Like In The Days of Noah


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But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. As the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.  For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Matt 24:36-41

The bolded portion stood out to me in this passage recently.  From what we read in Genesis, there was no warning, no building up phase with calamities in society.  One day was sunny skies.  The next day was the Deluge.

But with the Second Coming, we have signs of the times.  There is a build up.  MAJOR CALAMITIES, and we're still celebrating, marrying and giving in marriage.  A commonly accepted timeframe for Noah to build the ark was 120 years (this value is debated). It has been 202 years since the First Vision.  It has been 192 years since the founding of the Church.  All other significant events in between.

All during this time, we've seen calamities and signs of the times that have been dismissed as a false alarm.  I wonder if they were.  I wonder if we're just making merry as in the Days of Noah.

We may not know the day nor the hour of the Second Coming.  But I tend to think that just because our lifespans are so short, we don't fully appreciate that we truly are in the last days.

Edited by Carborendum
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6 hours ago, Carborendum said:

The bolded portion stood out to me in this passage recently.  From what we read in Genesis, there was no warning, no building up phase with calamities in society.  One day was sunny skies.  The next day was the Deluge.

But with the Second Coming, we have signs of the times.  There is a build up.  MAJOR CALAMITIES, and we're still celebrating, marrying and giving in marriage.  A commonly accepted timeframe for Noah to build the ark was 120 years (this value is debated). It has been 102 years since the First Vision.  It has been 92 years since the founding of the Church.  All other significant events in between.

All during this time, we've seen calamities and signs of the times that have been dismissed as a false alarm.  I wonder if they were.  I wonder if we're just making merry as in the Days of Noah.

We may not know the day nor the hour of the Second Coming.  But I tend to think that just because our lifespans are so short, we don't fully appreciate that we truly are in the last days.

Um, your math is off by 100 years.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

Um, your math is off by 100 years.

LoL.  You're right!

I'm just a lot older than I think.  I keep thinking we're in the 1900s. Hah.

Fixed.

Funny thing is that I remember writing 102 and 192 years.  I knew something was off. But I fixed the wrong number.

Edited by Carborendum
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On 5/11/2022 at 7:35 AM, Carborendum said:

The bolded portion stood out to me in this passage recently.  From what we read in Genesis, there was no warning, no building up phase with calamities in society.  One day was sunny skies.  The next day was the Deluge.

But with the Second Coming, we have signs of the times.  There is a build up.  MAJOR CALAMITIES, and we're still celebrating, marrying and giving in marriage.  A commonly accepted timeframe for Noah to build the ark was 120 years (this value is debated). It has been 202 years since the First Vision.  It has been 192 years since the founding of the Church.  All other significant events in between.

All during this time, we've seen calamities and signs of the times that have been dismissed as a false alarm.  I wonder if they were.  I wonder if we're just making merry as in the Days of Noah.

We may not know the day nor the hour of the Second Coming.  But I tend to think that just because our lifespans are so short, we don't fully appreciate that we truly are in the last days.

 

I feel there WERE warnings in Noah's time.  They probably started BEFORE Noah actually even started building his Ark.  In that light, it could have been going on for HUNDREDS of years prior to the flood.  People just didn't act upon those warnings and didn't believe in them.  They saw life continuing as it always did, and lived it as such while ignoring the prophets and anything they said. 

We see this today, even among Church members.  In a more literal and recent event, we saw it with the pandemic.  We had prophets and apostles come out and tell us to wear masks, social distance, get vaccinated.  Instead of actually listening and doing what the Prophets asked us to do, we had MANY go to these statements and tear them down.  These were members of the Church doing this.  We had OPEN rebellion in some Church buildings and services with people REFUSING to wear masks OR social distance.  We had people making up all sorts of excuses NOT to get vaccinated. 

The pandemic was something we literally could see occurring in front of us.  The statements from Apostles and First Presidency were directly dealing with a situation occurring in real time, and even then, we had so many within the church (not even those who are not members, we are talking the membership itself) go in open rebellion.

If something that is seen and experienced in the immediate present is treated in such a manner, how is something that is not yet seen (such as Noah's flood before it finally occurred) being treated by people?

When the events of the Second Coming actually occur and the Lord comes, there could be a lot of death and destruction from formerly confident individuals.  If it happens within my lifetime, I'm not sure I'm going to survive it (nothing in my patriarchal blessing indicates that I will survive it).  Many look forward to it as if they will be one of those spared, I find very few actually look at it and think...I might not actually survive this. 

We will be there in the afterlife to see it perhaps, but there may be many who think that they are among those sanctified that are eating and drinking today, marrying and frolicking, and all sorts of other daily activities who will not live in the mortal flesh to see the Second Coming (and that probably includes myself). 

Edited by JohnsonJones
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On 5/11/2022 at 11:05 PM, Carborendum said:

We may not know the day nor the hour of the Second Coming. 

I tend to agree with the above statement, but all of the various ways in which I have seen this idea worded leave open the possibility that it may be possible to calculate the year, but not the hour or the day. 

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19 hours ago, askandanswer said:

I tend to agree with the above statement, but all of the various ways in which I have seen this idea worded leave open the possibility that it may be possible to calculate the year, but not the hour or the day. 

No, I don't think we know the year either.

My point was that people tend to give up on the idea that we're in the last days because business as usual keeps happening.  The fact is that prophecies say that we're going to see business as usual throughout the last days.  It isn't even the frog in a pot.  We'll see tremendous periods of great prosperity.

But the Second Coming will happen anyway, and we are supposed to do our part to prepare the way.

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Over the decades, I have encountered no fewer than half a dozen people who told me they knew the year.  Those years have all come and gone.  

Over the centuries, I've read of at least a dozen other people or groups who all claimed to know the time of the second coming.  Like the ones I personally encountered, their timeframes were all soon/immediately/quickly.  I'm told the first predictors of the second coming happened within a few years of Christ's death/ascendance.  

*shrug*.   Eventually, someone'll get it right.  Like they did in the BoM with prophecies of Christ's birth.

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22 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

We see this today, even among Church members.  In a more literal and recent event, we saw it with the pandemic.  We had prophets and apostles come out and tell us to wear masks, social distance, get vaccinated.  Instead of actually listening and doing what the Prophets asked us to do, we had MANY go to these statements and tear them down.  These were members of the Church doing this.  We had OPEN rebellion in some Church buildings and services with people REFUSING to wear masks OR social distance.  We had people making up all sorts of excuses NOT to get vaccinated. 

If we are going to throw that out there, let's at least get the church's official stance correct.

 

From the Hanbook, Section 38 (which Pres. Nelson had updated at the beginning of Covid):

 

“Vaccinations administered by competent medical professionals protect health and preserve life,”

 “Members of the church are encouraged to safeguard themselves, their children and their communities through vaccination.

 

“Ultimately,” the statement continued, “individuals are responsible to make their own decisions about vaccination. If members have concerns, they should counsel with competent medical professionals and also seek the guidance of the Holy Ghost.”

 

 

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34 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

If we are going to throw that out there, let's at least get the church's official stance correct.

People always read into it whatever they want.  People believe what they want to believe.  People ignore what they want to ignore.  I've known only a precious few (I'm not one of them) who have been largely immune from this tendency.

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On 5/13/2022 at 11:54 AM, mirkwood said:

If we are going to throw that out there, let's at least get the church's official stance correct.

 

From the Hanbook, Section 38 (which Pres. Nelson had updated at the beginning of Covid):

 

“Vaccinations administered by competent medical professionals protect health and preserve life,”

 “Members of the church are encouraged to safeguard themselves, their children and their communities through vaccination.

 

“Ultimately,” the statement continued, “individuals are responsible to make their own decisions about vaccination. If members have concerns, they should counsel with competent medical professionals and also seek the guidance of the Holy Ghost.”

 

 

Not trying turn this into a Covid thread but I think JohnsonJones statements has a lot of merit to the last days and to Noah’s time. Members and others are very good at justifying things that we don’t like or goes against our politic views.

While the church has their general statement on vaccinations (which you posted). They made some very specific statements for Covid.

Definition of urge - “try earnestly or persistently to persuade (someone) to do something.”

“We know that protection from the diseases they cause can only be achieved by immunizing a very high percentage of the population.

To limit exposure to these viruses, we urge the use of face masks in public meetings whenever social distancing is not possible. To provide personal protection from such severe infections, we urge individuals to be vaccinated. Available vaccines have proven to be both safe and effective.” First Presidency

Also

“We are thankful for the countless doctors, scientists, researchers, manufacturers, government leaders, and others who have performed the grueling work required to make this vaccine available. We have prayed often for this literal godsend.“ President Nelson

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41 minutes ago, raven2 said:

Not trying turn this into a Covid thread but I think JohnsonJones statements has a lot of merit to the last days and to Noah’s time. Members and others are very good at justifying things that we don’t like or goes against our politic views.

While the church has their general statement on vaccinations (which you posted). They made some very specific statements for Covid.

Definition of urge - “try earnestly or persistently to persuade (someone) to do something.”

“We know that protection from the diseases they cause can only be achieved by immunizing a very high percentage of the population.

To limit exposure to these viruses, we urge the use of face masks in public meetings whenever social distancing is not possible. To provide personal protection from such severe infections, we urge individuals to be vaccinated. Available vaccines have proven to be both safe and effective.” First Presidency

Also

“We are thankful for the countless doctors, scientists, researchers, manufacturers, government leaders, and others who have performed the grueling work required to make this vaccine available. We have prayed often for this literal godsend.“ President Nelson

He also said,

 

“In making that determination, we recommend that, where possible, they counsel with a competent medical professional about their personal circumstances and needs.”

and

 

“individuals are responsible to make their own decisions about vaccination.”

 

Yes,  "Members and others are very good at justifying things that we don’t like or goes against our politic views."

 

 

Edited by mirkwood
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In regards to Covid - 

When the vaccines first came out, I had a strong feeling that I needed to wait as long as humanly possible before getting my vaccines. 

Well, my hand was forced in the summer of 2021. I had a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, but it was only if vaccinated. I got both Moderna shots, and the second shot, combined with the manual labor I was doing that day, laid me flat with dangerously high blood pressure. 

Well, come fall 2021 the Associated Press is reporting that five different European medical boards are investigating the Moderna vaccine after allegations of it causing... cardiovascular health issues in certain populations. 

I have a heart condition, and so had I known about this I'd have asked for a different vaccine. 

I think that's why I was feeling that I needed to wait, because I needed to read about these reports so I could make a more informed choice for the sake of my health. 

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3 hours ago, mirkwood said:

He also said,

 

“In making that determination, we recommend that, where possible, they counsel with a competent medical professional about their personal circumstances and needs.”

and

 

“individuals are responsible to make their own decisions about vaccination.”

 

Yes,  "Members and others are very good at justifying things that we don’t like or goes against our politic views."

 

 

What about the example they also set for us?

I am sure there was a lot of ‘debate’ during Mose and the brass serpent event as well. Probably something along the line, ‘well he didn’t openly command us to look on the brass serpent, just urged us to do so. Also, Fred in the tent next to me heard from his tent neighbor that…’

But I also respect our individual agency. 

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On 5/11/2022 at 6:35 AM, Carborendum said:

The bolded portion stood out to me in this passage recently.  From what we read in Genesis, there was no warning, no building up phase with calamities in society.  One day was sunny skies.  The next day was the Deluge.

But with the Second Coming, we have signs of the times.  There is a build up.  MAJOR CALAMITIES, and we're still celebrating, marrying and giving in marriage.  A commonly accepted timeframe for Noah to build the ark was 120 years (this value is debated). It has been 202 years since the First Vision.  It has been 192 years since the founding of the Church.  All other significant events in between.

All during this time, we've seen calamities and signs of the times that have been dismissed as a false alarm.  I wonder if they were.  I wonder if we're just making merry as in the Days of Noah.

We may not know the day nor the hour of the Second Coming.  But I tend to think that just because our lifespans are so short, we don't fully appreciate that we truly are in the last days.

To me the aftermath of 9/11 was very telling and a little discouraging. For a few months the country really pulled together it seemed and not quite as much division but then it quickly went back to politics as usual. In my mind I saw that as a gauge as to where we as a nation, and maybe as a world, stood in terms of how hardhearted we were. Now this pandemic has been to me the next big gauge of where we stand but this time around there was pretty much zero political unity. It was politicized from the word go and has been used to advance agendas and grasp power.

Of course what happens in politics tends to exaggerate where the people in general stand but it does seem to indicate the direction of where we are headed and how quickly. So while I do think there is still a lot of good in the world, we have made noticeable and worrying progress in just twenty years towards being ripe for destruction and it only seems to be picking up steam. Things and events certainly do seem to be hastening, both the good and the bad. 

 

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2 hours ago, raven2 said:

What about the example they also set for us?

I am sure there was a lot of ‘debate’ during Mose and the brass serpent event as well. Probably something along the line, ‘well he didn’t openly command us to look on the brass serpent, just urged us to do so. Also, Fred in the tent next to me heard from his tent neighbor that…’

But I also respect our individual agency. 

They told us to make our own decision.  They updated the Handbook to say the same.  I think to say otherwise is straining at gnats.

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3 hours ago, mirkwood said:

They told us to make our own decision.  They updated the Handbook to say the same.  I think to say otherwise is straining at gnats.

To each their own. 👍

Edited by raven2
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11 hours ago, mirkwood said:

They told us to make our own decision.  They updated the Handbook to say the same.  I think to say otherwise is straining at gnats.

People ignore what they want to ignore.

I think we need to ask ourselves the question "of all the counsel that the Prophet has given, what am I ignoring?"  If we're following the counsel "individuals are responsible for their own decisions..." we need to know what all the considerations are for making an informed decision.

If we've gone through the process of

  • seeking out all their counsel on a topic
  • Prayerfully considering where we sit in relationship to those topics
  • Prayerfully seeking the guidance of the Spirit for our individual situations
  • Making our final decision based on that counsel and the guidance of the Spirit

Then we've done exactly what the Lord expects us to do. For others to accuse us of doing otherwise (just because we came up with a different answer) is unrighteous judgment.  Every situation, every person/family will have different variables in their lives.  We will be held accountable to the Lord in how faithfully we sought out His will for us individually.

And just as people will ignore what they will ignore, they will also judge when they shouldn't.

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On 5/13/2022 at 9:54 AM, mirkwood said:

If we are going to throw that out there, let's at least get the church's official stance correct.

 

From the Hanbook, Section 38 (which Pres. Nelson had updated at the beginning of Covid):

 

“Vaccinations administered by competent medical professionals protect health and preserve life,”

 “Members of the church are encouraged to safeguard themselves, their children and their communities through vaccination.

 

“Ultimately,” the statement continued, “individuals are responsible to make their own decisions about vaccination. If members have concerns, they should counsel with competent medical professionals and also seek the guidance of the Holy Ghost.”

 

 

 

I'm absolutely POSITIVE a majority of the Members who made up excuses of why they did not take vaccines did NOT consult with competent medical professionals.  I HAVE read a few stories of Members who regretted the decision NOT to take the vaccine AFTERWARDS.  Interestingly enough, one family even said they felt the Holy Ghost directly told them not too...right up until a parent died and others suffered greatly...at which point...suddenly they changed their mind of what they actually were feeling.  They realized they were putting individual feelings in charge rather than listening to anything else.

Also, Israelites were NOT commanded to look at the the serpent of brass.  They were told if they looked upon it they would live.

The people in NOAH'S time the scriptures do not say the rest of the people were commanded that they HAD to board the ark or even build on themselves, though I'm sure that Noah pleaded for them mightily to do so after they would not repent.  He probably called them to repent, but they took that as advice that they could ignore if they fell under the exception in which they felt they did not need to repent.

They probably made many justifications on this.  It hadn't rained in the manner predicted for many years...afterall.  They turned out just fine...for many years at least until they didn't.

I see MANY parallels between how people are today in relation to the days of Noah, and in fact, I think they are worse.

Joseph Smith said that the people of HIS day were as the people during the days of Noah.  If they were that bad in the time of Joseph...they are many times worse today.

It should be no surprise then that the apostles and prophets have been persecuted via social media by the members of the church themselves (and many of the words tossed at them at the time when Elder Renlund asked for people to do these thing such as wear masks and social distancing by members were some of the most vile things I've read, and I grew up outside of the CHURCH!...or the things written before they locked it about the Prophet when he asked for members to be vaccinated and showed an example by being vaccinated himself.  These weren't anti-mormons raising Cain against him, these were supposedly faithful members!).

We have a prophet who told us what to do directly in relation to current events.  When we ignore or try to tell others why they should not follow his advice, or try to give others reasons why they should not follow his example...What exactly is the purpose in this?

People complain a LOT about the prophet not talking enough about what is going on in the world today...but when he did (several times) during the recent pandemic and gave advice...

Even on the faithful forums I find people trying to reason why people should NOT get the vaccination by pointing out an exception clause that would normally (like any other exception clause) be for the EXCEPTION...not the norm.

It's like abortion.  Abortion is also discouraged, but I'm sure there are those who read the exception clause and reason that this means it's a woman's right to choose rather than see that this (the situations given) is actually an exception in certain cases and even then should be done with a lot of prayer and listening to the Holy Ghost before simply tossing it out and ignoring the advice from the Church on abortions.

Edited by JohnsonJones
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On 5/15/2022 at 6:43 PM, mirkwood said:

They told us to make our own decision.  They updated the Handbook to say the same.  I think to say otherwise is straining at gnats.

We are told to make decisions on everything, not just vaccinations.

Repentence is actually a choice. 

This life we are given free agency to choose good and evil...and hopefully choose the good.  But we also have the agency to choose evil as well. 

Obviously, we are always going to be able to make decisions.

The BIGGER question is when the Lord looks at us after this life and asks...

Why did you ignore the prophet when he told you what to do?  You remained in good health.  You blatantly taught against it and were said things to encourage others not to get the vaccine if you could convince them not to.  You didn't even try your best to follow the advice.  You didn't do everything in your power to follow it, in fact, just  the opposite.  You were okay, but because you ignored the prophet you caused the death of a dozen different people.  You were not punished for manslaughter in the life before this, but justice must be served.

What will one say if they taught that everyone should seek the exception rather than follow the prophet, implied that it was unsound policies from the Church, and basically went against the example the prophet set?

Will we then say...but there was an exception!!!  And it applies to EVERYONE!!!

I'm sure he will love us, but I'm not sure he's going to accept that as being penitent or trying to follow the prophet in this life...

 

And that can apply to anything we do that we choose to not follow the Lord in.  The Church gives us wide latitude to choose good and evil...with the hope that we choose the good.

 

We could apply it to abortion and the abortion policies.  We could apply it to Homosexual feelings and activities.  We could apply it to daily scripture reading.  There are many policies and advice given that we can apply it to.  None of us are sinless, but I think the Lord will recognize whether we actually TRIED to follow the policies and advice given, or how involved we were in pushing the advice rather than trying to tell people NOT to follow it.  Worse though, is if the damage is not just to ourselves, but to others...how will we justify harm or death to another if it was caused by our teaching others to not follow a policy due to the exceptions clauses (and there are several in the handbook) in more cases then it probably actually applies or blatantly ignoring it when the time of judgement comes?

I think it will come down to a matter of how much we actually did our best.  If we did all we could, I think our lot will be a lot better than if we simply ignored the policies, or even worse, pushed an agenda that tried to counter what the actual intent of the policies were.

But, that's just my thoughts on the matter with no actual real backing.  The Lord loves us all and he saves who he will save.

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The mental calisthenics it took to go from I don't want to take a flu shot to apostate behavior and stoning the prophets surely has left you with some pulled muscles.  This is so far from rational that I don't even begin to know what to say.

Edited by mirkwood
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I am going back to the original topic.  It was my understanding in the days of Noah that there was violence everywhere, a lot of wars.  It has not gotten that way yet in our world but it is slowly getting worse.

And there is also this:  

"And God saw that the wickedness of men had become great in the earth; and every man was lifted up in the imagination of the thoughts of his heart, being only evil continually."  -- Moses 8:22

There are many wicked among us in America but I believe there is also a spiritual awakening going on right now turning people back to the LORD.

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3 hours ago, Still_Small_Voice said:

believe there is also a spiritual awakening going on right now turning people back to the LORD.

I’m not saying you are wrong-but with people leaving organized religion in record numbers, I’m not sure this is the case, sadly. 

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2 hours ago, LDSGator said:

with people leaving organized religion in record numbers

Well, with other people leaving other organized religion in record numbers, maybe.  I mean, folks can always make cases for inactivity, or people who don't believe any more, but don't not-believe enough to have their names removed from the rolls.  But just plain old looking at membership numbers (or in this case, numbers of wards/branches):

 

LDS Membership Statistics 2020 - LDS Church is True Blog

 

We've been tracking what they call a "declining rate of increase".  That means we're still growing, just not as fast.  (Sorry, I can only find 2019 data, but I've seen beancounter threads after April's General Conference where folks crunch the numbers and say we're still baaaaarely growing.

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1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

Well, with other people leaving other organized religion in record numbers, maybe.  I mean, folks can always make cases for inactivity, or people who don't believe any more, but don't not-believe enough to have their names removed from the rolls.  But just plain old looking at membership numbers (or in this case, numbers of wards/branches):

 

LDS Membership Statistics 2020 - LDS Church is True Blog

 

We've been tracking what they call a "declining rate of increase".  That means we're still growing, just not as fast.  (Sorry, I can only find 2019 data, but I've seen beancounter threads after April's General Conference where folks crunch the numbers and say we're still baaaaarely growing.

Good. I think religion is a good thing so I’m hoping that the decline in church affiliation is  overstated.
 

However, I’m not stupid or sticking my head in the sand. The Southern Baptists (the most common religion where I live) are shaking in their boots because of shrinking numbers. For years they thought it (reports of membership decline) was a left wing media conspiracy or they just denied the reports, turned up the music and kept the lights off. Now the problem is far worse because their pride didn’t allow then to accept reality. I hope other churches listen and learn from them. 

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16 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Well, with other people leaving other organized religion in record numbers, maybe.  I mean, folks can always make cases for inactivity, or people who don't believe any more, but don't not-believe enough to have their names removed from the rolls.  But just plain old looking at membership numbers (or in this case, numbers of wards/branches):

 

LDS Membership Statistics 2020 - LDS Church is True Blog

 

We've been tracking what they call a "declining rate of increase".  That means we're still growing, just not as fast.  (Sorry, I can only find 2019 data, but I've seen beancounter threads after April's General Conference where folks crunch the numbers and say we're still baaaaarely growing.

It was bound to happen at some point.

I've got some amazing stories from my missionaries.  Some depressing, some inspiring.  But it is all saying about what we'd expect.  There are still some of His sheep out there waiting to hear the word.  But there are fewer and fewer of them.

I'm also seeing a lot more people getting woke and getting inactive.  If this trend is so aligned, one wonders if there is a correlation.

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