Looking for help Posted January 21 Report Share Posted January 21 Hi. I’m a life-long LDS member outside of a break from the church from ages 14-21. I’m in my 30’s now, sealed in the temple with three young kids, and have remained very active over the last 12+ years since I came back from my “break”. I have struggled over a multi-year period on the question if God is real. The point of this post is not to try and convince anyone that God is not real, I genuinely want to believe that He is and am looking for people to help me work through this issue. The nagging question that has dominated my mind is if men have made up religion over time to help themselves feel better about, and give purpose to, life. Everyone wants to know why they are on the earth, how they got here, where they go after. I understand logically that religion provides answers to these questions and that these answers (if believed faithfully) give us peace and purpose. What I can’t get out of my head is what if all these things were made up specifically to fill those gaps but is not true. I’m not calling anyone a liar or saying anyone is pretending to believe - I absolutely believe the leaders of our church (and most members) truly do believe it all and are not trying to mislead us in any way. I desperately wish that I didn’t have these doubts, but I do. What is life is just completely random and the bad things that happen to us are not part of a plan? What if all the suffering (a child dying, losing jobs, etc.) has no silver lining and are just random happenings that will make our lives worse. I struggle to see how God could allow a lot of things that happen in the world everyday - there are so many places where people suffer and die from hunger, people are regularly beaten and raped. A family with young children loses a mom or a dad. How can that be a part of God’s plan in any way? There are other more scientific questions about the Big Bang theory, dinosaurs existing, evolution, etc. that seem to be real things and in my mind and conflict with LDS beliefs. A lot of places where the LDS answer is that “we don’t know why these things happen”, but we should believe there is a reason. One of the parts where this messes with me the most is with death (if not obvious from my examples given above). I love my wife and kids more than anything, but what if there is no afterlife? What if I’m one random act (a car crash for example) away from losing a child, and if there is no afterlife then I will never be with them again? If there is no afterlife and I die in a car crash, what happens next to me? Blackness for ever? A natural defense for someone (especially a life-long member) to know that God is real is to think back on the spiritual experiences they have had as proof that God exists. But what if these experiences were figments of our own imagination that we have convinced ourselves of and didn’t actually happen? It is easy for me to see that believing in God / religion results in a better life overall - navigating all of life’s trials and tribulations is 100x easier if we believe that it is all a part of God’s plan; if we believe that all bad things that happen in the world are for a reason and all make sense / work for the best from the perspective of an omniscient God. A few years ago I came to the conclusion that I would not be able to PROVE God was real, but I also wouldn’t be able to prove the opposite. So if I can’t take solace in any spiritual experiences I’ve had to date because I’m worried that they were made up in my head, then since it can’t be PROVEN one way or the other, it’s simply a choice of believing or not. I am trying to choose to believe but it has been difficult to not let these doubts take over. I have tried to pray for confirmation but the thought of spiritual experiences possibly being made up is probably blocking that from happening. On a separate note, I have both lived in accordance with the gospel and have done the opposite, and can say I have a strong testimony that following things like the word of wisdom, our views on family / marriage. etc. will result in a happier life while on this earth. I have not deviated from these beliefs and regardless if I think God is real, I know this is the blueprint for the most happy / successful life on earth. So that is the core of my testimony for now: 1. I am trying to choose to believe that God is real (despite the doubts I have) and that everything the LDS church teaches is true. And 2. That following the gospel way of living will continue to bring the most happiness throughout life. I know this has been a long post and a bit all over the place, so thanks for sticking with me if you have. As I said above, I wish I didn’t have these doubts, but I do, and I’m trying to figure it all out. I would be grateful for any thoughts you have that may help me as I continue to try and work through this. MrShorty, zil2, mikbone and 1 other 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDSGator Posted January 21 Report Share Posted January 21 https://www.ldsliving.com/read-a-never-before-seen-letter-to-a-doubter-by-hugh-b-brown/s/79033 Even some of the apostles struggled with doubt my friend. You are not alone. pam 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zil2 Posted January 21 Report Share Posted January 21 Welcome to ThirdHour, @Looking for help! First, know that you aren't the first to struggle with this particular doubt - Satan may try to convince us that our problems are unique and we're all alone, but that's not true. Next, I have to go get ready for Church soon, so my thoughts will be delayed (and the cat is actively hindering my typing - I suspect I'm about to get bitten), but I will share my thoughts later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikbone Posted January 21 Report Share Posted January 21 (edited) Welcome! It sure makes it much easier when a person recognizes that living your life in accordance with gospel principles is more rewarding than not. The Plan of Salvation was designed by God to prevent it from being proved with the scientific method on purpose. The tower of babel didn’t allow men to conquer God. And no telescope or scientific discovery will ever be able to peer behind the veil. But just because you can’t prove the existence of Jesus doesn’t mean that He isn’t there. I’m not aware of any device that can quantify joy, despair, lust, love, remorse, shame, repentance, or forgiveness. Yet I (and you) know that they exist. You can cultivate more spirituality in your life by prayer, reading the scriptures, trying to become more like the master, and providing service to others. It works. It always does if sincere. And there is more evidence that Jesus Christ lived, died, and was resurrected then there is of the Big Bang, Dark Matter, and that Man evolved from pond scum. The following are two Jeffrey R. Holland talks that I recommend for your case. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2013/04/lord-i-believe?lang=eng https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2009/10/safety-for-the-soul?lang=eng Edited January 21 by mikbone zil2 and mordorbund 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prisonchaplain Posted January 21 Report Share Posted January 21 VERITAS. What is truth? Better to live in a dystopian reality than a faux paradise. So, is God real? Is He the one, eternal, all-knowing, everywhere-present God we've been taught about? One journey that might help is to look into the design of the world. In other words, things fit together too neatly to be chance, or unguided evolution. To learn more, see: Discovery Institute | Public policy think tank advancing a culture of purpose, creativity, and innovation. zil2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CV75 Posted January 21 Report Share Posted January 21 12 hours ago, Looking for help said: Hi. I’m a life-long LDS member outside of a break from the church from ages 14-21. I’m in my 30’s now, sealed in the temple with three young kids, and have remained very active over the last 12+ years since I came back from my “break”. I have struggled over a multi-year period on the question if God is real. The point of this post is not to try and convince anyone that God is not real, I genuinely want to believe that He is and am looking for people to help me work through this issue. The nagging question that has dominated my mind is if men have made up religion over time to help themselves feel better about, and give purpose to, life. Everyone wants to know why they are on the earth, how they got here, where they go after. I understand logically that religion provides answers to these questions and that these answers (if believed faithfully) give us peace and purpose. What I can’t get out of my head is what if all these things were made up specifically to fill those gaps but is not true. I’m not calling anyone a liar or saying anyone is pretending to believe - I absolutely believe the leaders of our church (and most members) truly do believe it all and are not trying to mislead us in any way. I desperately wish that I didn’t have these doubts, but I do. What is life is just completely random and the bad things that happen to us are not part of a plan? What if all the suffering (a child dying, losing jobs, etc.) has no silver lining and are just random happenings that will make our lives worse. I struggle to see how God could allow a lot of things that happen in the world everyday - there are so many places where people suffer and die from hunger, people are regularly beaten and raped. A family with young children loses a mom or a dad. How can that be a part of God’s plan in any way? There are other more scientific questions about the Big Bang theory, dinosaurs existing, evolution, etc. that seem to be real things and in my mind and conflict with LDS beliefs. A lot of places where the LDS answer is that “we don’t know why these things happen”, but we should believe there is a reason. One of the parts where this messes with me the most is with death (if not obvious from my examples given above). I love my wife and kids more than anything, but what if there is no afterlife? What if I’m one random act (a car crash for example) away from losing a child, and if there is no afterlife then I will never be with them again? If there is no afterlife and I die in a car crash, what happens next to me? Blackness for ever? A natural defense for someone (especially a life-long member) to know that God is real is to think back on the spiritual experiences they have had as proof that God exists. But what if these experiences were figments of our own imagination that we have convinced ourselves of and didn’t actually happen? It is easy for me to see that believing in God / religion results in a better life overall - navigating all of life’s trials and tribulations is 100x easier if we believe that it is all a part of God’s plan; if we believe that all bad things that happen in the world are for a reason and all make sense / work for the best from the perspective of an omniscient God. A few years ago I came to the conclusion that I would not be able to PROVE God was real, but I also wouldn’t be able to prove the opposite. So if I can’t take solace in any spiritual experiences I’ve had to date because I’m worried that they were made up in my head, then since it can’t be PROVEN one way or the other, it’s simply a choice of believing or not. I am trying to choose to believe but it has been difficult to not let these doubts take over. I have tried to pray for confirmation but the thought of spiritual experiences possibly being made up is probably blocking that from happening. On a separate note, I have both lived in accordance with the gospel and have done the opposite, and can say I have a strong testimony that following things like the word of wisdom, our views on family / marriage. etc. will result in a happier life while on this earth. I have not deviated from these beliefs and regardless if I think God is real, I know this is the blueprint for the most happy / successful life on earth. So that is the core of my testimony for now: 1. I am trying to choose to believe that God is real (despite the doubts I have) and that everything the LDS church teaches is true. And 2. That following the gospel way of living will continue to bring the most happiness throughout life. I know this has been a long post and a bit all over the place, so thanks for sticking with me if you have. As I said above, I wish I didn’t have these doubts, but I do, and I’m trying to figure it all out. I would be grateful for any thoughts you have that may help me as I continue to try and work through this. Alma 32 offers a way to sort through the “what ifs” and conclude for yourself what is real since all experience is ultimately processed “in your head”. zil2 and Anddenex 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zil2 Posted January 21 Report Share Posted January 21 (edited) OK, back from Church and kitty is bird-watching. I think you've got some great replies, and I think you'll need to help us out with where you want this discussion to go. I'm basically going to throw various thoughts in the ring and you'll have to figure out which to pursue, if any... As has already been noted, we can't convince you or prove anything to you, but that doesn't mean you can't become convinced or have the reality of God proven to you - this is the job of the Holy Ghost. The more experience you can gain with the Holy Ghost, and you'll have to work at it, the more knowledge you will gain from him. These verses come to mind: Quote D&C 46:13 To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world. 14 To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful. This makes it clear, to me at least, that people receive varying witnesses of the truth and receive them in varying ways (some interpret v13 as "seeing Christ in person" or some such, but that's not what it says - it says they're given knowledge through the Holy Ghost), and others, for reasons we don't know, don't receive this same witness (per v14). Whether that lasts a lifetime or whether eventually they receive a witness like that described in v13, I don't know, and I suppose varies by person. But you shouldn't feel singled out, less, or any other negative thing - it appears to be one of your trials in life (other people will have their own struggles and doubts). To me, verse 14 is the Lord telling you, "I know your trial, but be faithful and you will also have eternal life." You have already learned part of this lesson: Quote John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. ...in that you've said: 20 hours ago, Looking for help said: It is easy for me to see that believing in God / religion results in a better life overall - navigating all of life’s trials and tribulations is 100x easier if we believe that it is all a part of God’s plan; if we believe that all bad things that happen in the world are for a reason and all make sense / work for the best from the perspective of an omniscient God. ... On a separate note, I have both lived in accordance with the gospel and have done the opposite, and can say I have a strong testimony that following things like the word of wisdom, our views on family / marriage. etc. will result in a happier life while on this earth. I have not deviated from these beliefs and regardless if I think God is real, I know this is the blueprint for the most happy / successful life on earth. I think some time spent pondering the above might help. There are a lot of people out there who will disagree with your observations. They'll say these things that you say make life better and easier actually make them miserable or are too hard or restrictive or no fun, or whatever. Consider that the above doesn't happen without the dedication and sacrifice - at least, it won't last long without the dedication and sacrifice. So you might ponder how much of the Church's teachings you're living - covenant-keeping: studying the word of God, paying tithes and offerings, attending meetings and the temple, ministering, serving in callings, prayer, etc. If you're doing all those things, do you think you would have the same experience not doing those things and just being a "good husband and father and an honest person"? Or do you think all those things the LDS are taught to do are required to find the testimony you express above? I personally do not believe that in the absence of God, any human would organize anything like a faith that requires such sacrifice in time, effort, and personal change. Rather, they'd devise religions that give them power and pleasure - religions that justify or even glorify what we call sin. There's no shortage of evidence for this from both history and the modern world. I think it takes a God to come up with the idea that whosoever would be greatest should be your servant. Mankind, left to their own devices comes up with fertility cults instead. (More thoughts will come in more replies.) Edited January 22 by zil2 Anddenex and mordorbund 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zil2 Posted January 21 Report Share Posted January 21 Oh, I forgot. If I could give you only one piece of advice, and if you have the energy to follow only one piece of advice, let it be this one: form a habit of being in the Book of Mormon every day. It should be easier this year since it's the Come, Follow Me subject, but resolve now to become the sort of person who is in the Book of Mormon every day. When this year is over, continue to spend time every day in the Book of Mormon. Track it, if you need to. Invite your family to join you (I believe it will bless all your lives). Spend however much time you can, but focus on becoming the sort of person who is in the Book of Mormon every day. I believe this has more power to bless your life and bring you the witness you desire than any other single approach, assuming it's done with an honest / willing heart. And I feel inclined to add an anecdote here, so I will. There came a time, some years ago, when I wanted to change my heart, but I had no idea how. So I prayed for God to change my heart. I prayed for this in every prayer I had any part in, regardless of whether I was the one praying and regardless of the purpose of the prayer - over food, the sacrament prayers, prayers to open and close meetings, personal prayers, you name it - if I wasn't alone, I prayed for it silently in my heart. In between prayers I did what I could to live the gospel. I prayed for two years - every single prayer. After two years, as I was drifting off to sleep one night, I realized, "Huh, I'm changed." It had happened slowly, without my realizing it. I hadn't done a thing (other than ask for it and live the gospel). The Lord did it all. I'm not saying this will / won't happen for you, just giving it as an example, that sometimes, the Lord takes his time (maybe sometimes we're so dense that it requires a long time), but don't be afraid to "weary the Lord" with your pleading, and don't give up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zil2 Posted January 21 Report Share Posted January 21 (edited) Some of what I'll call the "negatives"... 18 hours ago, Looking for help said: What is life is just completely random and the bad things that happen to us are not part of a plan? What if all the suffering (a child dying, losing jobs, etc.) has no silver lining and are just random happenings that will make our lives worse. If it is, then logic says you should live in whichever way yields the best experience. A couple of times, you have indicated that in your experience, living the gospel of Jesus Christ has yielded the best experience for you. (IMO, this is a witness for the truth of the gospel - it yields fruit.) Anyway, there's nothing you can do about it - either we're all the product of random chance or we are the work and glory of God and nothing you or I do can change it. Personally, I'd say it's pointless, therefore, to worry over it (but I know this attitude doesn't work for everyone). 18 hours ago, Looking for help said: I struggle to see how God could allow a lot of things that happen in the world everyday This probably deserves a whole separate response. Let us know if you want to go down this route. The short answer is that there's no shortage of explanations for why God allows bad things to happen, and they are found in the scriptures. If you start looking for them - in part by studying when bad things happen in scripture - you'll find them, but I'm game to dig up some and share them, if you want to go there - it might make a good new thread. You certainly aren't the only person to struggle with this - it's one of the biggest questions everyone everywhere has. 18 hours ago, Looking for help said: There are other more scientific questions about the Big Bang theory, dinosaurs existing, evolution, etc. that seem to be real things and in my mind and conflict with LDS beliefs. Love what @mikbone had to say here, but note that I find nothing conflicting between these and LDS beliefs. E.g. the book of Abraham makes it clear that the creation happened in six divisions of unrevealed duration (not six 24-hour days - or at least, not necessarily). I have no problem with dinosaurs being in there somewhere. I have no issue with in-species evolution - though I'm not convinced there's solid evidence of one-species-to-another evolution. Even if there is, and this is how God went about creating stuff, so what? Does that make God any less God? I don't think so. Check this out: Quote Abraham 4:20 And the Gods said: Let us prepare the waters to bring forth abundantly the moving creatures that have life; and the fowl, that they may fly above the earth in the open expanse of heaven. It doesn't say, "Let's put fish in them waters." Read it carefully. Prepare the water to bring forth life. Doesn't that sound an awful lot like how folks describe the start of evolution? Big Bang? Maybe that's how God created this universe. Again, so what? Do you know something that refutes it? Cuz the creation stories don't in my mind (and anyway, those stories aren't meant to be technical manuals for creation, they're meant to teach us about God, his ways, and the purpose of our mortal existence). (As you may have noted, I'm pretty flexible on stuff I have no control over, stuff I can't figure out in my lifetime, and stuff that isn't going to directly and immediately impact my salvation - I've got covenants to worry about - that will take up the rest of my life... Not meaning to be dismissive of your concerns, just relating how I think of these things.) 18 hours ago, Looking for help said: If there is no afterlife and I die in a car crash, what happens next to me? Blackness for ever? If there is no afterlife, nothing happens next to you (though your lifeless body will be disposed of somehow, by someone). You won't be around any more to care. You won't experience blissful oblivion or blackness or nothingness or anything else - you just won't be anymore. (Klaw is done bird-watching and has taken up resting on my left arm. We'll see whether he allows me to type my next reply... Nope, now lying on my right arm threatening to bite me... ) Edited January 22 by zil2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zil2 Posted January 21 Report Share Posted January 21 The rest... 10 hours ago, Looking for help said: it’s simply a choice of believing or not. I am trying to choose to believe but it has been difficult to not let these doubts take over. Faith and belief are always choices, even for those of us who have witnesses from the Holy Ghost. We all have to make the decision either to act in faith or to act on our doubts. I love President Uchtdorf's talk wherein he said "doubt your doubts". 10 hours ago, Looking for help said: I have tried to pray for confirmation but the thought of spiritual experiences possibly being made up is probably blocking that from happening. Indeed, our own doubts can stand in the way. I would encourage you to keep trying, and perhaps pray for something a little different (though, of course, I don't know what exactly you prayed). Consider this counsel from President Nelson (bold is mine): Quote “If you are not sure you even believe in God, start there. Understand that in the absence of experiences with God, one can doubt the existence of God. So, put yourself in a position to begin having experiences with Him. Humble yourself. Pray to have eyes to see God’s hand in your life and in the world around you. Ask Him to tell you if He is really there—if He knows you. Ask Him how He feels about you. And then listen.” ...and pretty much the same (President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles Nelson): Quote Therefore, my first recommendation is to learn for yourselves who you really are. Ask your Heavenly Father in the name of Jesus Christ how He feels about you and your mission here on earth. If you ask with real intent, over time the Spirit will whisper the life-changing truth to you. Record those impressions, review them often, and follow through with exactness. ...and finally, another avenue of approach that may yield fruit - seeking witness of your identity (also President Nelson): Quote Now, let us turn the question to you. Who are you? First and foremost, you are a child of God. Second, as a member of the Church, you are a child of the covenant. And third, you are a disciple of Jesus Christ. That's all I've got for now. I've probably overwhelmed you with replies. Sorry. Take what's useful, if any of it, and don't worry about the rest - I won't be offended and don't need a direct response to any of it. I wish you all the best and look forward to interacting with you on the forums (when Klaw allows.... ). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laronius Posted January 21 Report Share Posted January 21 Alma 32:27 ...even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe... It sounds like this is where you are at. I underlined "until" because there is no set timetable for how long this phase lasts. Just know it is a recognized step in the process of developing strong faith. So don't fret over not having the faith you wish you had, you are already on the path that will get you there. Just keep desiring. 16 hours ago, Looking for help said: But what if these experiences were figments of our own imagination that we have convinced ourselves of and didn’t actually happen? I'm going to be really frank here. This mindset is pointless. It's a rabbit hole to nihilism. What if nothing was real? Then what's the point? Even Satan's warped plan for us had more merit than this line of thinking. At least he'd force us to believe something. Concerning the spiritual experiences you've had: Alma 32:34-35 ...ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and your mind doth begin to expand. O then, is not this real? I say unto you, Yea, because it is light; and whatsoever is light, is good, because it is discernible... The joy and peace you've experienced was real because it was light. This is a subject you might want to study because light defines our very existence and purpose on earth. At the end of the day though believing is a choice. You can either choose to believe or choose not to. Perhaps you just need to make that choice and allow God the chance to prove you right. zil2 and Anddenex 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted January 22 Report Share Posted January 22 On 1/20/2024 at 10:45 PM, Looking for help said: Hi. I’m a life-long LDS member outside of a break from the church from ages 14-21. I’m in my 30’s now, sealed in the temple with three young kids, and have remained very active over the last 12+ years since I came back from my “break”. I have struggled over a multi-year period on the question if God is real. The point of this post is not to try and convince anyone that God is not real, I genuinely want to believe that He is and am looking for people to help me work through this issue. The nagging question that has dominated my mind is if men have made up religion over time to help themselves feel better about, and give purpose to, life. Everyone wants to know why they are on the earth, how they got here, where they go after. I understand logically that religion provides answers to these questions and that these answers (if believed faithfully) give us peace and purpose. What I can’t get out of my head is what if all these things were made up specifically to fill those gaps but is not true. I’m not calling anyone a liar or saying anyone is pretending to believe - I absolutely believe the leaders of our church (and most members) truly do believe it all and are not trying to mislead us in any way. I desperately wish that I didn’t have these doubts, but I do. What is life is just completely random and the bad things that happen to us are not part of a plan? What if all the suffering (a child dying, losing jobs, etc.) has no silver lining and are just random happenings that will make our lives worse. I struggle to see how God could allow a lot of things that happen in the world everyday - there are so many places where people suffer and die from hunger, people are regularly beaten and raped. A family with young children loses a mom or a dad. How can that be a part of God’s plan in any way? There are other more scientific questions about the Big Bang theory, dinosaurs existing, evolution, etc. that seem to be real things and in my mind and conflict with LDS beliefs. A lot of places where the LDS answer is that “we don’t know why these things happen”, but we should believe there is a reason. One of the parts where this messes with me the most is with death (if not obvious from my examples given above). I love my wife and kids more than anything, but what if there is no afterlife? What if I’m one random act (a car crash for example) away from losing a child, and if there is no afterlife then I will never be with them again? If there is no afterlife and I die in a car crash, what happens next to me? Blackness for ever? A natural defense for someone (especially a life-long member) to know that God is real is to think back on the spiritual experiences they have had as proof that God exists. But what if these experiences were figments of our own imagination that we have convinced ourselves of and didn’t actually happen? It is easy for me to see that believing in God / religion results in a better life overall - navigating all of life’s trials and tribulations is 100x easier if we believe that it is all a part of God’s plan; if we believe that all bad things that happen in the world are for a reason and all make sense / work for the best from the perspective of an omniscient God. A few years ago I came to the conclusion that I would not be able to PROVE God was real, but I also wouldn’t be able to prove the opposite. So if I can’t take solace in any spiritual experiences I’ve had to date because I’m worried that they were made up in my head, then since it can’t be PROVEN one way or the other, it’s simply a choice of believing or not. I am trying to choose to believe but it has been difficult to not let these doubts take over. I have tried to pray for confirmation but the thought of spiritual experiences possibly being made up is probably blocking that from happening. On a separate note, I have both lived in accordance with the gospel and have done the opposite, and can say I have a strong testimony that following things like the word of wisdom, our views on family / marriage. etc. will result in a happier life while on this earth. I have not deviated from these beliefs and regardless if I think God is real, I know this is the blueprint for the most happy / successful life on earth. So that is the core of my testimony for now: 1. I am trying to choose to believe that God is real (despite the doubts I have) and that everything the LDS church teaches is true. And 2. That following the gospel way of living will continue to bring the most happiness throughout life. I know this has been a long post and a bit all over the place, so thanks for sticking with me if you have. As I said above, I wish I didn’t have these doubts, but I do, and I’m trying to figure it all out. I would be grateful for any thoughts you have that may help me as I continue to try and work through this. Greetings and welcome @Looking for help : I am a retired scientist and engineer from the field of industrial automation, robotics and artificial intelligence. I am dyslectic and have difficulty understanding anything to be real that is not logical and the result of logic. As a scientist, I do not find any logic to support believe in anything being random – only that random is an arrogant excuse for not understanding the cause – this includes quantum physics. Our universe is hostile to life as we know it here on earth and as, yet we have not found any possibility for intelligent life (as we know it) to exist anywhere else – let alone evolve. There is a second law of thermodynamics that asserts that complex orders – especially evolving from singularity is a scientific impossibility. I would submit that the only possibility to the simplistic uniform order of our complex universe is the result of intelligent cause. That the complexity of the simplistic order of our solar system resulting in life on earth is as much evidence of intelligence as finding a working clock in the middle of a barren desert. Even if we suppose that there is no G-d and that intelligent life is the evolutionary result of some random chance – science dictates two important principles. Anything that can or does happen can be engineered to happen. In other words, anything that can happen by some chance can be intelligently duplicated and caused to happen. The second principle is that if intelligent life can evolve – that intelligent life can evolve to eventually intelligently duplicate anything that has happened. This means that even if there is no G-d one must accept that if evolution is possible - it is inevitable that intelligence would evolve the capabilities of G-d. Thus, by the principle of Occam’s razor G-d must exist because science and evolution demands it as a possibility. As a covenant member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints – I have come to the conclusion (as an explanation of why) that only in the LDS teaching do we find sufficient explanation for why in life. That there was a pre-existence (first estate) where each individual human life on planet earth was planned and that there is an estate beyond death where all things are reconciled. Otherwise, there is no reason to believe in intelligence, justice, liberty or freedom unless there is a pre-existence and an existence after death. There is no reason to believe in any purpose, logic, science, coincidence, hope or reason for concern for global warming, politics, education, love or knowledge unliess intelligence is trancendent. There is no logic to birth as a beginning of intelligence or death as an end of intelligence. The Traveler Anddenex, NeuroTypical and zil2 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmarklin Posted January 23 Report Share Posted January 23 The only real way to know about the things of God are spiritually, by prayer. Only the faith of the 1847 Pioneers got them across the Plains to Utah. That faith was hard earned through Prayer. The invitation of Moroni: 4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would aask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not btrue; and if ye shall ask with a csincere heart, with dreal intent, having efaith in Christ, he will fmanifest the gtruth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. 5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may aknow the btruth of all things. laronius, SilentOne, Anddenex and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Still_Small_Voice Posted January 24 Report Share Posted January 24 One small part of my faith is the law of Entropy. The law of Entropy is the natural tendency of things to lose order. Left to its own devices, life will always become less structured. Sand castles get washed away. Weeds overtake gardens. Ancient ruins crumble. Cars begin to rust. People gradually age. With enough time, even mountains erode and their precise edges become rounded. The inevitable trend is that things become less organized. The Universe has so much order in it as do many things on this Earth. How did this get organized amid the chaos? My answer is the God of the Universe. The main reason I believe is the continual witness of the Holy Ghost in my life and my work with the LORD God. He is always there for me to help and lift me up. Daily prayer and scripture study keep me in touch with Him. zil2, mikbone, mrmarklin and 2 others 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misfit Posted January 26 Report Share Posted January 26 (edited) On 1/21/2024 at 1:01 PM, prisonchaplain said: Edited January 27 by misfit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted January 26 Report Share Posted January 26 3 hours ago, misfit said: Eternal - yes. All-knowing - yes. Everywhere present - I say He is only because of His Messengers - Angels. We all have doubts. Why do you not have any doubt in your statement: "We all have doubts."? The Traveler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misfit Posted January 27 Report Share Posted January 27 (edited) 15 hours ago, Traveler said: Edited January 27 by misfit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDSGator Posted January 27 Report Share Posted January 27 @misfit, no matter what you choose to do here, we all wish you the best! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jersey Boy Posted January 27 Report Share Posted January 27 On 1/21/2024 at 12:45 AM, Looking for help said: Hi. I’m a life-long LDS member outside of a break from the church from ages 14-21. I’m in my 30’s now, sealed in the temple with three young kids, and have remained very active over the last 12+ years since I came back from my “break”. I have struggled over a multi-year period on the question if God is real. The point of this post is not to try and convince anyone that God is not real, I genuinely want to believe that He is and am looking for people to help me work through this issue. The nagging question that has dominated my mind is if men have made up religion over time to help themselves feel better about, and give purpose to, life. Everyone wants to know why they are on the earth, how they got here, where they go after. I understand logically that religion provides answers to these questions and that these answers (if believed faithfully) give us peace and purpose. What I can’t get out of my head is what if all these things were made up specifically to fill those gaps but is not true. I’m not calling anyone a liar or saying anyone is pretending to believe - I absolutely believe the leaders of our church (and most members) truly do believe it all and are not trying to mislead us in any way. I desperately wish that I didn’t have these doubts, but I do. What is life is just completely random and the bad things that happen to us are not part of a plan? What if all the suffering (a child dying, losing jobs, etc.) has no silver lining and are just random happenings that will make our lives worse. I struggle to see how God could allow a lot of things that happen in the world everyday - there are so many places where people suffer and die from hunger, people are regularly beaten and raped. A family with young children loses a mom or a dad. How can that be a part of God’s plan in any way? There are other more scientific questions about the Big Bang theory, dinosaurs existing, evolution, etc. that seem to be real things and in my mind and conflict with LDS beliefs. A lot of places where the LDS answer is that “we don’t know why these things happen”, but we should believe there is a reason. One of the parts where this messes with me the most is with death (if not obvious from my examples given above). I love my wife and kids more than anything, but what if there is no afterlife? What if I’m one random act (a car crash for example) away from losing a child, and if there is no afterlife then I will never be with them again? If there is no afterlife and I die in a car crash, what happens next to me? Blackness for ever? A natural defense for someone (especially a life-long member) to know that God is real is to think back on the spiritual experiences they have had as proof that God exists. But what if these experiences were figments of our own imagination that we have convinced ourselves of and didn’t actually happen? It is easy for me to see that believing in God / religion results in a better life overall - navigating all of life’s trials and tribulations is 100x easier if we believe that it is all a part of God’s plan; if we believe that all bad things that happen in the world are for a reason and all make sense / work for the best from the perspective of an omniscient God. A few years ago I came to the conclusion that I would not be able to PROVE God was real, but I also wouldn’t be able to prove the opposite. So if I can’t take solace in any spiritual experiences I’ve had to date because I’m worried that they were made up in my head, then since it can’t be PROVEN one way or the other, it’s simply a choice of believing or not. I am trying to choose to believe but it has been difficult to not let these doubts take over. I have tried to pray for confirmation but the thought of spiritual experiences possibly being made up is probably blocking that from happening. On a separate note, I have both lived in accordance with the gospel and have done the opposite, and can say I have a strong testimony that following things like the word of wisdom, our views on family / marriage. etc. will result in a happier life while on this earth. I have not deviated from these beliefs and regardless if I think God is real, I know this is the blueprint for the most happy / successful life on earth. So that is the core of my testimony for now: 1. I am trying to choose to believe that God is real (despite the doubts I have) and that everything the LDS church teaches is true. And 2. That following the gospel way of living will continue to bring the most happiness throughout life. I know this has been a long post and a bit all over the place, so thanks for sticking with me if you have. As I said above, I wish I didn’t have these doubts, but I do, and I’m trying to figure it all out. I would be grateful for any thoughts you have that may help me as I continue to try and work through this. What do you think you will gain if you decide to believe there is no God? I’m being quite serious about this. I’m very interested to learn how you think you might benefit if you decide to surrender to unbelief? zil2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anddenex Posted January 28 Report Share Posted January 28 The answers you are looking for are found within 1 Nephi 8. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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