Men of no worth?

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

So, are men just useless now?

It seems that society seems to think so, and it appears as though the church is beginning to think it as well. Men are not allowed to be men. I have been thinking about this since it is men that are always expected to risk their lives in dangerous work and in wars. They are expected to give everything thing they have, even their own lives with no real reward for all that they do. I am so tired of seeing men discounted and tossed away for all that they do.

 

 

[MarginOfError]

26 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

So, are men just useless now?

It seems that society seems to think so, and it appears as though the church is beginning to think it as well. Men are not allowed to be men. I have been thinking about this since it is men that are always expected to risk their lives in dangerous work and in wars. They are expected to give everything thing they have, even their own lives with no real reward for all that they do. I am so tired of seeing men discounted and tossed away for all that they do.

Men in general, no?  But certainly some of them are useless. 

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

So, are men just useless now?

It seems that society seems to think so, and it appears as though the church is beginning to think it as well. Men are not allowed to be men. I have been thinking about this since it is men that are always expected to risk their lives in dangerous work and in wars. They are expected to give everything thing they have, even their own lives with no real reward for all that they do. I am so tired of seeing men discounted and tossed away for all that they do.

 

 

How is the Church beginning to think so?

[Vort]

2 hours ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

So, are men just useless now?

It seems that society seems to think so, and it appears as though the church is beginning to think it as well.

In my experience, the Church membership is less inclined to berate men than it has been during my lifetime. I grew up with the men-are-spiritually-inferior-to-women idea promoted front and center from most of my leaders. This was most often the presumed background to what was going, though certainly not uncommon for leaders to simply say it out loud. Phrases like "women are more sensitive to the Spirit" and "women are more righteous than men/more likely than men to inherit eternal life" were tossed around like a beanbag in a game of hot-potato. It wasn't just the brothers saying this sort of crap; the sisters were more than happy to chime in when asserting their superiority. It was a rare woman indeed who publicly denounced such nonsense.

This teaching was an effort to emotionally manipulate the rising generation, not just in the Church but in larger society. It may or may not have been intentional; I'm sure it went both ways, depending on the individual speaking. I do think it had an unintended effect of alienating and driving away a not-insignificant number of men who simply got tired of hearing how unworthy they are of female respect or even attention.

It is stunning for me to hear young women (e.g. my own nieces) say things like, "I deserve a man who [insert qualification list here, usually including such vital elements as height, weight, and salary minimums]." I want to respond, "Why? What makes you deserve such a man? What does he deserve in a woman?" Maybe I will when the situation next presents itself.

[mikbone]

 

[Anddenex]

I'm inclined to accept your thoughts pertaining to our society. This is a result of specific movements in our society. In the Church, I am more inclined to say it isn't the Church. It is a result of those who profess to belong to the Church.

In part, I believe what we are seeing is the prophecy of Isaiah coming true -- at least a portion. I believe their are multiple reasons for this prophecy by Isaiah, "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." (emphasis mine)

In the Church though, as pertaining to the Church, I don't see any evidence from the Church as to men unable to be men.

 

[LDSGator]

Growing up Catholic we were always told that women were more virtuous and men were…well, basically garbage. I remember a bishop (Catholic rough equal to Stake President) ranting about men will corrupt women and it’s up to women only to keep their virtue. With pearls like that it’s no wonder they can’t keep people in the pews. 

It’s nonsense of course. Anyone who thinks that way has never seen women tease one another into eating disorders or emotionally manipulate men. We’re all grub worms here. 

I knew of one guy who was an EQ president who thought that way-that men are less moral-but no one was listening so it was irrelevant. 

Edited September 9, 2022 by LDSGator

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

4 hours ago, Anddenex said:

I'm inclined to accept your thoughts pertaining to our society. This is a result of specific movements in our society. In the Church, I am more inclined to say it isn't the Church. It is a result of those who profess to belong to the Church.

In part, I believe what we are seeing is the prophecy of Isaiah coming true -- at least a portion. I believe their are multiple reasons for this prophecy by Isaiah, "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." (emphasis mine)

In the Church though, as pertaining to the Church, I don't see any evidence from the Church as to men unable to be men.

 

good points, that is probably more accurate.

[laronius]

Initially Satan encouraged men to treat women as inferior. Then he riled up women to demand to be treated like men. And because women can never be as good at being a man as men are (and vice versa) pressure is then put on men to be less manly in the name of equality. So the end result is non-feminine women and non-masculine men. Satan then puts his hands behind his head and his feet upon his desk and laughs.

[JohnsonJones]

I am the outlier here, though not unexpected.

I ascribe, and still say, woman inherently ARE more righteous and attuned to the spirit. 

Does that mean every woman is more spiritual or attune to the spirit or more righteous than men?

No, it doesn't even mean that even a majority of woman are going to be spiritual or righteous.

Does it mean that men and woman cannot be equally yoked, or that the woman is always more righteous than the man?

Absolutely not.  You can have men that are just as righteous and spiritual.  We hope that they are equal in spirituality and righteousness.

Unfortunately, throughout the past, and in history, we see men more prone to violence, murder, destruction, and all sorts of malicious and nefarious sins against men and heaven.

I think there is a reason that we see more woman stay within the confines of spirituality than we do men, and it is NOT because churches are driving men away, but because men are abandoning the churches and following their own desires instead.

So, I will say I still feel that woman have an inherent part of their character that is able to make it easier for them to draw close to the spirit.

HOWEVER, it does not mean that men are not able to be just as spiritual or righteous.  We have men that are far more righteous than most woman, and there are men that are spiritual giants that lead us.

It may lead to a massive imbalance in heaven though, where those who were righteous will have far more woman that attain the highest degrees of heaven than men.

Edited September 11, 2022 by JohnsonJones

[NoMiddleName]

Connecting ones worth to ones gender is a dicey game. 

[LDSGator]

On 9/10/2022 at 8:53 PM, JohnsonJones said:

I think there is a reason that we see more woman stay within the confines of spirituality than we do men, and it is NOT because churches are driving men away, but because men are abandoning the churches and following their own desires instead.

I obviously don’t know the details nor have I asked every person on earth, but generally speaking the stereotype is that religion attracts more women then men. The reason we laugh at jokes about uber religious church moms like the one Dana Carvey played is because they are so easy to relate to. 

[Carborendum]

Classically, men's primary purpose...

• On a societal level was to support, defend, and provide for women and children.
• On a personal level, they were to emotionally support the women in their lives and provide role models for the children in their lives.

Today, society says that that men...

• Are no longer required to support, defend, or provide for women and children.  And they are told that they don't have any input into the family life that they are required to pay for.
• Are responsible when they allow women and children to be abused (by both men and women).
• Basically that men have no positive input into the growth and future of society.  They are only required when women want to have a baby (on their timetable alone).  Then they wonder why so many men respond in kind.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ says:

• https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/the-family-a-proclamation-to-the-world/the-family-a-proclamation-to-the-world?lang=eng&adobe_mc_ref=https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/the-family-a-proclamation-to-the-world/the-family-a-proclamation-to-the-world?lang=eng&adobe_mc_sdid=SDID=490378AAB579CA33-7E3809CDF14853F5|MCORGID=66C5485451E56AAE0A490D45%40AdobeOrg|TS=1662994583

I really can't say it better myself.

Yes, there is a difference between what society is telling men vs what the Church is telling men.  There is also a huge difference between what they tell women today.

Our job right now is just to be able to survive the next three or four generations and properly rear our children in the gospel.  After that, the other voices will die out from lack of children.  We just have to protect our children from falling into that ideology.

[estradling75]

Men and Women are different.  God designed us that way.  The natural man seeks to take these differences and declare that one is 'better' than the other.  This is a falsehood and used by Satan to alienate us from each other.

 

God doesn't see it that way and he does not want us to see it that way either. Sadly we keep ignoring that.  We keep pointing to things like church attendance or self reported "Spirituality" as if they matter.  We take those 'signs' of righteousness/worthiness when at best they are a glimpse through a glass darkly for us that which God sees clearly.

 

Now some might think that since we are all different then it is possible that these difference might affect some subgroups ability to be 'righteous/worthy/saved etc.   And sure if that was the only thing in play here it might, but it is not.   We are dealing with God here and his Atonement.  The Atonement of Christ takes care of everything we have no control over... including those difference.

 

So anyone that wants think that one gender is better off, is denying or misunderstanding a big aspect of the Atonement of Christ.  ( I do give our leaders a bit of a pass on this, because this can be a hard thing to convey when you have to call some group to repentance, which is also their job)

 

If men (or women or any other subgroup) is truly behind due to things beyond their control (like biology)... then the Atonement of Christ brings them right up to the same starting line as everyone else.

[Carborendum]

This is what I'm talking about.  This is what men are supposed to do.

Do the woke crowd ever cheer this type of behavior?

[Ironhold]

4 hours ago, Carborendum said:

This is what I'm talking about.  This is what men are supposed to do.

Do the woke crowd ever cheer this type of behavior?

Nope. 

Not if the ones I've encountered are anything to go by.

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

6 hours ago, Carborendum said:

This is what I'm talking about.  This is what men are supposed to do.

Do the woke crowd ever cheer this type of behavior?

I did not know that Chic-Fil-a taught courses in Judo?

 My Pleasure.

Edited September 15, 2022 by Emmanuel Goldstein