one of our 3 constitutional branches of government. No different than a mob storming the White House or Supreme Court. This is very different than a Target store being looted.


Hopefully people on both sides have learned, over the last year or so, that protests are fine violence is not.

 

Edited by raven2

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On current events...I have a test to write this morning which I'm putting off...AND...I wish they would get the vaccine out more quickly than they have been.  In theory I should be in one of the first groups to get it after the first responders and hospital workers, but at the rate they are going it will be 2022 before those in my group get it, much less everyone else!!!

(an exception to the rest of the US...Though I do hear in Texas they are making those over the age of 65 a priority higher than other states)

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17 hours ago, Still_Small_Voice said:

I am wondering if there will be a next time.  If they make more States to get more Senators and possibly more House Members, pack the Supreme Court with more Judges and continue to ignore voter laws that secure our elections in some States you are likely going to lose every time without divine intervention.

A great question is how long do we have before America breaks apart?  No one knows.  But in Elder Oaks' words, I sense a promise that we have at least two, possibly four more years, at a minimum.  It wasn't explicit.  But that is the sense I get from it.

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1 hour ago, raven2 said:

Even the crazy Washington Times retracted their article that Antifa was in the crowd. Many of the photos taken are of well know trumpers/right wing extremist. It is what it is. 

Yup.

1 hour ago, raven2 said:

What makes this more shocking, in my opinion, is this was a direct assault on one of our 3 constitutional branches of government. No different than a mob storming the White House or Supreme Court. This is very different than a Target store being looted.

Does anyone have videos of weapons being used by the conservative protesters, or of any of these protesters attacking police/security?

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4 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

There's been a lot of talk about "what would have happened" if the protestors had been liberals, not conservatives. The supposition is that it would have been a bloodbath.

I've never been very impressed by people who argue on the basis of what they say "would have happened" in some totally hypothetical scenario. As a kid, I was always having my nose rubbed in what I supposedly "would have done" if <blah blah blah> had happened. It's a lazy way to argue: since <blah blah blah> didn't happen, there's no way to test the assertion, and no way to refute it.

It would make some sense if they had cited what I did do in some analogous situation which really did happen - but why not just have a go at me for that, instead of building a hypothetical case based on something that didn't happen? But the argument was always carried by the strength of the dirty looks the accuser could give, and how anxious the listeners were to enjoy a feeling of righteous disgust (against me).

If Trump had won the election and Biden supporters had stormed the capitol, we really don't know what what would have happened. Bearing in mind how anxious everyone is to "appear woke", I wouldn't be surprised if they'd get a free pass. But that's speculation. To find out, we would need to visit a parallel universe.

[Trying to keep this apolitical]

It seems to me like the Capitol Hill cops generally (with some exceptions) acted the way many folks have spent the last year saying that cops should act in the fact of massive demonstrations that threaten to vandalize public property. “It’s only property . . . it’s probably insured . . . property is less important than human life . . . you should have tried to de-escalate, rather than going for a gun . . . be accommodating . . . smile . . . pose for selfies!”

I’d hate to be a police officer right now.  Those guys are literally darned if they do and darned if they don’t. 

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It is sad to see that a few people in power are now saying "enough" after 5 people died, seriously? People had to die to say enough is enough? It makes me even more sad to see many people supporting and justifying what happened in the Capitol, I've said it before and I'll say it again: Some of these people act like they are part of a cult, a  dangerous cult saying the President is the Chosen One, the Messiah.He has become their religion.

Having said that, I always try to be fair, I don't think for a minute that MOST of his supporters are like the ones we saw Wednesday.

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1 minute ago, Suzie said:

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Some of these people act like they are part of a cult, a  dangerous cult saying the President is the Chosen One, the Messiah.He has become their religion.

It was absolutely surreal watching the United States flag taken down and replaced with a Trump flag by people claiming to be "patriots". After all the times I've been called unpatriotic or a "fake soldier" by people like that, it was infuriating.

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I have retired - but one thing I have learned by my many years of work (in the field of automation) is that when things go wrong in a complex system - the only way to "fix" it and make things get running again requires very accurate and complete, to the most minute detail, understanding of what, where, when and how things went wrong.  There are problems gathering data especially when the cause is ambiguous.  It is not uncommon to think that the problem has been discovered when in reality one has only discovered a symptom and not a cause.  There is also a unintentional effort to shift blame.  A simple way of putting this shift of blame problem is software types thinking the root of the problem is hardware and the hardware types thinking the root of the problem is software. 

Then there is the matter of process.  I was working with a Japanese robot when a storm caused a power outage and an uncontrolled shut down of everything in the plant.  The Japanese robot was intergraded into some very complex processes that completely lost is brains in the shutdown which took days to get back on line.  But the Japanese would not accept any responsibility for their robot's failure to come back on line - they  kept saying we should not allow a uncontrolled shutdown.  They simply could not understand any recovery processes outside of a controlled shutdown - which BTW took up to a few hours to complete. 

It is surprising that very few people understand cascading problems from the seemingly simple to catastrophic failure. There is a motion picture titled "Passengers" that high lights such a problem.  Fixing anything but the root cause will not avoid catastrophic failure. 

I believe @Just_A_Guyhas suggested that we are approaching catastrophic failure of our system of government, culture and society.  I define such a catastrophic failure as a civil war.  Having been enlisted in the military during a war - I have experience with war.  The best possible outcome of war is the loss of many of the best and brightest of that society that wins - the war.   The society that looses a war is lost and will never again exist as it was before.  The other problem with war is picking which side you are willing to die defending.  That will at least allow you a choice of who will kill you and for what.

 

The Traveler

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12 minutes ago, Godless said:

It was absolutely surreal watching the United States flag taken down and replaced with a Trump flag by people claiming to be "patriots". After all the times I've been called unpatriotic or a "fake soldier" by people like that, it was infuriating.

Godless, do you have video of this?  I’ve seen a photo (from you, I think) and similar video of some guys hanging off a window-washing platform carrying a Trump flag and two American flags, that is represented as you state above; but I can’t ascertain where on the Capitol the flagpole in question actually was.

Edited by Just_A_Guy

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