The Deaf culture phenomenon - insights?

[Vort]

4 hours ago, estradling75 said:

As a general rule you do not convince someone to make major changes in their sense of self, and the way they live by basically calling them stupid, or short sighted (Aka an attack even if you do not see it that way yourself)

Excellent point. But what if your words are intended not to persuade the "other side" (which seems a futile task), but rather to examine the roots of the issue as plainly and even bluntly as possible and, hopefully, prevent reasonable but naive people from latching onto false talk about being "pro-choice" and instead see the issue for what it is, in stark relief?

[NeuroTypical]

I drew a rough analogy between deaf folks not wanting to hear, and my person who wouldn't change her past.   That analogy can only go so far.  And another big difference with children, is they are not yet who they will be.  Giving an infant or young child an implant isn't altering a core component of their existence. 

[estradling75]

8 minutes ago, Vort said:

Do you feel the same about insulin for diabetics? What you say sounds reasonable in the abstract, but quickly falls apart on closer examination in real conditions. Larger culture and its people, aka "strangers", determine a very great deal of what we consider acceptable.

 

Reaching...  Deafness is not a life and death issue...  and on life and death issue we have the legal system to balance things according to the Rule of Law

 

8 minutes ago, Vort said:

I didn't get that from what Fether wrote. I suspect you may be imputing meanings to his words that he didn't say or intend.

You mean like he imputed from mine?  I suppose that is fair then.  Last I checked he was the one asking for insight on why people behave a certain way... But his responses are more about proving himself 'right' rather then trying to understand.

I do not disagree with his position or his points (really).  But he is not going to change anyone's mind on the issue until he understands he is not dealing with a logical or reasoned response.  He is dealing with a highly emotional one, because it is about how they identify themselves.  And yes infants/kids aren't going to have that, but in the cases he is worried about the parents do.. and that is whom he has to convince and/or work around (And preferably without a massive violations of anyone's rights)

 

[Jane_Doe]

2 hours ago, Fether said:

Is this not the case? Are you saying that a deaf person can function in society just as well as a hearing person without any hinderance?

If you were happy the way you are, no. But to refusing to correct a correctable disability in a child seems more akin to child abuse than correcting the disability.

 

Adults: if they do wished

newborns: absolutely

Nope

 

These are all completely different and cannot all be compared as if they were one on the same. I’m not talking about normalizing, I’m talking about enhancing someone who is born disabled.

A deaf person is perfectly capable of functioning in society and communicating as a hearing person.  ASL is amazing and the deaf people I knew (whom were majority LDS) considered it to be a legit miracle from God.  There are also many other tools to aide with things (texting, alarms with lights, etc). 

Is it the same life as a hearing person?  Obviously not.  But it is still just a legitimate and such individuals should not be approached as if they are “broken”.  Likewise it’s not abusive for parents to not automatically force thier children to be something they are not naturally.  Rather, it should indeed be a carefully thought out decision.  

[Anddenex]

14 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

Likewise, a deaf child is beautiful.  Yes, she/he is different than a standard hearing kid, but still beautiful.  Deafness often brings a great eye for beauty, a composite nature, a deep awareness of how others are feeling, etc.    A deaf person is are not "broken" and don't need "fixed".  And cochlear implant hearing is not true hearing either.  And there can be a lot of resentment if  somebody approaches them or their kids that way.  

As to my experience with Deaf culture, this statement pretty much sums up why the culture sees this as not the best source:

1) It isn't "healing". It is mechanical.

2) It says that there is something wrong with them.

3) The culture itself is a by-product of how the "hearing" treated deaf persons. Now you have "hearing" people telling them we can cure you.

4) If you spoke to a dwarf and said, "Hey, I have this surgery that would make you taller. You wouldn't be a dwarf anymore." You can see how that might come across a little obtuse. Or maybe an even better one -- this is a taboo comment, so if timid or easily shaken don't read further -- walking up to a flat chested woman and telling her, "Hey we can heal those breasts with a simple augmentation. You will look and feel more like a woman."

5) I haven't met a deaf person who wouldn't have been grateful if a true "miracle" occurred -- like in scripture -- for their hearing.

6) As with any mutation -- not considered normal -- it takes a long time (for many) to come to grips with their state and "love" who they are.

As the procedure gets better, I would assume more deaf persons will be more interested in it. Right now, it is new.

Edited August 20, 2021 by Anddenex

[Traveler]

4 hours ago, LDSGator said:

I am convinced that having people in your life that think differently than you is a vastly underrated blessing. Among many other benefits, it reminds you that people can think differently than you and still be wonderful people. 

It does indeed bring many blessing but unfortunately one of them is not the making of disagreement resolution any easier.  I have said it before - sometimes (many times) it is more important to be loving, kind and willing to work together than it is to be right -- especially if it means being right all by yourself.

 

The Traveler

[LDSGator]

4 minutes ago, Traveler said:

it is more important to be loving, kind and willing to work together than it is to be right -- especially if it means being right all by yourself.

To me it’s more about picking your battles and asking yourself if every hill is worth dying on. Like you mentioned, what good is “being right” if you have no influence upon others? 

[mikbone]

I have some tinnitus in my left ear.

Just like everything else, there are 'bad apples in the deaf community.

I had a private medical practice and we went thru some hell with the state of California because we did not accommodate one of our deaf patients with an in-person ASL interpreter.  I guarantee that my partners and I bend over backward to communicate with all our patients.  She turned us into the state with a formal complaint.

Recently @ my new job (I'm now an employee for a health care group and work in a small hospital), I was essentially forced to accommodate a particularly nasty deaf patient with a simple trigger finger.  She refused to use an electronic device (ipad with audio, video, and professional interpreters), demanded that my clinic and hospital supply her with a professional in-person interpreter.  She refused to attempt communicating via writing in English - and my writing is legible.  She also grunts, gasps, and blows raspberries continually in a ridiculously loud and irritating tone.  

We did the surgery and everyone that came in contact with her reported how nasty of a person she was.  She does not speak English but she is an extraordinarily effective communicator.  EVERYONE KNEW THAT SHE WAS A (insert slang word of choice).

 

Edited August 20, 2021 by mikbone

[LDSGator]

53 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

But it is still just a legitimate and such individuals should not be approached as if they are “broken”

Often times, people with “disabilities” are just as happy as the non disabled are. 
 

I’m unsure as to why people who aren’t hearing impaired would throw terms like “broken” around. I question their motives. 

[Traveler]

As i read thorough this thread with great interest - I think there is one very important principle that is missing.  It is the principle of agency.  The principle of agency means that we all have the power to make whatever choice we wish for ourselves but we do not have the right nor any real power to make choices for anyone else.  As much as I enjoy the power and ability of hearing I can make choices to hear as best as I can -- but then again there are many things I choose not the hear.  In other words to have ears that hear but some things I do not hear.

I have come to realize that there is no difference in outcome between being unable or being unwilling.  Often people say they cannot do something when in reality they are saying that they are unwilling to do something.   I have also learned that those the could and don't really do not like to be corrected and sometimes they will get angry not only if you clearly and logically point out their abilities but also they do not want any help in accomplishing whatever it is that they say is impossible.

I believe that whoever anyone is and therefore whatever they choose with their agency -- I have decided I am 100% in agreeing that it is their choice.  Sometimes it is a little confusing for me why they make a choice so far from what I would choose and sometimes I am curious what was behind their choice (in case I missed something).  And yet I do not know how to deal with those that make choices that they are not willing to defend without becoming somewhat upset.  I think if someone really likes their choices that they would be glad to have the world know - not just what they have chosen but why and how they came to their choice.

 

The Traveler 

[Traveler]

10 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

To me it’s more about picking your battles and asking yourself if every hill is worth dying on. Like you mentioned, what good is “being right” if you have no influence upon others? 

Interesting you talked about picking your battles.  One lesson I learned from my military experience is regardless (at least in most cases) you will have a much better chance surviving a battle working as a team than thinking you can do better on your own.  Perhaps you can run and hide better on your own but such action is still likely to costs more lives (especially of those that think they can trust you) than if you give your own life for the team.

 

The Traveler

[LDSGator]

1 minute ago, Traveler said:

 you will have a much better chance surviving a battle working as a team than thinking you can do better on your own

Yes, agree fully, as long as that team works together. 

[Traveler]

16 minutes ago, mikbone said:

I have some tinnitus in my left ear.

Just like everything else, there are 'bad apples in the deaf community.

I had a private medical practice and we went thru some hell with the state of California because we did not accommodate one of our deaf patients with an in-person ASL interpreter.  I guarantee that my partners and I bend over backward to communicate with all our patients.  She turned us into the state with a formal complaint.

Recently @ my new job (I'm now an employee for a health care group and work in a small hospital), I was essentially forced to accommodate a particularly nasty deaf patient with a simple trigger finger.  She refused to use an electronic device (ipad with audio, video, and professional interpreters), demanded that my clinic and hospital supply her with a professional in-person interpreter.  She refused to attempt communicating via writing in English - and my writing is legible.  She also grunts, gasps, and blows raspberries continually in a ridiculously loud and irritating tone.  

We did the surgery and everyone that came in contact with her reported how nasty of a person she was.  She does not speak English but she is an extraordinarily effective communicator.  EVERYONE KNEW THAT SHE WAS A (insert slang word of choice).

 

One of my great life lessons from such experience is that if I am ever in a position to need someone's help that I will be more likely to get all the help I need by being kind and appreciative for any help - and that it never benefits me to get angry and upset at anyone that can help me.  And yet almost always; whenever I travel and go to a person working in the travel industry specifically to help others and I encounter others that desperately need help that they will get angry and abusive towards the only one that can help them.  It seems the more they need help the worse they treat anyone that can help them and the only people that they will show any kindness to is someone that cannot possibly help them??????

 

The Traveler

[Fether]

2 hours ago, estradling75 said:

You mean like he imputed from mine?  I suppose that is fair then.  Last I checked he was the one asking for insight on why people behave a certain way... But his responses are more about proving himself 'right' rather then trying to understand.

I’m asking insights because there seems to be this strong feeling against healing a deaf newborn and I have not been convinced of it.

All the examples and analogies given have been great, but always fall short right where it matters.

Frankly speaking, this ideology in the Deaf community… it looks like a bunch of crabs in a bucket.

Edited August 20, 2021 by Fether

[mikbone]

Mark 3: 1-6  seems appropriate to this thread.

Whenever able, I tend to use Jesus Christ as a good example to follow.

Edited August 20, 2021 by mikbone

[estradling75]

1 hour ago, Fether said:

I’m asking insights because there seems to be this strong feeling against healing a deaf newborn and I have not been convinced of it.

All the examples and analogies given have been great, but always fall short right where it matters.

Frankly speaking, this ideology in the Deaf community… it looks like a bunch of crabs in a bucket.

And you are entitled to your opinion... But you also know what they say about opinions...

The peoples who opinions matter on this subject, the ones who make the decisions when the cases come up...  Aren't going to be moved or impressed by your personal insults toward them (crabs indeed) nor are thy going to be seeking or needing your opinion/approval.  If you want a any chance of making a difference on this subject you have to convince them that you actually care about them and the way they think... Which you so far have completely failed at in this thread.

 

 

[mordorbund]

3 hours ago, LDSGator said:

I’m unsure as to why people who aren’t hearing impaired would throw terms like “broken” around.

"impaired" is better than "broken"?

[LDSGator]

1 hour ago, mordorbund said:

"impaired" is better than "broken"?

If it’s what a hearing impaired person wants to be called, I have this amazing ability to call them that. Or John. Or Becky. Whatever they want. It takes two seconds to say “So how do you want to be addressed?” 
 

You know how we ask to be called “Latter Day Saints” instead of “Mormons”? Well, if we expect to have that request honored, we need to do the same back. 

Edited August 21, 2021 by LDSGator

[Just_A_Guy]

On 8/20/2021 at 3:36 PM, estradling75 said:

And you are entitled to your opinion... But you also know what they say about opinions...

The peoples who opinions matter on this subject, the ones who make the decisions when the cases come up...  Aren't going to be moved or impressed by your personal insults toward them (crabs indeed) nor are thy going to be seeking or needing your opinion/approval.  If you want a any chance of making a difference on this subject you have to convince them that you actually care about them and the way they think... Which you so far have completely failed at in this thread.

 

 

Is Fether trying to convince others that he’s right?  Or just trying to work out a space in which he can continue to hold to his opinion after it has been challenged?  I know that often my posts to this forum fall more into the second category.

Cambry Kaylor is the wife of YouTube personality Zack Nelson (of “Jerry Rig Everything”).  She’s a paraplegic as a result of an equine gymnastics accident from when she was a teenager.  She has a very beautiful video on the Church’s YouTube channel, in which she basically says she is so reconciled to her situation that she wouldn’t change the day she had her accident even if it were possible.

It’s a lovely thought, and she seems a very well-adjusted young lady.

But I continue to pray that my kids never have to cope with a broken spine; and I don’t think I’m a degenerate or improperly dismissive of Sister Kaylor’s experience for doing so.

I do think, however, that this notion of focusing on the positive aspects of a physical/cognitive (for lack of a better word) “abnormality”, while refusing to acknowledge the existence or significance of the negative aspects, has laid a lot of the groundwork for the “God-made-me-who-I-an-and-I-never-need-to-become-anything-else” mentality that justifies much of the LGBTQ movement.  None of us know for sure what aspects of our personalities or abilities are and aren’t supposed to be eternal; so I think the best thing to do is to focus on Christ and not get too attached to any aspect of our so-called “identities”.

(Oh, and I’m red-green color blind and have two nephews on the spectrum.  I’d *love* to be healed; there is zero upside to my condition.  One of my nephews is a whiz at Legos and has an amazing deadpan sense of humor, and the other is something of a savant on the piano; but neither of them will ever be financially self-sufficient or capable of having a family, and one of them is so bad with physical boundaries that he can’t be left alone with his younger female cousins.  I love my nephews—but yes, as to their particular manifestations of autism they are absolutely “disabled”.  I look forward to their being healed in a way that preserves the unique divine qualities each of them possess while also adding upon them the capabilities that, at this moment, they are undeniably lacking.)

Edited August 23, 2021 by Just_A_Guy

[Fether]

34 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

s Fether trying to convince others that he’s right?  Or just trying to work out a space in which he can continue to hold to his opinion after it has been challenged?  I know that often my posts to this forum fall more into the second category

I find more and more that my opinions on things are lacking and often times just plain wrong. So often times I come here and to other forums where people have more experience than I do and I put up my views to be challenged in an attempt to fill in the gaps in understanding I have, or to correct a view entirely.

Thats what I did here. I wanted to see if anyone could over a counter argument that would change my view or if the arguments I was familiar with were the only arguments available.

[dprh]

41 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

But I continue to pray that my kids never have to cope with a broken spine; and I don’t think I’m a degenerate or improperly dismissive of Sister Kaylor’s experience for doing so.

How many conference talks have there been about trials leading to growth?  It seems there are three or four every session that at least mention it.  While broken backs are incredibly terrible, if that is what it takes for me or my kids to become the type of people we need to be to, who am I to pray against it?  I'm struggling to express my thoughts on this.  JAG, I don't mean to sound critical.  Just what I've been learning the last few years, is to include a lot more "Thy will be done" in my prayers.  

[Just_A_Guy]

6 minutes ago, dprh said:

How many conference talks have there been about trials leading to growth?  It seems there are three or four every session that at least mention it.  While broken backs are incredibly terrible, if that is what it takes for me or my kids to become the type of people we need to be to, who am I to pray against it?  I'm struggling to express my thoughts on this.  JAG, I don't mean to sound critical.  Just what I've been learning the last few years, is to include a lot more "Thy will be done" in my prayers.  

Oh, I completely agree.  I just worry when this mentality leads us to passively accept, or even actively and deliberately perpetuate, situations that God had been expecting us—and indeed, gave us the means—to change.

At the risk of invoking the good Dr. Godwin here:  We hear Holocaust survivors talk about the things they learned about human nature in the camps.  That doesn’t mean Eisenhower was wrong for liberating the camps, or that Hitler was inspired for creating them in the first place.

I guess it goes back to AA’s serenity prayer—serenity to accept what we can’t change, courage to change what we can, and wisdom to know the difference.

Edited August 23, 2021 by Just_A_Guy

[estradling75]

2 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Oh, I completely agree.  I just worry when this mentality leads us to passively accept, or even actively and deliberately perpetuate, situations that God had been expecting us—and indeed, gave us the means—to change.

At the risk of invoking the good Dr. Godwin here:  We hear Holocaust survivors talk about the things they learned about human nature in the camps.  That doesn’t mean Eisenhower was wrong for liberating the camps, or that Hitler was inspired for creating them in the first place.

I guess it goes back to AA’s serenity prayer—serenity to accept what we can’t change, courage to change what we can, and wisdom to know the difference.

I agree with what you say and I would like to add to it...  One of the things we can not change is how others respond to the trials.  People can and do respond differently to what appears to be the same trials.  Differences in responses don't have to mean that one response is better then the other, but rather people finding the response that works for them.  And if the trial is prolonged the response might even change over time.  Let me illustrate this point.

I have a hearing loss, and I have had it as long as I can remember, my first response to this trial was crafted by my mom, and my doctor.  They chose environmental control, I was a kid... my environment was home, church, and school.  My mom reached out to my teachers, and leaders and had arrangements made.  They didn't do hearing aids because they were worried that I would get picked on and bullied for being 'different.' 

Now we can debate the pros and cons of their choices and second guess them all we want.. but our opinions (including mine) on it do not matter, is done and they did what they thought was best for me.  Then I went on a mission and I could no longer actively mange my environment so I got hearing aids and have had them ever since.  Thus my response has changed... kinda.

I have a love/hate relationship with my hearing aids...  I love what they offer me, but I hate the cost, maintenance, repairs, feedback, and etc.   And they are still not as good as normal hearing...  So when given the option I still prefer to manage my hearing loss environmentally.

Now back to the topic of implants. Deaf people have had to face this trial for all of humanities mortal existence...  They didn't just curl up and die because implants were not a thing.  They struggled, they adapted and they figured out how to have meaningful productive lives all with out the option for implant.  Those stories are on par with our pioneer stories, or at least they should be if we didn't have a huge hearing bias.  But the only people remembering these struggles are the ones drawing strength from them.  But there is no match for Pioneer Day for the Deaf.. there is no semiannual youth 'trek' to remember the trials of the Deaf or Hearing Impaired, because this group has always been small.

Then you have arrogant hearing people making no effort to understand.. saying just get the implant and the problems just go away...  And that is a lie.  Implants can be a huge benefit for some people, but it is not normal hearing, its not healing... Its another crutch, its a fancier set of hearing aids, with fancier costs.  And Hearing people are try sell this, to people who have already figured out how to adapt to their trials and live productive lives.  (Like trying to sell ice to Eskimos) So not surprisingly they do not see upside as all that huge, and means the downsides (like needing surgery) hit that much harder.  

 

Edited August 23, 2021 by estradling75

[dprh]

I'm sure some on the forum ( @Carborendum definitely, right?) are familiar with Brandon Sanderson's books.  He write fantasy/sci-fi novels.  (Excellent books, btw).  Part of his magic systems depends on an individual's Identity (https://coppermind.net/wiki/Identity) If a person sees something like hearing impairment, autism, missing a limb, etc. as part of their Identity, they can't be 'healed' of it.  Rysn's character in the Stormlight Archive series (https://coppermind.net/wiki/Rysn_Ftori) is a great example of someone who's 'ailment' can't be magically healed. It's not presented in a light that one way is right or wrong.  It's an individual thing and I think it's really well presented.  

I think these ideas apply in this discussion.  Some hearing impaired or deaf people see it as part of their identity and don't think they need solutions.  Others do.  There's no one-size-fits-all application. 

 

Quote

 

Healing[edit]

Most healing in the cosmere works by using the three versions of the user's self; their Physical, Cognitive, and Spiritual version.^[21][22] Healing typically heals the Physical version by matching it to their ideal Spiritual version, which is filtered through the lens of their minds (Cognitive version).^[23] Almost all forms of healing in the cosmere are filtered through the perception of the user.^[24][25] If a person hasn't accepted a wound as a part of themselves, they can still heal it regardless of how long they've had it.^[26] However, even if a wound is recent, if the person has changed their mindset to see it as a part of themselves, they will not be able to heal from it.^[27][28]

 

 

[dprh]

15 hours ago, dprh said:

I'm sure some on the forum ( @Carborendum definitely, right?) are familiar with Brandon Sanderson's books.  He write fantasy/sci-fi novels.  (Excellent books, btw).  Part of his magic systems depends on an individual's Identity (https://coppermind.net/wiki/Identity) If a person sees something like hearing impairment, autism, missing a limb, etc. as part of their Identity, they can't be 'healed' of it.  Rysn's character in the Stormlight Archive series (https://coppermind.net/wiki/Rysn_Ftori) is a great example of someone whose 'ailment' can't be magically healed. It's not presented in a light that one way is right or wrong.  It's an individual thing and I think it's really well presented.  

I think these ideas apply in this discussion.  Some hearing impaired or deaf people see it as part of their identity and don't think they need solutions.  Others do.  There's no one-size-fits-all application. 

Healing[edit]

Most healing in the cosmere works by using the three versions of the user's self; their Physical, Cognitive, and Spiritual version.^[21][22] Healing typically heals the Physical version by matching it to their ideal Spiritual version, which is filtered through the lens of their minds (Cognitive version).^[23] Almost all forms of healing in the cosmere are filtered through the perception of the user.^[24][25] If a person hasn't accepted a wound as a part of themselves, they can still heal it regardless of how long they've had it.^[26] However, even if a wound is recent, if the person has changed their mindset to see it as a part of themselves, they will not be able to heal from it.^[27][28]

 

 

Edited August 25, 2021 by dprh
tried to fix grammar, messed up quotes.... :(