Is Politics Driving Membership Down?

[prisonchaplain]

There is a generational divide in conservative Christianity: Many young people do not understand how their elders could have voted for someone like the former president. They may not like the alternative, but they bristle--especially at those who speak of the former president in almost messianic terms.

Apparently, this divide exists in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, as well. Leadership is encouraging members to vote intelligently, by looking and candidates and issues, not merely at party affiliation or tradition. Mormon leaders – whose church is often associated with the GOP – push back against one-party politics (theconversation.com).

Thoughts?

[Vort]

6 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

Thoughts?

A deeply ignorant article. Unsurprising; it's not like we aren't used to that. But still irritating. You'd think that a journalist would be more careful, though endless experience has shown this belief to be naive.

[prisonchaplain]

@Vort doesn't appreciate the skills of the journalist who penned the article. OK. How about my guess that some LDS youth are struggling, in the same way as their Evangelical counterparts, with the politics of their elders--especially when it comes to supporting the previous president? 

[scottyg]

That article can also mean those stubborn liberal families that vote straight ticket without actually bothering to see what their conservative neighbors actually believe in. I viewed the church counsel very different from the writer in that all of the young liberal people are ruining everything by not actually looking into the candidates, and just voting with the crowd.

Simply voting straight ticket with no thought is foolish and irresponsible.

[LDSGator]

I’ve heard that it’s the hard right QAnon set that is leaving/toying with leaving because the church has “gone soft” on issues like vaccines, refugees, LGBTQ rights etc 

[mikbone]

Core Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saint doctrine does not depend upon local politics.

It’s a shame when ones testimony is shattered by policy or misinformation.

[Grunt]

1 hour ago, LDSGator said:

I’ve heard that it’s the hard right QAnon set that is leaving/toying with leaving because the church has “gone soft” on issues like vaccines, refugees, LGBTQ rights etc 

I know more people that have left because of the vaccine than I do who left because a leader supported Trump.  

[zil2]

The First Presidency send out this letter encouraging members to participate in the political process (not just vote) around every election.  It seemed obvious to me that the recent change in the letter was because of increasing wickedness in the world.  No longer will you be able to find the best options by voting party lines - nor even the least awful options.  You now have to study more than ever, the individual's history and policies, and choose to support individuals who seem to have integrity and whose views on issues support your own beliefs.

Also, the parties have flipped in at least one way - Democrats now support big pharma and Republicans are highly suspicious of them - it used to be the other way around before COVID.  Who knows, this may continue.

Finally, I suspect that President Oaks now has increased influence over this letter and his insights have tweaked it a bit.

IMO, those who leave the Church would leave regardless of politics or social policy.  These things are the excuse, not the reason.  (Not that we shouldn't do all in our power to ensure we don't increase their excuses or act as the reason - as Paul said to the Romans in our reading this past week, don't put a stumbling block in front of others - but we also should look to the real causes of departure and address those, not just the excuses.)

The good news is that one day, hopefully soon, the world will end.   (In the meantime, I have a cat demanding cuddles.)

[Grunt]

10 hours ago, zil2 said:

 

IMO, those who leave the Church would leave regardless of politics or social policy.  These things are the excuse, not the reason.  (Not that we shouldn't do all in our power to ensure we don't increase their excuses or act as the reason - as Paul said to the Romans in our reading this past week, don't put a stumbling block in front of others - but we also should look to the real causes of departure and address those, not just the excuses.)

 

This is so true.  I'm always amazed at the reasons people leave the Church.  

[Carborendum]

12 hours ago, zil2 said:

IMO, those who leave the Church would leave regardless of politics or social policy.  These things are the excuse, not the reason.

I humbly disagree.  I agree that this was the case in the past (an excuse).  But today, there is another factor that has always been there.  But it has had a much greater effect in this generation.

Children get schooled in secular/gentile ideology for 8 hrs/day.  Seminary was specifically instituted to balance that with additional religious instruction.  In the past, the worldly ideologies in schools were limited.  So, one hour/day was fine -- as long as the students actually paid attention.

Today, the level of secularism and downright demonic ideologies has risen.  In the past, things were merely mentioned.  Today, they are the central topic.  In the past, there were ideas & theories.  Today, it's taught as fact.  And you'd better get on the bandwagon or you'll get cancelled or the teacher will fail you.

Add onto that everything coming out of Hollywood (c.f. Disney Wokeness thread) the government involvement in social media and the banking industry to push the ideology...

No, today, it is no longer an excuse.  They've bought into the ideology that is in complete opposition to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

People used to be able to still claim some level of belief, but they just couldn't get past certain principles or certain questions.  Those ended up being "excuses."  But today, it is that they've been spoon fed a steady diet of ideology that is demonic.  So, how on earth could they remain a Saint?

Then it has a secondary effect.  Too many parents today see their children being effected by this.  But instead of trying to bring their children back, they start the denialism.  If their own children have been caught up in this, then it can't be that bad.  There must be a purpose to this.  So, maybe the prophets are wrong. They're not infallible after all...  And the justification begins the process toward eventual, complete apostasy.

At the end of the day, it may not make a difference.  Both routes tend to be in the "blinded by the craftiness of men" category.  But this latest development is having a much broader effect than things in the past.

Edited August 21, 2023 by Carborendum

[zil2]

34 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

They've bought into the ideology that is in complete opposition to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

This was my point - people leave the Church because they are not converted to the restored gospel of Jesus Christ.  That's the reason.  Everything else is just what they say to justify leaving.  Yes, many these days are or will be deceived, others will decide they like sin better (though they won't likely put it in those terms), others will say it's too hard, etc. etc.  But the reason they leave is because they have not been converted.  The way to address the problem is as Alma taught: with the preaching of the Word.

[The Folk Prophet]

“Merely voting a straight ticket or voting based on ‘tradition’ without careful study of candidates and their positions on important issues is a threat to democracy and inconsistent with revealed standards,”

After careful study of candidates and their positions on important issues...I end up voting pretty much a straight ticket.

I don't like the Republican party at all. So when and if I find a Democrat who supports positions of good and right....well....they wouldn't be a Democrat any more now, would they?

As far as voting independent or other parties....sure... it could happen.

[Vort]

The last time I voted for an independent candidate, I voted for Gary Johnson. Not my finest moment. There are plenty—PLENTY—of Republicans that I would vote against. But off the top of my head, I can't think of even a single Democrat I would be willing to vote for. Thus, as TFP points out, I effectively vote a straight ticket, because I cannot in good conscience vote any other way.

[The Folk Prophet]

18 hours ago, Vort said:

A deeply ignorant article. Unsurprising; it's not like we aren't used to that. But still irritating. You'd think that a journalist would be more careful, though endless experience has shown this belief to be naive.

 

18 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

@Vort doesn't appreciate the skills of the journalist who penned the article. OK. How about my guess that some LDS youth are struggling, in the same way as their Evangelical counterparts, with the politics of their elders--especially when it comes to supporting the previous president? 

I'm not sure it's "skill" that's the issue.

I'm sure the "journalist" who wrote the article is perfectly capable of writing something that isn't entirely ignorant and ridiculously biased.

[Vort]

19 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

@Vort doesn't appreciate the skills of the journalist who penned the article. OK. How about my guess that some LDS youth are struggling, in the same way as their Evangelical counterparts, with the politics of their elders--especially when it comes to supporting the previous president? 

To be clear, I did not take offense at the journalist's characterizations. I don't think he had any intent to write a hit piece against the Church. I just bemoan, not so much deep ignorance, but the seeming utter lack of actually doing the research necessary to write authoritatively or at least competently on a topic. I realize that your typical news article is not War and Peace or a peer-reviewed work; I don't expect that. But do we not have editors any more? Is critical thinking no longer taught at institutes of higher education?

[Vort]

And to answer your question, @prisonchaplain: Yes, Latter-day Saint youth (and adults) struggle with the politics of their elders and their contemporaries. There is plenty of Trump dislike among Latter-day Saints, though to be sure he has his staunch defenders as well. It seems to me that many Saints fall on the political spectrum somewhere near the point where you hold your nose and vote for Trump, because he's the best of a bad lot.

You may be aware that the Book of Mormon mentions a king named Morianton who arose among the ancient people of Jared. A descendant of a previous king named Riplakish who was tremendously wicked and led his people to destruction and ruin, Morianton again united the people through war, installed himself as king, and then ruled in a profitable and apparently just manner, so that the people anointed him to be king (that is, he was king not just by the right of warfare but by the consent of the people). But the tale of the Jaredite Morianton* includes an interesting observation: Morianton himself was a wicked man due to his "many whoredoms", and was cut off from the Lord. Ether 10:9-11 reads:

And it came to pass after the space of many years, Morianton, (he being a descendant of Riplakish) gathered together an army of outcasts, and went forth and gave battle unto the people; and he gained power over many cities; and the war became exceedingly sore, and did last for the space of many years; and he did gain power over all the land, and did establish himself king over all the land. And after that he had established himself king he did ease the burden of the people, by which he did gain favor in the eyes of the people, and they did anoint him to be their king. And he did do justice unto the people, but not unto himself because of his many whoredoms; wherefore he was cut off from the presence of the Lord.

I have heard many of the Saints, including myself, compare Trump to Morianton. Given the choice between Morianton and Riplakish, who would you choose? Morianton, of course. The Saints don't celebrate Trump's vainglorious rantings, but life under President Trump was simply better than under President Biden. If Trump is Morianton, Biden is Riplakish. The Saints, and Americans in general, don't have to love Trump in order to vote for him. They can be indifferent toward him or even dislike him and still conclude he is by far the best available option.

Unless real evidence of deep corruption by Trump arises (and the current news stories about Trump are mostly hit pieces with lots of allegations, while the same news agencies studiously ignore the abundant, well-attested corruption of Biden and the Democrats), I will almost certainly vote for Trump should he win the Republican nomination. He's not my first choice, but after seeing what he accomplished as President when I didn't vote for him in 2016, I refuse to discount the man.

Btw, Trump's idea to purchase Greenland was brilliant. He should have followed through. When the Netherland government so condescendingly told him that Greenlanders were in charge of their own destiny, he should immediately have approached them (the Greenlanders) with a buyout offer. The art of the deal and all that. It would have been the greatest acquisition since Alaska.

*Note that the earlier Book of Mormon narrative (of a much later time period) mentions a Morianton among the Nephites who founded a city and created contention. The two Moriantons are separated by culture, language, and time (centuries, probably), so even though both were wicked, don't confuse them.

Edited August 21, 2023 by Vort

[Backroads]

I'm the type that usually has a hodge-podge on my voting slip, but I think straight ticket voting gets a bad rap it doesn't deserve.

Voting straight-ticket is often a great way to show your general political values you want represented. You may not like everyone and everything, but you like the general track record of the party.

[Grunt]

I'm not a fan of either party, as entities, but there is typically only one party party that I can vote for.

[prisonchaplain]

23 minutes ago, Vort said:

To be clear, I did not take offense at the journalist's characterizations. I don't think he had any intent to write a hit piece against the Church. I just bemoan, not so much deep ignorance, but the seeming utter lack of actually doing the research necessary to write authoritatively or at least competently on a topic. I realize that your typical news article is not War and Peace or a peer-reviewed work; I don't expect that. But do we not have editors any more? Is critical thinking no longer taught at institutes of higher education?

To be fair, this linked article was not from a better known source. Often smaller outlets cut corners on editing. Nevertheless, the answer to your last two questions is mostly no. 😞

[Jamie123]

11 minutes ago, Vort said:

And to answer your question, @Jamie123: Yes, Latter-day Saint youth (and adults) struggle with the politics of their elders and their contemporaries.

 I don't think I asked a question in this thread. Are you sure you don't mean someone else?

[prisonchaplain]

10 minutes ago, Backroads said:

I'm the type that usually has a hodge-podge on my voting slip, but I think straight ticket voting gets a bad rap it doesn't deserve.

Voting straight-ticket is often a great way to show your general political values you want represented. You may not like everyone and everything, but you like the general track record of the party.

I've argued for straight-ticket voting a lot in the past. This year is different--for both parties. So many are upset with who we believe the two final candidates will be. I generally favor one party--strongly. The philosophical differences are stark. BUT, this year I'm at a loss. 

[Vort]

Just now, Jamie123 said:

12 minutes ago, Vort said:

And to answer your question, @Jamie123: Yes, Latter-day Saint youth (and adults) struggle with the politics of their elders and their contemporaries.

 I don't think I asked a question in this thread. Are you sure you don't mean someone else?

Sorry, @prisonchaplain. Misattribution on my part. I was reading and thinking about another thread along with this one, a thread that @Jamie123 started, and I didn't bother to, you know, think clearly. My apologies.

[LDSGator]

6 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

BUT, this year I'm at a loss

Same. 

[Vort]

BTW, I'm very happy to hear it, @Jamie123. I sincerely hope things are trending upward for you. As we say in America, you've had a hard row to hoe.

Edited August 21, 2023 by Vort

[Grunt]

39 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

I've argued for straight-ticket voting a lot in the past. This year is different--for both parties. So many are upset with who we believe the two final candidates will be. I generally favor one party--strongly. The philosophical differences are stark. BUT, this year I'm at a loss. 

Why are you at a loss?   I assume you mean the final two candidates will be Trump and Biden.  They've each had 4 years in the Oval Office.  I'm curious what you would struggle with in a general election?   

I'm intentionally leaving out the primary.   I'm currently torn between two candidates.